Americas choice

[FireDragon76]

What limitations on worship were imposed on people under Obama?

Obama actually talked about Jesus far more than Trump ever has, which is practically never for all I recall. But still, he get's mischaracterized as anti-Christian.

The truth is that Obama was deeply Christian, just not the sort that is identifiable to many white, fundamentalist Christians in the US.

 

[Tom 1]

The Early Christians quoted the OT enough and there is abundant advice in that about how a Christian in a secular position of power might look. Daniel, Joseph David & Solomon to name but 4. Also Pauls interactions with secular authorities are illustrative of this. Once Christians achieved a majority in the population then this became a live issue. Constantine, Charlemagne, Alfred and many Russian Tsars are examples where this marriage of secular power and faith brought immense advantages. The Fourth Crusade, or Europes religious civil wars might be taken as an example on the other side by contrast

Yes well that illustrates the issue - is it worth compromising on the Christian religion as exemplified by Christ in order to gain wealth and influence for the Church. There's quite a difference between the role of the church in society and leaders of the Jewish nation and functionaries under empires where the Israelites were in exile or captivity. In that kind of scenario the position could be used to bring benefit to the Hebrew nation in practical, physical terms - which is what their needs were, as with Nehemiah - whereas no association with worldly government can bring about the spiritual benefits the church is supposedly organised around, which require the obverse, the renunciation of that kind of benefactor/supporter role to avoid the inevitable dilution of the church's purpose and message.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Early Christians quoted the OT enough and there is abundant advice in that about how a Christian in a secular position of power might look. Daniel, Joseph David & Solomon to name but 4. Also Pauls interactions with secular authorities are illustrative of this. Once Christians achieved a majority in the population then this became a live issue. Constantine, Charlemagne, Alfred and many Russian Tsars are examples where this marriage of secular power and faith brought immense advantages. The Fourth Crusade, or Europes religious civil wars might be taken as an example on the other side by contrast

You need a sober analysis of history, not nostalgia. Dr. David Wagschal, a Canadian historian, was a professor of Church history at St. Vladimir's Seminary in upstate New York at one time, and an expert on Byzantine culture and law, and in his own words, he loves to study and teach about Byzantine culture, but he'ld never wish living in Byzantium on his worst enemies.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

I see nothing but civil war in our future if the dems ever gain power again.

Republican Party must really be concerned about losing and having nothing to promise that would get people to vote for them (there is literally nothing on Trump’s campaign website telling what he would do for a second term) you are reduced to threatening to start civil war if they lose power. This isn’t a political party anymore, it’s a hostage taker. All of us our hostages held by you, either your party has power or we go to war.


Or maybe you are just being insanely hyperbolic with your language and would be wise to dial it back.

 

[Quartermaine]

Here's a list. Obama was regarded by many American Christians as one of the most biblically hostile presidents of all time

Why Obama Was Most Anti-Christian President

I was expecting blatant lies and tearful claims of victimhood - and your link did not disappoint.

From your link: "Which American president changed the White House Christmas cards from being about Christmas or faith to cards featuring the family dogs and similar non-Christmas related subjects?" That would be Republican President Herbert Hover in 1932. His the white house Christmas card featured the Hoover's dogs.

From your link: "Which president decorated the White House Christmas tree with ornaments that included figures such as Mao Zedong and a drag queen?" Actually none. The ornaments in question were one one of several community decorated trees in the white house. Neither the president or the first lady had anything to do with them. The author of your link knew that. But you can't smear a president or promote anti-gay bigotry by telling the truth now can you?

From your link: "Which president excluded pro-life groups from attending a White House-sponsored healthcare summit?" Yet somehow pro-life groups like the Catholic Health Association were there....hmmmm

I could go on.

 

[cow451]

You have most, if not all, of the right issues. Sadly, we have two poor candidates. Yes, there are a couple of strengths in each one of them but for the most part they will further the decline of America. If I had to choose, I would pick Trump because I think the Senate an the House will be run by democrats. Divided government in that case would be good.

No government led by someone of the character of Trump is going to be a good thing.

 

[cow451]

What limitations on worship were imposed on people under Obama?

He suppressed the discovery of Two Corinthians.

 

[Tom 1]

The phrase "freedom of worship" is problematic. It is the preferred phrase the Obama administration used rather than the older and more comprehensive "religious liberty". Or even better, use the first amendment's free exercise language as the exercise of religion is far more than what occurs in a building on Sunday morning (or Saturday if that's your thing). That means the right to express yourself in a manner consistent with your christian faith including how you run your business (Burwell vs Hobby Lobby stores), run your schools (Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church & School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which was a unanimous 9-0 decision siding with the church) or the type of health insurance you provide for your employees (Little Sisters of the Poor vs Azar). In other words the right to act as a christian in every avenue in life not just Sunday mornings. Freedom of worship addresses none of what I wrote. At the very least I think it's fair to say the Obama years were antagonistic towards churches.

It's hard to see how some of that wouldn't create a lot of division and antagonism. Would people keen to provide schools where Christian worship is part of the curriculum be just as keen to accept Islamic or Hindu schools (etc)? Those kind of ideas, like an employer deciding what medical coverage an employee can have, are pretty disturbing, and seem to go against the grain of the supposed American dislike of totalitarianism. If an employer or business feels it has the right to interfere with or criticise other people's right to live how they chose, and not be dictated to, then I don't see any good reason why there shouldn't be consequences for that. A secular government that operates under a paradigm of treating all citizens equally is less like to lead to pointless conflict and the tyranny of the small-minded. I suppose it would depend what the extent of it is - if the government is telling some religious educational institute who it should appoint to teach then that's a clear overreach, on the other hand in day to day civil society people should expect to be treated in the same way and not feel coerced to comply with any beliefs they don't hold. That's a recipe for unending and pointless conflict.

 

[cow451]

Obamas response, unlike 90% of presidents before him, was characterised by an understanding of the church state separation that meant the president could not behave like a Christian for fear of offending the others. But the result was bans on prayer in public schools and a degrading of the authority of the presidency in many Christians eyes.

Ahhh the OTP (Obama Time Portal) ..... I forgot he went back to the 1960’s and stopped prayer in public schools.

 

[cow451]

Obama actually talked about Jesus far more than Trump ever has, which is practically never for all I recall. But still, he get's mischaracterized as anti-Christian.

The truth is that Obama was deeply Christian, just not the sort that is identifiable to many white, fundamentalist Christians in the US.

Based on his actions and statements.... Trump and his loyal Christian supporters have persuaded me that the term “Christian“ is no longer an accurate label for me. From here forward I’ll simpler be a follower of Christ.

 

[FenderTL5]

Ahhh the OTP (Obama Time Portal) ..... I forgot he went back to the 1960’s and stopped prayer in public schools.

I know it's an aside and I apologize but; As time goes on, this is an issue that I see more and more with those with an evangelical/conservative mindset, the non-linear construct of time. Obama was responsible for things that happened in the 60s, the early Church read the King James Bible sort of thing. Things that are literally impossible when placed on a time-line but somehow gets ingrained into the psyche.

 

[Tom 1]

He suppressed the discovery of Two Corinthians.

Two Corinthians walked into a bar here the other day, I heard one ask what the other thought about Periander, the 2nd guy said he didn't like Thai food, whereupon the first asked if he was trying to coin a phrase and the guy said no but he just had some bad canal work and reckoned Sisyphus had an easier time of it so if the other guy didn't cut him some slack he was going to do a Mummius on him. Don't know what that was all about.

 

[cow451]

I know it's an aside and I apologize but; As time goes on, this is an issue that I see more and more with those with an evangelical/conservative mindset; the non-linear construct of time. Obama was responsible for things that happened in the 60s, the early Church read the King James Bible sort of thing. Things that are literally impossible when placed on a time-line but somehow gets ingrained into the psyche.

Did you not know that the King James Bible is the “real” Bible? Sad. Jesus plainly spoke Old English. Just read the New Testament. He’s quoted often.

 

[mindlight]

You need a sober analysis of history, not nostalgia. Dr. David Wagschal, a Canadian historian, was a professor of Church history at St. Vladimir's Seminary in upstate New York at one time, and an expert on Byzantine culture and law, and in his own words, he loves to study and teach about Byzantine culture, but he'ld never wish living in Byzantium on his worst enemies.

By comparison to the alternatives of the time not sure I would agree. But you would have had to been Greek Orthodox (not the end of the world). Jews had it hard under Byzantine Empire but most Christians in Middle East saw them as protectors. They were broadly right doctrinally though a little too hot on Marianity. It was the heretics that had a problem there.

 

[mindlight]

The phrase "freedom of worship" is problematic. It is the preferred phrase the Obama administration used rather than the older and more comprehensive "religious liberty". Or even better, use the first amendment's free exercise language as the exercise of religion is far more than what occurs in a building on Sunday morning (or Saturday if that's your thing). That means the right to express yourself in a manner consistent with your christian faith including how you run your business (Burwell vs Hobby Lobby stores), run your schools (Hosanna-Tabor Evangelical Lutheran Church & School v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which was a unanimous 9-0 decision siding with the church) or the type of health insurance you provide for your employees (Little Sisters of the Poor vs Azar). In other words the right to act as a christian in every avenue in life not just Sunday mornings. Freedom of worship addresses none of what I wrote. At the very least I think it's fair to say the Obama years were antagonistic towards churches.

Thanks so much for the clarification. I was just about to concede the point but of course your wider definition of religious liberty fits the ways in which Obama was only a blessing to Sunday Christians and not ones who wanted to live out their faith in the public square.

 

[FireDragon76]

By comparison to the alternatives of the time not sure I would agree. But you would have had to been Greek Orthodox (not the end of the world). Jews had it hard under Byzantine Empire but most Christians in Middle East saw them as protectors. They were broadly right doctrinally though a little too hot on Marianity. It was the heretics that a problem there.

Are you serious? Byzantine culture was grotesquely brutal and authoritarian and their Christianity was little more than a thin veneer covering over that with an aura of sanctity. The fruits of which are still visible in today's Russia, where poison and a makarov are the elements of politics far more than reasoned discourse that respects the dignity of the human person.

 

[mindlight]

Obama actually talked about Jesus far more than Trump ever has, which is practically never for all I recall. But still, he get's mischaracterized as anti-Christian.

The truth is that Obama was deeply Christian, just not the sort that is identifiable to many white, fundamentalist Christians in the US.

Obama was hardly a fundie when it came to faith. He may have been saved but he was very liberal and quite worldly in his theology. He was heavily influenced by the whole social justice and black liberation theology of Jeremiah Wright. He had an estranged Muslim father and a spiritually confused and pluralistic mother. When he talked about Jesus he was often talking about injustices committed against the black community. Fair enough but by itself it is not enough and in practice he appears to have eroded religious liberties and furthered non Christian causes. Many Americans were worried about his attitudes towards Islam. Any ways this thread is more about Biden v Trump

 

[FireDragon76]

I know it's an aside and I apologize but; As time goes on, this is an issue that I see more and more with those with an evangelical/conservative mindset, the non-linear construct of time. Obama was responsible for things that happened in the 60s, the early Church read the King James Bible sort of thing. Things that are literally impossible when placed on a time-line but somehow gets ingrained into the psyche.

Evangelicals (even Lutherans, whom I used to belong to), tend to believe that somehow their Bible as it is translated is part of a sacred history. Even if they are not explicit in doing so, it's implicit in how their churches function.

 

[mindlight]

Yes well that illustrates the issue - is it worth compromising on the Christian religion as exemplified by Christ in order to gain wealth and influence for the Church. There's quite a difference between the role of the church in society and leaders of the Jewish nation and functionaries under empires where the Israelites were in exile or captivity. In that kind of scenario the position could be used to bring benefit to the Hebrew nation in practical, physical terms - which is what their needs were, as with Nehemiah - whereas no association with worldly government can bring about the spiritual benefits the church is supposedly organised around, which require the obverse, the renunciation of that kind of benefactor/supporter role to avoid the inevitable dilution of the church's purpose and message.

Your profile says Rumania. I think your experience of religious liberty is superior to that of the Rumanian church under Communism. It was the same in Germany. The wounds of godless communism are still apparent today in Eastern European abortion rates for instance compared to the West

 

[FireDragon76]

Obama was hardly a fundie when it came to faith. He may have been saved but he was very liberal and quite worldly in his theology. He was heavily influenced by the whole social justice and black liberation theology of Jeremiah Wright. He had an estranged Muslim father and a spiritually confused and pluralistic mother. When he talked about Jesus he was often talking about injustices committed against the black community. Fair enough but by itself it is not enough and in practice he appears to have eroded religious liberties and furthered non Christian causes. Many Americans were worried about his attitudes towards Islam. Any ways this thread is more about Biden v Trump

No, Obama did talk about Jesus in a very recognizable Christian sense, for instance at Christmas one year he explicitly mentioned Jesus in a traditional Christian manner, as a source of truth and light.

Emphasis on social justice is a prominent feature of American mainline Protestantism, and has been since the 19th century. Obama belongs to the United Church of Christ, which is an historic denomination that is a merger between New England Congregationalists and German Protestant pietist immigrants from the EKD. Reinhardt Niebuhr, the author of the well-known Serenity Prayer, is probably its most recognizable theologian that you might be familiar with (or not, I don't know).