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'America is a nation of immigrants'

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by MorkandMindy, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    These words opened the longest paragraph in the Pelosi remarks at 2019 California Democratic Party state convention.

    As with most things I fall somewhat in the middle on this one, and I do not completely accept the case that is being made.

    The argument is that we / our ancestors came to this continent and therefore we are hypocrites if we say others can't.

    A slightly unfair counter example would be when a room with a fire regulation occupancy limit of 50 reached 70 (I was in that situation) and the meeting had to be brought to a close, for everyone.

    If someone had kept count then would it have been fairer to stop everyone after 50 from entering or would it have been fairer to do as was done, once occupancy exceeded the limit to end the meeting and all leave?
     
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  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    The USA have a very low population density, similar to Kyrgyzstan or Sweden.

    For example, its half of the population density of Ireland, one third of the population density of Austria, one fifth of population density of Switzerland, one tenth of the population density of Netherlands etc.

    So no, "there is not enough of space" is not a good argument. The USA is a huge country with very low population, compared to its area. Compare, for example, to Europe, how much smaller the continent is and and the population is twice as high (500 million Europeans vs 300 million Americans).

    Your limit is much higher than you can imagine, a billion people would still fit very well.

    Countries by Population Density 2018 - StatisticsTimes.com
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  3. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

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    Just consider what a catastrophy it would be if there were millions of additional babies born, when there's so clearly no space for them.
     
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  4. Servant of Yeshua

    Servant of Yeshua Love UR Enemies, Pray 4 those who persecute U

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    2 Chronicles 7:14
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019 at 8:56 AM
  5. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Very true, my 'slightly unfair counter example' I accidentally wrote with English understatement, it was actually more than a little unfair.

    But it does show that the meme 'you did it then, therefore you are a hypocrite if you say that anyone can't do it now' is not a valid meme.
     
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    But they will crowd into already crowded urban areas, exacerbating the problems associated with overpopulation that we now have. Few want to live in the barren and marginal areas of America. Even small towns, where the cost of living is low, are losing numbers. Small towns near big cities become 'bedroom communities' and in a few years the city expands and they become part of a large, overpopulated metro area.

    The clear answer is population reduction on a global scale.
     
  7. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    A far better case was made when some protesters climbed over the wall of the Pelosi mansion. The only right she had to put up that wall was she owned the property it was on and enclosed, and ditto no non American has any right to enter the United States.
     
  8. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Or no real need for them. :(

    I assume you are referring to those that have been aborted. That is a conundrum for sure.
     
  9. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    More to the point is we are a nation of immigrants WHO CAME HERE LEGALLY !!!!! Like my grandparents did. Nobody wants to face the legality situation. When my grandparents came here it was that you had a citizen here who sponsored you, you had documentation of immunizations, you had work, you had housing through your sponsor and you learned to speak English while here and then passed a test in order to stay and gain your own citizenship. Or what ? You didn't get in or got booted out if you were found to not comply. Today they waltz in and get absorbed into society spreading who knows what around.

    There is supposed to be order to this process. And people gleefully just accept the mess we have . Well you take them into your houses to live then, you put them up and find them work and don't drag them to the poles to vote till they are legal citizens and all signed up to vote...
     
  10. Shiloh Raven

    Shiloh Raven I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

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    The irony of seeing immigrants complaining about other immigrants in this thread is off the charts.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  11. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    When urban areas and small towns will be better for life than overpopulated megacities, people will move there and the problem will solve itself, no?
     
  12. Kentonio

    Kentonio Well-Known Member

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    When America was settled there was no barrier other than ‘can you afford the boat trip’, so no there wasn’t some big legal test in place that makes original immigrants sterling citizens and all the new people horrible invaders.
     
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  13. archer75

    archer75 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The idea behind saying such a thing should be "everyone here is or is descended from immigrants. Immigrants aren't degenerates."
     
  14. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Early on that was true but the boat ride was very expensive and this itself restricted immigration to those with skills and money.

    Later very large ships were built which were far cheaper per person hence the additional hurdles were added.
     
  15. Shiloh Raven

    Shiloh Raven I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

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    I wouldn't exactly use the word 'settled during America's inception. The birth of America brought nothing but disease, death and destruction to the Native Americans who were already living here.

    Did you know that this invasion of Europeans is referred to as a 'horde of locusts' among many NDNs? Why is that? It's because a horde of locusts devour and destroy everything within its path. There are some other references, but I wouldn't be allowed to post them here because of the goading rule.
     
  16. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    On population limits, I think it is fairly clear that we aren't talking square miles here or hectares, but resources.

    Using the figure for the maximum population the World topping out at 11 billion the Earth will have major CO2 and other serous problems within 15 years.

    The most effective way to really wreck the planet would be to move large numbers of people from low income countries into the US and ensure they share in the same wealth and therefore resources as the average person in the US currently consumes, and move low income people like myself on 11 dollars an hour up to 15 or more and let us share in the American Dream too. No amount of recycling or CO2 caps (how do you get that to work) will make any difference, the planet will rapidly become uninhabitable.
     
  17. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    You think that poor immigrants from southern America will somehow live with the same wealth as is the style of the most rich Americans and therefore bring the destruction to the planet? I think they will be quite successful if they will find a permanent low wage job.
     
  18. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    That would be because "illegal" immigration is less than 100 years old.

    Before the 1920's, any able bodied person could enter the country, unless they were Chinese. This was due to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 which also prohibited “any convict, lunatic, idiot, or any person unable to take care of himself or herself without becoming a public charge.” The first real test for immigrants came in 1917 which was a literacy test that could be taken in the immigrants native language. It wasn't until 1921 that Congress put immigration quotas in place.

    Think your immigrant ancestors came here legally? Think again | Opinion - nj.com

    What's interesting is the same arguments against immigrants a century ago are the same ones we hear today, only then it was Italians, Greeks, Jews, and the Irish that some had an issue with.

    Excerpts from the Congressional Debate on Immigration Restriction (1921)

    “I would like to shut for a time the immigration door. Thousands come here who never take the oath to support our Constitution and to become citizens of the United States . . . They fill places that belong to the loyal wage-earning citizens of America. They preach a doctrine that is dangerous and deadly to our institutions. They are no of service whatever to our people. They constitute a menace and danger to us every day.” -- James Thomas Heflin, From Alabama

    “Practically all of them were weak, small of stature, poorly clad, emaciated . . . It is for this reason that I say the class of immigrants coming to the shores of the United States at this time are not the kind of people we want as citizens in this country.” -- Representative James V. McClintic, Democrat from Oklahoma,

    “We should stop immigration entirely until such a time as we can amend our immigration laws and so write them that hereafter no one shall be admitted except he be in full sympathy with our Constitution and laws, willing to declare himself obedient to our flag, and willing to release himself form any obligations he may owe to the flag of the country from which he came . . . within a few short years the damage will have been done. The endless tide of immigration will have filled our country with a foreign and unsympathetic element. Those who are out of sympathy with our Constitution and the spirit of our Government will be here in large numbers, and the true spirit of Americanism left us by our fathers will gradually become poisoned by this uncertain element.” -- Representative Lucian Walton, Democrat from Texas

    What the speaker below says is just as true today as it was then:

    "Defenders of this bill thoughtlessly repeat the exploded theory that there have been two periods of immigration, the good period, which the chairman of the committee fixes up to the year 1900, and the bad period since. The strange thing about it is that at no time in history has any country made such rapid progress in industry, in science, and in the sphere of local legislation as this country has shown since 1900. To prevent immigration means to cripple the United States. Our most developed industrial States are those which have the largest immigration. Our most backward States industrially and in the point of literacy are those which have no immigration to speak of... The extraordinary and unprecedented growth of the United States is as much a cause as the effect of immigration. The new immigration is neither different nor worse, and besides that, identically the same arguments were used against the old immigration." -- Mr. Meyer London, Socialist-N.Y.

    Even long before the 1920's Ben Franklin was against German immigration:

    "Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs any more than they can acquire our Complexion?

    Which leads me to add one Remark, that the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny; Asia chiefly tawny; America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians, and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who, with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased."
    -- Benjamin Franklin, in 1751

    Not many Americans reading this thread today would have even been born if the laws we have today were in place when their ancestors arrived in the US.
     
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  19. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

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    You can’t see that this is an indication of just how desperate people are to get here?
    What is the “waiting period” for “legal immigration”?

    The move is to limit legal immigration to people of means, who would be welcomed anywhere; would your folks have qualified under such conditions?
     
  20. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    This entire thread is based on a false premise about what Nancy Pelosi was saying. You're correct, her argument is we are all descendants of immigrants, they are no degenerates. And it's also a false argument to say the issue is illegal immigration when the current regime is focused on curtailing all forms of immigration by rejecting more applicants and curtailing the many legal ways immigrants come to this country. This is about the hatred and demonization of any and all immigrants, regardless of their form of entry.
     
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