Amalek

[GeratTzedek]

Are you still talking to yourself? Just go to post 132.



Oh o, now I am in big trouble.

Here is post 132, which you reference. It in fact quite clearly states he is NOT talking about killing all muslims, the exact opposite of your accusation. I am therefore reporting you for slander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaDan
Therefore kill them? The warrant for this escapes me.

I never said that, and you will never find me saying that on this, or any other forum.

I simply said that the Religious war has already begun. We simply refuse to acknowledge it.

If defeating this ideology requires us to fight, as I believe it does, then better to do it now and get it over with while they are weak and divided and without nuclear weapons.

 

[CaDan]

GT--I did have a follow-up to that post.

 

[CaDan]

[size=+2]This is not my forum to moderate, but things are getting kind of hot. Let's try to keep it under control. It's just the Internet, folks.[/size]

 

[mikkyo]

Here is post 132, which you reference. It in fact quite clearly states he is NOT talking about killing all muslims, the exact opposite of your accusation. I am therefore reporting you for slander.

Ok fine, whatever. But this is what he said, "If defeating this ideology requires us to fight, as I believe it does, then better to do it now and get it over with while they are weak and divided and without nuclear weapons.

He has said on numerous occasions that Islam follows evil ideologies. So then what do you think he is saying?

 

[mikkyo]

How do we undo that culture? I submit that violence alone will not do it. There will always be a remnant who remembers. The cycle of vengeance must be broken.

It is too bad people cannot understand this.

 

[GeratTzedek]

The problem is that more people than just "terrorists" live in those houses. The problem is that an RPG fired into a house containing one "terrorist" is likely to kill a bunch of other people.

However much that may be a problem, it is not the moral equivilent of targetting innocents.

It is also a big problem that people choose to associate with terrorists, to live with them, to support their endeavors.

Let me offer a smaller scale analogy. Here in the USA, if someone commits a drug offense, the property is confiscated, even if that car or whatever is used by others, even if it BELONGS to others. It is a necessary rule of thumb in the war on drugs.

You have also claimed to be from a family of conversos.

I have claimed to come from a family that functions like a converso family. I have stated I believe my great great grandmother to have been a Jew. (1) This does NOT however automatically make me a Jew. I do not have the kind of evidence that will stand up in a Bet Din (Jewish court) and so I am not at this time halakhically Jewish. I am in the PROCESS of becoming a Jew. (2) My family was completely unaware of its Jewish descent. As I stated, we remembered what to do long after we forgot why we did it. I was raised to believe CHRISTIAN doctrine. My father was a Methodist pastor, not an observant Jew.

You have also claimed that Jewishness is indelible.

Let's assume for a moment that my descent is correctly understood and that I am a Jew, even if unrecognized yet by a Bet Din. Your point is that had I been RAISED Palestinian, I would see things differently. My reply is that I was not raised Jewish.

How do we undo that culture? I submit that violence alone will not do it. There will always be a remnant who remembers. The cycle of vengeance must be broken.

Which brings me back to my OP question. The only way to stop the vioolence is to irradicate the terrorist CULTURE, and that means destruction of women and children. I cannot think of a more horrible option. It is clearly the option G-d demanded of Israel towards Amalek. But if not this, then what?

A terrible dilemma.

 

[Secundulus]

Ok fine, whatever. But this is what he said, "If defeating this ideology requires us to fight, as I believe it does, then better to do it now and get it over with while they are weak and divided and without nuclear weapons.

He has said on numerous occasions that Islam follows evil ideologies. So then what do you think he is saying?

I will be very clear as to what I am saying. Certain portians of the Islamic world have declared religious war on us. This is not my imagination. This is their words. This is the words of the legally elected Government of the Palestinian people. Failure to acknowledge that fact is not moral superiority. It is instead the attitude of a poltroon.

Is that clear enough. If not, I will try and restate it again.

 

[GeratTzedek]

GT--I did have a follow-up to that post.

Hey, I asked for the post and quote backing the assertion. Thereplied referencing post 132. Post 132 not only does not substantiate the assertion, but states the opposite. The report for slander has been made.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Ok fine, whatever. But this is what he said, "If defeating this ideology requires us to fight, as I believe it does, then better to do it now and get it over with while they are weak and divided and without nuclear weapons.

He has said on numerous occasions that Islam follows evil ideologies. So then what do you think he is saying?

Context, context. You are quoting and purporting it to mean something he clearly stated he did NOT believe. This is slander, and it is immoral. It also violates the rules of the forum.

Again, post 132 in its entirety:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaDan
Therefore kill them? The warrant for this escapes me.

I never said that, and you will never find me saying that on this, or any other forum.

I simply said that the Religious war has already begun. We simply refuse to acknowledge it.

If defeating this ideology requires us to fight, as I believe it does, then better to do it now and get it over with while they are weak and divided and without nuclear weapons.

 

[Secundulus]

It is too bad people cannot understand this.

Unfortunately, it is not true. History is replete with examples to the contrary. I will mention a few.

Gaul never again threatened Rome.
The Scots are peaceful members of the UK.
The Apache no longer raid settlements.
Japan has become pacifistic.

Do you want more? This cycle of violence statement is nonsense useful only to those countries without the will to act decisively.

 

[CaDan]

However much that may be a problem, it is not the moral equivilent of targetting innocents.

It is still an evil thing to do. Perhaps less evil, but evil nonetheless.

It is also a big problem that people choose to associate with terrorists, to live with them, to support their endeavors.

Yes, but do they thereby earn death? It seems problematic. It is especially problematic if merely associating with one who has been targeted for death by the State is in itself a death sentence.

Let me offer a smaller scale analogy. Here in the USA, if someone commits a drug offense, the property is confiscated, even if that car or whatever is used by others, even if it BELONGS to others. It is a necessary rule of thumb in the war on drugs.

1. People are not "things" to be forfeited.

2. Criminal forfeiture is based upon two bases: Admiralty jurisdiction and deodand forfeiture. The former is necessary because of the strange sovereignty issues involved with the law of nations and how one punishes the owner of a craft who resides in a foreign jurisdiction. The second is a strange leftover from the idea that items could be cursed if they shed innocent blood.

(I cut my teeth at a white collar criminal defense firm--it all comes flooding back sometimes . . . . )


*snip*

Which brings me back to my OP question. The only way to stop the vioolence is to irradicate the terrorist CULTURE, and that means destruction of women and children. I cannot think of a more horrible option. It is clearly the option G-d demanded of Israel towards Amalek. But if not this, then what?

The OP? Wazzat?

A couple of responses:

1. The Amalekite solution simply never worked. Ancient Israel was constantly under threat by all sorts of folks.

2. I have seen no evidence that attempting to kill everyone actually kills the culture.

3. Mob and individual violence is not inherent to the culture.

4. The way out seems to be to kill the part of the culture that is destructive. That does not mean killing all individuals, though. The culture can survive the death of individuals.

 

[CaDan]

I will be very clear as to what I am saying. Certain portians of the Islamic world have declared religious war on us. This is not my imagination. This is their words. This is the words of the legally elected Government of the Palestinian people. Failure to acknowledge that fact is not moral superiority. It is instead the attitude of a poltroon.

You have a cite for that?

 

[GeratTzedek]

You have a cite for that?

Oh my gosh, where have you been?

 

[GeratTzedek]

1. The Amalekite solution simply never worked. Ancient Israel was constantly under threat by all sorts of folks.

And where are the Amalekites now?

 

[uberd00b]

I'm not "demonizing" anyone. I am pointing out the fact that evicting people and bulldozing the homes of terrorists is simply not morally equivilent to targeting babies for death.

I should remind you first, that I am NOT a Jew by birth, but by choice.

Second, I have already stated that there is a problem with Palestinian CULTURE passing on an ethic of excuse making, anti-semitism, and terrorism to each new generation. So you and I agree that had I been born Palestinian, I would likely have been so deeply enculturated into this that I would not be able to tell heads from tales.

But that's exactly what labeling them the Amalek is, demonising them.

I don't believe anyone on this thread has said that bulldozing homes is morally equivalent to killing babies, that would be ludicrous.

I'm suggest to you that there is a problem within Jewish culture of demonising the Palestinians, anti-semitism and teaching hatred to the next generation. You're demonstrating your susceptibility to it right here. Don't believe me?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6SD9KSvFG58

This problem is caused by their religion primarily, and their experience secondarily.

I've seen a video of a gang of about 30 Israelis following a bunch of Palestinian schoolkids down the street throwing rocks and taunting them with insults. There is a deep hatred ingrained in both societies and it's absolutely disgusting.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Unfortunately, it is not true. History is replete with examples to the contrary. I will mention a few.

Gaul never again threatened Rome.
The Scots are peaceful members of the UK.
The Apache no longer raid settlements.
Japan has become pacifistic.

Do you want more? This cycle of violence statement is nonsense useful only to those countries without the will to act decisively.

Well 3 out of four ain't bad. You are mistaken to think that Scotland is content to be a part of England. The day of Scottish independence is coming.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I don't believe anyone on this thread has said that bulldozing homes is morally equivalent to killing babies, that would be ludicrous.

The implication is obvious. When Israel, which bulldozes homes, is seen as bad as or even worse than Hamas, which targets babies for death, it is placing Israeli actions on the same moral level (or worse) than the actions of Hamas. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Secundulus]

You have a cite for that?

Yes. It is here in a speech two weeks ago by a Palestinian Member of Parliament. http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1739.htm

 

[mikkyo]

I will be very clear as to what I am saying. Certain portians of the Islamic world have declared religious war on us. This is not my imagination. This is their words. This is the words of the legally elected Government of the Palestinian people. Failure to acknowledge that fact is not moral superiority. It is instead the attitude of a poltroon.

Is that clear enough. If not, I will try and restate it again.

Ok fine, let me ask you this. Do you really think we can eliminate terrorism in the world? Does tit for tat really work with Old Testament laws and Islamic ideologies?

 

[uberd00b]

Wow there's quite a few videos on youtube which illustrate the deep divisions within the cultures. The settlers particularly, who are largely distrusted by the main Israeli populace as they tend to be foreigners (often Americans) and ultra-orthodox, can be particularly vile to the common Palestinian.

Let's try an exercise in empathy, if you were an ordinary person trying to go back to your olive grove and you experienced this how would you feel?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JMA3baJa6tg

There but for the grace of God go us...seriously.