Am I Trinitarian?

[Sunrunner]

I've always thought I believed the Trinity, but I just realized I don't even know what the Trinity doctrine teaches exactly.

Here is what I believe:

The Godhead consists of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that they are each eternal and equal in purpose, but not the same being.

I base this on John 5:7 and 8.

5:7 says: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This defines the Godhead, of course.

Then the next verse explains the Godhead:

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (Added word in italics)

Now, obviously blood, water, and spirit are not the same substance. It says that they "bear witness in earth." I believe that these are baptisms. We are born of the Spirit, we are baptized in water, and we are cleansed with the blood of Christ. Now these three are not one and the same any more than the Father, Son, and Spirit are: They are however, one in purpose.

So that is my belief and a tidbit from where I got it.

Is that the Trinity doctrine?

 

[supernova165]

I think I agree with all that you said, apart from (if im being picky) where you said, "but not the same being".

I agree that they are three different 'people', but are also God.

All God, but also three separtate.

I think of it as, steam, water and ice. They are all H2O and all the qualitys of H2O, but each has their own qualitys.

I hope I answers ok.

 

[eoe]

steam, water and ice.

You are on the edge of the heresy of modalism with this statement.


This might help - if there is only one thing that the Orthodox have right it is the doctrine of the Trinity.

ANSWER:

According to the Orthodox teaching, God is always and forever unknowable and incomprehensible to creatures. Even in the eternal life of the Kingdom of God -- heaven , as we say -- men will never know the essence of God, that is, what God really is in Himself.

But we believe and confess that God the "ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing God," to use the words of the Orthodox liturgy, has made Himself known to creatures. He has revealed Himself in the creation of man and the world, in the Old Testament Law and the Prophets, and fully and perfectly in Christ through the Holy Spirit in the New Testament Church.

In every way that God reveals Himself, He does so through His Son (or Word-Logos) and through the Holy Spirit. It is the same Son and Spirit through whom God made the world, through whom God revealed Himself in the Old Testament, through whom God enlightens and makes alive every man in the world ... that come to us personally in the New Testament Church. The Son comes as a man in the person of Jesus Christ -- we have discussed this already. The Spirit comes to those who believe in Christ in order to make them sons of God in Him.

Thus we have always and everywhere God the Father, the Son of God who comes as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. In the Orthodox Church we confess that these three are not three competitive gods, divided, and separated from each other. On the contrary we believe that the Father, who is the Source of all that exists, always has His Son and His Spirit who are not creatures, Who were not made like everything and everyone else, but Who exist eternally with Him; from, in and by His very own divine being.

Thus what God the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit also are, namely: eternal, perfect, good, wise, holy, timeless, spaceless ... divine and worthy of the title GOD.

We believe as well that each of the three divine persons is divine in his own unique way, yet always living and acting in the perfectly absolute unity of the divine truth and love. Thus the Three are one not only because what they are is one and the same, but because their divine union allows of no separation or duality or division whatsoever.

We must hasten to point out here that the Orthodox teaching about the Holy Trinity is not an "abstract dogma" thought up by some clever minds. It is the expression on the level of words -- which are always and of necessity inadequate to reality -- of the loving experience of God in the Church. The doctrine of the Trinity is the product of man's living communion with the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit.

 

[tulc]

You are on the edge of the heresy of modalism with this statement.

...how so?
tulc(not arguing just curious)

 

[Tonks]

...how so?
tulc(not arguing just curious)

It breaks God into three separate aspects rather than three distinct persons.

 

[ReformedChapin]

It breaks God into three separate aspects rather than three distinct persons.

Define aspects and persons,the water example just shows seperation of three beings with the same essence.

 

[Sunrunner]

Ermm.. well, I don't think Jesus is God. I think Jesus is a part of the Godhead though and shared in the divine nature of God (hence, we've seen the Father when we've seen Jesus).

 

[oldsage]

Define aspects and persons,the water example just shows seperation of three beings with the same essence.

They don't exist that way at the same time, it is either liquid, water or ice. but it isn't in all three states at the same time.

This would be modalism.

There really isn't any physical example we can point to which shows the Trinity, all examples fail in some way in their portrayal of the Trinity. It either shows Modalism or Tri-theism.

Respectfully,
Chris

 

[oldsage]

Ermm.. well, I don't think Jesus is God. I think Jesus is a part of the Godhead though and shared in the divine nature of God (hence, we've seen the Father when we've seen Jesus).

One of the problems with this view is you are dividing God into parts, which one of the attributes of God is that He is simple, meaning, He cannot be divided into parts. If you say that Jesus is 'part' of the Godhead, then you are saying that God has division, which cannot be for a timeless being which exist outside of time.
Now, you are either God or not God, you are not 'part' god. Being God is a black and white thing, you either are or aren't.

If you are saying that Jesus isn't God then you are saying He was created at some point in time. if that is the case then you fall into the heresy of Arianism which was condemned at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. It was one of the earlies heresies of the church..

Respectfully,
Chris

 

[Sunrunner]

Then... I'm not Trinitarian I guess. I thought what I believed was the Trinity.

Hmm. What now? Non-Trinis aren't allowed to post here. What do I do?

 

[WarriorAngel]

St Patrick showed the Godhead well.

The clover.

One plant, Three parts in One. As the clover has three leafs on one stem.

 

[icxn]

Then... I'm not Trinitarian I guess. I thought what I believed was the Trinity.

Hmm. What now? Non-Trinis aren't allowed to post here. What do I do?

Changing your view is not an option?

Btw do all SDAs share the same view as yours?

 

[Sunrunner]

Changing my view is not an option.

Also, no, SDAs in general believe in what eoe posted. The Church founders believed in what I believe in, though, which is the funny part.

So do I have stop posting here? What sections can Non-Trins post in?

 

[Athaliamum]

They don't exist that way at the same time, it is either liquid, water or ice. but it isn't in all three states at the same time.

This would be modalism.

Who is to say they can't exist that way at the same time? A H2O example has the limitations of scientific laws but God doesn't. God being limitless could very well be three different forms at the one time steaming from the one personality. To say it can't be so is to limit God - limiting God is always a dangerous thing to do.

 

[Iollain]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/s/1160794775-7522.html

Sunrunner, if you want to see that the Trinity is the same One God, read all the verses that have the word Spirit in them, of course sometimes 'spirit' will mean man's spirit or angels, so just the capital 'S' ones.

 

[oldsage]

Who is to say they can't exist that way at the same time? A H2O example has the limitations of scientific laws but God doesn't. God being limitless could very well be three different forms at the one time steaming from the one personality. To say it can't be so is to limit God - limiting God is always a dangerous thing to do.

I did not say God is limited, I said the example of liquid, gas, and ice is limited. That example follows how modelsim works not how the doctrine of the Trinity works. So, I have no idea where you are going with the limiting God line.

Respectfully,
Chris

 

[Tonks]

Ermm.. well, I don't think Jesus is God.

If you think that I fail to see how you can consider yourself Christian. To deny that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man is to throw out His redemptive act and flush all of Christianity down the toilet. To say that Jesus Christ is not God at all is even more troubling.

 

[oldsage]

Changing my view is not an option.

Also, no, SDAs in general believe in what eoe posted. The Church founders believed in what I believe in, though, which is the funny part.

So do I have stop posting here? What sections can Non-Trins post in?

I was an atheist. If I said changing my views is not an option, then I would still be an atheist.

as Christians we grow, views will change as you learn more.

As far as can you post in GT, yes, it is just your post can't go against orthodox christianity. Take me for instance, I am a monist and I believe in annihilationism, but I do not post on here in support of those views, I would go to Unorthodox Theology, or in a subsection that allows for that view.
Now, you can post things in GT which deal with how somethings of orthodox theology are understood or post things which the rules for this section doesn't cover, like Sabbath, Feast, Pluralism, or Monism. Law and Grace, and other areas which can fall under General which doesn't have a subsection.

Respectfully,
Chris

 

[Iollain]

If you read the Spirit verses you'll see that Jesus is God.

 

[Sunrunner]

as Christians we grow, views will change as you learn more.

And sometimes as Christians we hold fast, uncompromising in the face of terrible error.

If you think that I fail to see how you can consider yourself Christian. To deny that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man is to throw out His redemptive act and flush all of Christianity down the toilet. To say that Jesus Christ is not God at all is even more troubling.

I am not saying Jesus is not fully divine and fully man. To deny that Jesus is God is not to deny His divinity. There is a Divine unity of the Father and Son, but they are not the same person (nor are they two persons as one person).