Am I really a Christian?

[PurpleRain]

I've been struggling a lot for awhile now, with a few things that I won't mention, and it's caused a lot of trouble in my faith. Through my struggles I've come to know a lot of new people, a lot of people who I've met both in 'real life' and online. A lot of these people are people who would not be.. accepted, we'll say.. among the majority of Christians. But still, they are the nicest people you could ever imagine meeting. They are supportive, helpful, and generally just great people.

But many of them don't believe in God, and many of them have participated in things, and call themselves things, that are frowned upon in the bible. But I just can't agree with the fact that people this nice, this helpful and supportive, this good of friends, could be sent to Hell.

I just think that there HAS to be more too it than Heaven, Hell, and maybe even purgatory. God can't expect all of us to be believers, but simply because we might deny him shouldn't mean we should be deemed as sinners.

So then I start thinking that maybe the Christians have got it wrong. Maybe there really is no Hell. Yesterday I started looking at Mormon beliefs, and I like their idea of Heaven; the believers and the good people go to the ultimate level of Heaven, and the good people still get to go to Heaven, but they are sent to a lower less admirable level of Heaven.

It just makes so much more sense to me. There are so many Christian beliefs I don't agree with, but I want desperately to be a Christian. I've always been a Christian, I have to be a Christian.. right?

Because I've grown up believing that it's the only way to be saved. But if I hold on to a religion that I don't 100% agree with yet tell people that I do, does that make me a sinner?

I believe in the Christian God. I try my best to be a good person. But is that really enough to make me a Christian?

I wish I could be confident in my faith, but it just seems like such a battle, and right now it's going downhill.

 

[ebia]

Christianity is not about "going to heaven when you die", but about God putting right everything that is wrong with this world in, through and for us, and resurrecting us into that put-right New Creation.

 

[Uptown Girl]

Purple, you have opened a lot of questions here. The thing about the Bible and what it says is this... whether we "believe" it or "like" it, it's true. It's the Word of God. (No discussion on how I know that, or getting off topic here.) There is a heaven and a hell, again, whether we like it or not, whether it make sense or not... whether we think a "good God" would send us to hell or not.... God does not send us there, WE make that choice. It's up to us, not Him on the decisions me make.

About the friends who are "sinners" but good people (ie., I think you may be referring to homosexual, drug users, alcoholics.. etc.)... When we are un-saved we are just that~unsaved. Becoming saved (Ephesians 2:8-9) doesn't make us good people, but people bound-for-heaven, people saved by God's grace.

I love the cry of your heart here.. and at this point you can make a very important decision in your life. You are already saying you want to be a Christian (Christ follower) and now all you have to do is take action.

A~ Admit to God you are a sinner (we all are.)
B~ Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.
C~Confess your sins to Him

It's that easy. Don't worry about not saying the "correct" words... or about all the "what if's" that come to mind. Dedicate yourself to Him first and then seek him with all your heart.

Huggggggs

 

[drich0150]

Being a "good person" has little to do with Christianity. Because being "Good" is a matter of perspective, and is based on circumstance. when surrounded by "bad" people one has to do very little "good" to be considered a good person.

That's why God calls us to be Righteous and not Good. True righteousness is measured by a perfect standard, one that no one can obtain on their own. this is where the whole belief in Jesus is so important. Because without this belief we can not have atonement or forgiveness for not meeting this righteous standard. Without atonement we can not have a relationship, with a relationship with God why would you even want to goto Heaven? Let alone deserve it.

 

[salida]

This is what christianity is about, http://www.livingwater.com/good/

If you loves Jesus, you will follow is Word (Bible). Just like if you love a spouse, you will respect them and do what they say. What if I married someone, but had total disregard for them? God doesn't send people to hell-they send themselves because the desire a different live than what God desires. Its not about rules, but God is our Father who doesn't want us to get burnt by a hot stove when we place our finger on the stove.

 

[Van]

Hi Purple Rain, not being God, I cannot know if you are a born again Christian. Folks that hold errant views can get to heaven, but as one escaping from a fire, bringing little or no rewards with them. From my perspective, you seem not to understand what the Bible says, because much of what you say you do not believe in does not mesh with the Bible.

Once a person is saved, it is import to present the gospel to others, and so if your view is sufficiently in error, then whoever believes in "your gospel" will not be saved.

Let's just deal with a few of them. You say God cannot expect everyone to be a believer. This is true, but on what basis do you believe God expects everyone to be a believer? The fact is God desires all men to be believers, but rather than compel that outcome, He sets before us the choice of life or death.

Now why are we "deemed" sinners. Because by the sin of the one (Adam) the many (mankind) were made sinners. Does this mean we are guilty of any particular sin? Nope. It means as a consequence of Adam being separated from God (his spiritual death) all of mankind are also conceived in a separated from God spiritual state. So to be made a sinner means being made (conceived) in the same separated from God state that Adam's sin brought about. Now when we individually sin, that would also result in separation if we were not already in that separated from God sinful state. But when we are conceived we have not done anything good or bad, and therefore no sin and an appropriate punishment for that sin is on our books. So if a person would die before they had a chance to do anything good or bad, they would be an unbeliever and not enter heaven, but at their judgment they would not face any punishment. Perfect justice might entail letting them rest in peace, never suffering at all.

As to your premise that a person could live a life without trespassing God's commands, that is highly unlikely. The Bible only tells us of one person who did not sin, and that was Christ Himself. Have you read the account of the "rich young ruler" (Matthew 19) where he thought he had kept all the commandments? He looked at himself as self-sufficient - that he could obtain eternal life by doing stuff, i.e. works of the law.

But he loved his worldly treasures, for he had many possessions, more than he loved Christ. He was unwilling to turn away from his self-sufficiency and trust in God. So he obviously did not even keep the first commandment to love God with all your heart because his worldly treasures also had a place in his heart. Bottom line, a person can think they are "good" when in fact they are a wretched sinner, just like the rest of us.

Trying to be good has nothing to do with becoming a Christian. On the other hand a Christian will strive to follow Christ and Christ is good.

Last point, in Matthew 5 Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Now the word translated "poor" refers to someone who begs for their needs and desires as opposed to another kind of poor person who has next to nothing and earns by daily labor his needs such as food. The rich young ruler was not poor in spirit or beggarly in spirit, he was self-sufficient in spirit, and of course he did not choose to trust in the sufficiency of Christ. Food for thought.

 

[aiki]

I've been struggling a lot for awhile now, with a few things that I won't mention, and it's caused a lot of trouble in my faith. Through my struggles I've come to know a lot of new people, a lot of people who I've met both in 'real life' and online. A lot of these people are people who would not be.. accepted, we'll say.. among the majority of Christians. But still, they are the nicest people you could ever imagine meeting. They are supportive, helpful, and generally just great people.

There are a great many people who are quite nice by our standards but who are not Christians. Being nice, however, isn't the criterion by which one is defined as a Christian. Besides, as someone has already noted, "nice" or "good" is a somewhat relative term.

But many of them don't believe in God, and many of them have participated in things, and call themselves things, that are frowned upon in the bible.

So, being nice, supportive and helpful to you means that denying God and disobeying Him is okay?

But I just can't agree with the fact that people this nice, this helpful and supportive, this good of friends, could be sent to Hell.

Everyone deserves to go to Hell. The only reason we aren't all headed there is God's mercy. Even the nicest person compared to a perfectly holy God looks vile and rotten. Thus, when it comes to God's judgment, the issue isn't whether or not Sally is nicer or more supportive than Beth (or whoever), but whether or not they know and have accepted Christ as their Saviour and Lord. Only his perfect righteousness applied to us makes us acceptable to God.

I just think that there HAS to be more too it than Heaven, Hell, and maybe even purgatory. God can't expect all of us to be believers, but simply because we might deny him shouldn't mean we should be deemed as sinners.

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 3:36 (NKJV)
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

So, the Bible disagrees with you. Why do you think your line of reasoning is superior to the Word of God?

So then I start thinking that maybe the Christians have got it wrong. Maybe there really is no Hell. Yesterday I started looking at Mormon beliefs, and I like their idea of Heaven; the believers and the good people go to the ultimate level of Heaven, and the good people still get to go to Heaven, but they are sent to a lower less admirable level of Heaven.

Well, maybe in time you'll prefer the Muslim faith to Mormonism, and then Buddhism to Islam, and then perhaps, if it tickles your fancy, you'll switch to Hinduism, and then, after you find something about Hinduism that doesn't suit you, you'll turn to Satanism or paganism...My point is that you seem to be coming to the idea of religion as a person does a buffet. You pick and choose what you like and leave the rest. Unfortunately, all you end up with this way is your own patchwork religion that is nothing more than a mirror of yourself. The only God you'll find in such a religion is you.

It just makes so much more sense to me. There are so many Christian beliefs I don't agree with, but I want desperately to be a Christian. I've always been a Christian, I have to be a Christian.. right?

You have to be a Christian? If you want to know and walk with God and spend eternity in joyful fellowship with Him, yes.

Because I've grown up believing that it's the only way to be saved. But if I hold on to a religion that I don't 100% agree with yet tell people that I do, does that make me a sinner?

Look, if you are truly born-again, the Holy Spirit of God resides within you. And if the Spirit of the Almighty Creator of the Universe is dwelling within you, you are going to know it. "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God," the Bible says (Ro. 8:16). If this were true of you, I highly doubt you'd be writing the things you have in this thread. Certainly, the holy influence of God's Spirit at work in you would make involving yourself intimately with people who are in rebellion to Him very difficult.

I believe in the Christian God. I try my best to be a good person. But is that really enough to make me a Christian?

No. You must be born again. Being a Christian isn't merely about believing the God of the Bible exists. Such a belief even demons possess. (Jas. 2:19) A Christian is one who has accepted by faith that Christ has died on the cross for his/her sins, has repented of their sins, and who has submitted his/herself to the will of God.

Romans 10:9-13
9 ...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

I wish I could be confident in my faith, but it just seems like such a battle, and right now it's going downhill.

I think what may be happening is that God is using your present doubts and questions to clarify for yourself what Christianity really is.

Peace.

 

[Emmy]

Dear PurpleRain. What does Jesus want from His followers? Jesus came to show us God as He really is, a loving Heavenly Father, who is waiting to forgive us and live with Him for eternity. We have all wandered too far away from God, following our selfish wishes and forgetting that God is Love. Jesus became our Saviour, He died that we might live, He reconciled us to God. Jesus told us to Repent, to exchange our selfish and wilful character for a loving selflessly one. 1) Love God with all our beings, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Jesus told the Pharisees that on these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and all the Prophets. God also gave us free will, we can return to God, or go our own way. For those who do not want to return to God, who rather go their own way, there is a place in Outer Darkness without God`s Love or Light. There can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth, no doubt, because those poor souls realise too late ho wrong they were, in not believing God. As for sending people to hell, it is one of Satan`s crafty lies. Hell is for Satan and his followers. Christ showed us God how He is really, Christ vanquished Satan and Death on Golgotha, and Christ is waiting to help and guide us back to God. Are you a Christian? dear PurpleRain? I say this with love and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Sketcher]

But many of them don't believe in God, and many of them have participated in things, and call themselves things, that are frowned upon in the bible. But I just can't agree with the fact that people this nice, this helpful and supportive, this good of friends, could be sent to Hell.

I myself have known non-Christians that I genuinely liked, and by human standards are right decent people. I couldn't imagine them going to Hell either. But I know they must if they reject Jesus. So what did I do with that? I prayed for them to be saved all the more, if I could pick a few people who could be saved, these people would be at the top of the list. These are the people I pray for the most. Maybe one day, they will in fact come to know Jesus.

I just think that there HAS to be more too it than Heaven, Hell, and maybe even purgatory. God can't expect all of us to be believers, but simply because we might deny him shouldn't mean we should be deemed as sinners.

So then I start thinking that maybe the Christians have got it wrong. Maybe there really is no Hell. Yesterday I started looking at Mormon beliefs, and I like their idea of Heaven; the believers and the good people go to the ultimate level of Heaven, and the good people still get to go to Heaven, but they are sent to a lower less admirable level of Heaven.

That makes sense on some level, but think about this: If there is no Hell, or you've got to be Charles Manson to go there, what are we being saved from? Why do we call Jesus our Savior if we're not in danger of Hell to begin with? And if we're not in danger of Hell, does that really justify the ordeal Jesus went through on the cross? Does it make more sense for him to go through that in order to save someone from an eternity of agony, or more sense to go through those horrors so that same person can have, as far as Heaven goes, first-class rather than coach?

 

[PurpleRain]

I typed something else here, but I think it might have been seen as offensive. Sorry.

Thank you all for your replies. I appreciate them.

 

[PurpleRain]

There are a great many people who are quite nice by our standards but who are not Christians. Being nice, however, isn't the criterion by which one is defined as a Christian. Besides, as someone has already noted, "nice" or "good" is a somewhat relative term.



So, being nice, supportive and helpful to you means that denying God and disobeying Him is okay?

Of course it's not okay, and it should be recognized. But it shouldn't be more important than all of the things you have done for others in your life, and all of the time you have spent bettering the world. Does that count for nothing? God is important, but so is helping others and improving His world. Just because you don't do one doesn't mean you don't deserve credit for the other.

So, the Bible disagrees with you. Why do you think your line of reasoning is superior to the Word of God?

Why does the Word of God have to be superior to everything? I can't have any thoughts as long as they aren't approved by the Bible? I can't be the person I want to be if I'm not approved by God? If you ask me, my faith would really hold me back if this were the case. I may be a Christian, but I am more than that as well. I am a daughter, a student, a sister, etc. And everything I am BUT a Christian, tells me that everyone should be accepted for who they are. I have in my mind exactly who the perfect person is, and don't you agree that the perfect person should love you unconditionally, not only if you're straight, and only if you believe in him/her?

Well, maybe in time you'll prefer the Muslim faith to Mormonism, and then Buddhism to Islam, and then perhaps, if it tickles your fancy, you'll switch to Hinduism, and then, after you find something about Hinduism that doesn't suit you, you'll turn to Satanism or paganism...My point is that you seem to be coming to the idea of religion as a person does a buffet. You pick and choose what you like and leave the rest. Unfortunately, all you end up with this way is your own patchwork religion that is nothing more than a mirror of yourself. The only God you'll find in such a religion is you.

I've been a Christian for fourteen years. I've never even considered another Religion. I was baptized Christian as a baby, so I do feel that I have the right to look into other religions, wouldn't you say? There are thousnads of beliefs out there, so how can you honestly say that the Christian faith is the only one who is right? Out of the millions of beliefs?[/quote]

You have to be a Christian? If you want to know and walk with God and spend eternity in joyful fellowship with Him, yes.

I bet that's what the Jewish people, the Hindus, and the Muslims say too. Just saying.

 

[Sketcher]

The bottom line is that I have morals that I hold very close to myself; that everyone should be accepted, that everyone deserves a reward for the time they spend for others, and for the good they do in life. Not everyone is going to believe, but they still deserve to be accepted. But the Bible tells me completely different. I've never had a problem with my morals. But I've had many problems with the bible.

Here's the impasse as I see it: He's God, we're not. He gets to make the rules, we don't. We need his mercy, we do not deserve his favor. But you're taking the opposite stance here. This is like someone who owes a lot of money demanding that the debt be reduced, canceled, or repaid on his terms. But it's the other guy, who is owed the money who has the right to reduce, cancel, or set the terms of payment on the debt. Likewise, we can't dictate anything to God. He made us. He is in charge. All rights come from him.

The bible tells me to leave the judging to God and to be accepting of others. Yet then it tells me that homosexuals are sinners, and that God doesn't accept them. Oh, and that God doesn't accept alcoholics, drug addicts, nonbelievers. If I'm supposed to be accepting of everyone and everything I can be, then shouldn't God be?

It sounds like you're confused about what Scripture means when it says not to judge. We can judge sinful actions. We are not to judge hidden motives. We don't know all motives and circumstances - but God does. Furthermore, we ourselves are sinful, yet God is not - this means that God can rightly judge people without getting haughty and falling into sin. People aren't so good at that. Also, we since we are all accountable to God for our sins, we don't have the right to really look down on one another.

And how am I supposed to believe that God is perfect if he used to promote stoning people, and if he has allowed so much suffering go on in the world?

God instituted the death penalty in order to stem violence. Otherwise, violent people would run roughshod over everyone else all the more. If there were no orderly system of capital punishment, think about how many more vendettas would be going on. And think about how many more innocents would be harmed by the vicious.

As for why there is all this suffering? Free will of a fallen race.

If God were perfect, he would accept EVERYONE, not just the believers. It sounds to me sometimes like all God wants is praise, and if you don't give it to him than you get punished. That doesn't sound fair to me at all.

God is perfect. Because he is perfect, he cannot accept unbelievers. Technically, he doesn't even need to accept believers, since we are all unholy and God is as holy as holy can be. We should be thankful for the amnesty he has given us, take him up on his offer, and praise him a lot, because he deserves it.

Another thing, what exactly is the problem with homosexuality? The only reason I have ever been given for homosexuality being such a terrible thing is that "it says so in the Bible." But if this is what we are supposed to believe, don't we deserve a reason?

The reason is God said it is off limits. He defined marriage and what is morally acceptable sexually. Outside of those boundaries, people get hurt because we're not built for those relations.

 

[Texan40]

I would argue that Jesus Christ himself took pains to be kind and loving to everyone. Did he only engage the righteous? Did he not wash the feet of the average sinners as well as his disciples? People who call themselves "Christians" but proceed to defy God and Jesus Christ by settings themselves above others are anything but.

I understand that you have a kind heart and would never wish harm on anyone else. God likewise wants EVERYONE (Yes, the child molester, the drug addict, the atheist, the murderer, etc) to accept forgiveness and be saved. The scripture is clear that God offers this to everyone but as was expressed before in this thread: that is a choice that an individual must make for themselves. The terms of forgiveness are clear. We cannot just do "whatever we want" and expect it. You cannot expect to not pay taxes and have the IRS just ignore it. You cannot expect not to eat and stay alive. I fear that life has become so easy for so long in Western culture that we have forgotten the natural consequences of life. You can't fathom a God who would "send a really nice homosexual to hell who never harmed anyone." God doesn't send us anywhere... we walk there of our own free will. People would have you believe that their free will is more important than anything God has made known? If you are a Christian and have been for 14 years how can you accept that kind of attitude? Life is hard. Life has been hard for humanity since the very first humans decided to follow their own will instead of God's will. If not for our CONSTANT DECISION as generationally impure humans to sin we would be in PARADISE. Technology and distraction have softened us to the point that we cannot even fathom that idea anymore? Accountability is naturally occurring and our actions always bring a consequence.

Is it fair that lions and other predators have the strength and speed to kill herd animals at will? Is it fair that if a baby bird falls from its nest its likely outcome is death? If you obsess about "fair" you are sticking both your feet firmly in the realm of this earth. Logically the only true "fair" outcome in a universe of distinct individuals is equal unfairness.

God is not about being "fair" as that is a human ideal. God is about being righteous which is an ideal that humanity is unable to grasp or achieve on its own. (Regardless of how "nice" we are... or how much we care for one another.)

I am not a perfect Christian. I have constant questions and nagging doubts. I am, however, sure of certain truths. I have seen that in The Word there is wisdom and truth. I cannot fathom that if my sons decide not to follow the way of God that they will regret it for ETERNITY without chance for redemption. But as I know they are individuals and their own salvation is between them and God. I can talk to them, be a good example, and pray daily for their salvation... but in the end I am powerless to effect the outcome. I know it can seem selfish but your responsibility is for your own actions and your own redemption of that is what you choose. You cannot repent or accept spiritual responsibility for anyone but yourself.

Because you love the people you have met who are not walking God's path you have a responsibility to be a good example to them. You should in not ignore them or toss them aside because of their sinful actions but you must guard your own faith against influence. Jesus Christ was tortured and died through his love for us and the promise that his sacrifice could open the door to worldwide salvation. He did not do it in defiance of God but in accordance with His will.

 

[aiki]

Of course it's not okay, and it should be recognized. But it shouldn't be more important than all of the things you have done for others in your life, and all of the time you have spent bettering the world. Does that count for nothing? God is important, but so is helping others and improving His world. Just because you don't do one doesn't mean you don't deserve credit for the other.

As far as God is concerned, why you "bettered the world" is more important than that you did so. If we do good things separate from a motive of pleasing God and showing our love to Him through the good things we do, then those good things are not pleasing to God. Love for God is the purest, highest motive we can have for being righteous; all other motives are corrupt in some measure and thus unacceptable to God as a basis for our good deeds.

Someone has likened the Ten Commandments to a chain. If you break one of the links in that chain, the entire chain is broken. So, even when you obey God's commands in every point but one, the chain of His commands is still broken. For a perfectly holy, righteous God, that single act of disobedience puts an evil stain upon everything else you do. Its like having a jar of jam in which you find a dead fly. The whole jar of jam is tainted by the presence of the dead insect. Or imagine a pure, white canvas upon which someone has placed a single black spot. With the introduction of the black spot on the canvas, one cannot any longer say that the canvas is pure white.

Why does the Word of God have to be superior to everything?

Because it comes forth from that which is superior to all: God. In those matters to which it speaks, the Word of God is the Word of God.

I can't have any thoughts as long as they aren't approved by the Bible?

Sure you can. Those thoughts, though, that are clearly in contradiction to the Bible should not be held in your mind.

I can't be the person I want to be if I'm not approved by God? If you ask me, my faith would really hold me back if this were the case.

If there is one thing the Christian faith does it is hold people back from what they would otherwise do. And good thing, too! The Bible prohibits murder, rape, child abuse, adultery, gossip, hatred, lying, selfishness, etc. And the list goes on. Just in the few things I've listed here, however, I can't see any problem with such prohibitions. The human heart is sin-cursed from birth and tends toward evil naturally. The commands and constraints God puts upon us are intended to keep us from such evil and the terrible consequences that follow.

I may be a Christian, but I am more than that as well. I am a daughter, a student, a sister, etc. And everything I am BUT a Christian, tells me that everyone should be accepted for who they are.

Oh? Should a child molester be accepted for who he is? Should a wife beater be accepted for who he is? How about a lying cheat? Or a slandering gossip? Should they be accepted for who they are?

I have in my mind exactly who the perfect person is, and don't you agree that the perfect person should love you unconditionally, not only if you're straight, and only if you believe in him/her?

God is perfectly holy and as such cannot love "unconditionally." He hates sin absolutely. He will never love sin unconditionally; He cannot.

I've been a Christian for fourteen years. I've never even considered another Religion. I was baptized Christian as a baby, so I do feel that I have the right to look into other religions, wouldn't you say?

Being baptized Christian doesn't make you one. No where in the Bible will you find this taught.

Certainly, you may look into whatever religion you like. It says something about your own view of your infant baptism that you are, however.

There are thousnads of beliefs out there, so how can you honestly say that the Christian faith is the only one who is right? Out of the millions of beliefs?

I think millions of beliefs is a highly exaggerated number.

Yes, after having considered the options and carefully examined the Christian faith I have concluded that it is the only religion that has it all right. It seems to me that you have yet to make this investigation. Unfortunately, your doing so now will be prejudiced by your homosexual interest...

Peace.

 

[PurpleRain]

As far as God is concerned, why you "bettered the world" is more important than that you did so. If we do good things separate from a motive of pleasing God and showing our love to Him through the good things we do, then those good things are not pleasing to God. Love for God is the purest, highest motive we can have for being righteous; all other motives are corrupt in some measure and thus unacceptable to God as a basis for our good deeds.

I don't agree with this at all. If I go around doing things for the common good of others only because I want God to accept me into Heaven, then I'm a no good liar. I would put my heart into helping others, and I would do it for reasons besides making God happy - I would do it to make others happy, and to fill whatever hole that has formed in their lives. It's not all about God. Sure, a huge percentage of it is about God, but helping others benefits more people than myself, and more people than God. If I choose to help other simply to benefit God, I don't feel that I have the right motives what so ever. Because this is one situation where I am meant to have the interests of the person I am helping at heart, not just God's.

Sure you can. Those thoughts, though, that are clearly in contradiction to the Bible should not be held in your mind.

So let me get this straight.. in order to be a Christian, truly, I need to embrace the fact that I am a sinner and ask God to forgive me because of this. I need to accept the fact that God will always be more perfect than I am. But then yet, according to you, I'm supposed to walk around pretending I don't have sinful thoughts, and pretending that I am just as perfect as God is? And that I am not a sinner? Of course I'm not going to stand on a rooftop and scream sinful things, but I do feel that because I am a sinner, I shouldn't be under constant pressure to hide this from others.

If there is one thing the Christian faith does it is hold people back from what they would otherwise do. And good thing, too! The Bible prohibits murder, rape, child abuse, adultery, gossip, hatred, lying, selfishness, etc. And the list goes on. Just in the few things I've listed here, however, I can't see any problem with such prohibitions. The human heart is sin-cursed from birth and tends toward evil naturally. The commands and constraints God puts upon us are intended to keep us from such evil and the terrible consequences that follow.

Have you ever felt the pressure of not being allowed to be yourself? I have. I've been bullied throughout school for no reason whatsoever, I've dealt with severe confidence issues due to depression, and many other things that I will not mention. I've been held back by many things in life, and I have no desire to enter more things into my life that will only hold me back. Of course we do not have the right to murder or rape others, but that's completely beside the point. There is a difference between being a criminal and being yourself. No one is made a criminal. But there are many things that people can be MADE to be, and the bible speaks against a majority of these things.

Let me get one thing clarified;
God absolutely has the right to tell me the kind of person that I should be. He has the right to expect things from me in order to decide whether or not I am truly one of his followers. But other Christians do NOT. That is the one thing that turns me away from my faith so completely. Other Christians who feel they have the right to tell me that I am not a true Christian, and that the sinful acts I commit are sending me to Hell. GOD is the ONLY one who has the right to decide this, and it just sickens me that other Christians feel that they have the right to tell me otherwise. We have the Bible, sure, but we don't know everything. We don't know exactly what God decides when it comes to judgment day, and we don't have the right to pretend that we do. What do Christians think? That telling people that because of the acts they commit they are going to Hell is going to turn them on to the Christian faith? We think that telling them that they must repent from their sins or they are going to burn in Hell is going to turn them to the Christian faith for the right reasons? We have 0 right to tell people whether or not they are Christians, and whether or not they are going to receive eternal life. We have no right to tell each other whether or not we will be accepted into God's Kingdom.

God is perfectly holy and as such cannot love "unconditionally." He hates sin absolutely. He will never love sin unconditionally; He cannot.

He might hate sins, but he's perfect capable of loving sinners. Otherwise, according to you, he would not love me, and he would not love you. God still loves murderers, rapists, molesters, etc. And I simply cannot comprehend why God would deny someone he loved a place in Heaven.

Being baptized Christian doesn't make you one. No where in the Bible will you find this taught.

Certainly, you may look into whatever religion you like. It says something about your own view of your infant baptism that you are, however.

I did not make the decision to be baptized. I didn't tell my parents at 6 months old "Please Baptize me." I didn't tell the minister baptizing me that I wanted to be baptized. I have never been confirmed, and I have never truly made my own decision to be Christian. Before I do this, I feel that it is important to know that I am in the right religion. Choosing a religion is a life long commitment, and I am not going to get myself in a commitment only to wish I hadn't in a few years to come. You can have any opinion you want on this matter, but personally, I don't care what it is.

Yes, after having considered the options and carefully examined the Christian faith I have concluded that it is the only religion that has it all right. It seems to me that you have yet to make this investigation. Unfortunately, your doing so now will be prejudiced by your homosexual interest...

Good for you, I am glad you have found a religion you are completely committed too. But please do not pretend that it did not take you a persistent and dedicated search to find it. I bet you explored other religions, or at least were curious about them.

And wait a minute.... first you tell me that I am not a true Christian for investigating other faiths, and then you tell me that "I have yet to make this investigation" implying that I already should have / should be?

Also, I am not homosexual. Do I believe that homosexuals deserve equal rights as well as acceptance by God and by Christians? Yes. But I deserve that EVERYONE deserves acceptance. Yes, I believe that even murderers and other wrongdoers deserve forgiveness and acceptance. We are all good people somewhere inside, and I refuse to believe that God does not see this.

I may be wrong about what I believe about God, but the important thing is that I believe in him. I might not believe that homosexuals should be punished, nor should anyone else, but I believe in God, as I have said. I might not believe all that the Christians do, but I don't need a title for my faith. I believe, and I know that this is enough for God.

 

[aiki]

I don't agree with this at all. If I go around doing things for the common good of others only because I want God to accept me into Heaven, then I'm a no good liar.

Hmmm...Well, I didn't actually say that one should do things just so that one can get into Heaven. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but the Bible teaches that love for God, not Heaven, is the sole motive for good deeds that He will accept.

I would put my heart into helping others, and I would do it for reasons besides making God happy - I would do it to make others happy, and to fill whatever hole that has formed in their lives. It's not all about God.

You know, it is just like God that He has ordained things such that in order to show our love for Him we must help and love others. The two things - loving God and loving other people - are not separate things in God's eyes. If we truly love God, we will inevitably be helping others in demonstration of that love.

I'm afraid it is all about God. No, I take that back; I'm not afraid. God is at the center of everything. He makes it all happen, whether we can see it or not, whether we are willing to acknowledge it or not. You would not exist, and thus be able to deny God His central role in the universe, were it not for Him.

Sure, a huge percentage of it is about God, but helping others benefits more people than myself, and more people than God.

Okay.

If I choose to help other simply to benefit God, I don't feel that I have the right motives what so ever. Because this is one situation where I am meant to have the interests of the person I am helping at heart, not just God's.

I think you are creating something called a false dichotomy here. You are offering up only two apparently mutually exclusive options - benefiting God or benefiting the person - when there are more options available. For instance, why can't you both serve God and the person?

So let me get this straight.. in order to be a Christian, truly, I need to embrace the fact that I am a sinner and ask God to forgive me because of this. I need to accept the fact that God will always be more perfect than I am. But then yet, according to you, I'm supposed to walk around pretending I don't have sinful thoughts, and pretending that I am just as perfect as God is? And that I am not a sinner?

Uh, well, I don't recall telling you to pretend not to have sinful thoughts...Can you show me where I wrote that?

Of course I'm not going to stand on a rooftop and scream sinful things, but I do feel that because I am a sinner, I shouldn't be under constant pressure to hide this from others.

The Bible agrees with you (and so, of course, do I):

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

James 5:16
16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Have you ever felt the pressure of not being allowed to be yourself? I have.

Sure. I think everyone at some point(s) has felt this pressure.

I've been bullied throughout school for no reason whatsoever, I've dealt with severe confidence issues due to depression, and many other things that I will not mention. I've been held back by many things in life, and I have no desire to enter more things into my life that will only hold me back. Of course we do not have the right to murder or rape others, but that's completely beside the point. There is a difference between being a criminal and being yourself.

I agree with this - for the most part. I would add one caveat, however: What we call criminal and what God calls criminal are not necessarily the same thing. Consider the following list:

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Most people I know wouldn't say that a "proud look" is criminal, but God hates it! In this list lying and causing dissension among people is on par with murder. God hates them all!

So, I would be very careful about what I would call "merely being myself" and what I would call criminal.

No one is made a criminal. But there are many things that people can be MADE to be, and the bible speaks against a majority of these things.

Yes and no. Certainly there are influences that act upon us and induce us to behaviours that are bad. Rarely, though, do these influences force us to do bad things. In some measure, we typically choose to do evil. I heard a story about two men who grew up under the parenting of an alcoholic father. One son went on to be just like his Dad - a lazy, irresponsible drunk. The other, went on to be nothing like his Dad. He was a responsible, sober, happily married man. When asked why they had each become the men that they were, they both gave the same answer: "With a father like mine, what did you expect?"

Let me get one thing clarified;
God absolutely has the right to tell me the kind of person that I should be. He has the right to expect things from me in order to decide whether or not I am truly one of his followers. But other Christians do NOT. That is the one thing that turns me away from my faith so completely. Other Christians who feel they have the right to tell me that I am not a true Christian, and that the sinful acts I commit are sending me to Hell. GOD is the ONLY one who has the right to decide this, and it just sickens me that other Christians feel that they have the right to tell me otherwise. We have the Bible, sure, but we don't know everything. We don't know exactly what God decides when it comes to judgment day, and we don't have the right to pretend that we do.

I understand your resentment at someone's suggestion that your life may not be pleasing to God. I've felt the same resentment. It may surprise you, then, to know that the Bible requires us to be discerning about right and wrong, about who is and isn't truly saved, and to "reprove, rebuke, and exhort" one another. Here are some verses which support what I'm saying:

1 Corinthians 5:1-6
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Pretty serious stuff. The apostle Paul goes on to say:

1 Corinthians 5:11-13
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." (underlined portions are mine)

Clearly, then, there is a biblical basis for judging the conduct of other Christians. Of course, a Christian who is struggling with sin is to be treated differently than one who has entered wholesale into immorality. Even Paul himself struggled with sin. (Ro. 7:15 -21) As a result, we support those who are wrestling to overcome sin in their lives with prayer and spiritual encouragement. Those, however, who have ceased to "strive against sin" are to be challenged directly.

Ephesians 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

2 Timothy 4:2
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

How many times did Paul write "Such-and-such is wrong. Don't do it"? Every one of his letters has such commands. And these commands were given in part because Paul judged that the Christians to whom he was writing were guilty of doing sinful things. If Paul was careful to judge as sinful the conduct of fellow Christians and reprove them, so also ought we.

Is there a place even for challenging a person's salvation? Yes, I think so. The New Testament is filled with the criteria by which one may know that one is saved. It is a simple thing to assess according to this criteria whether or not I am saved and whether or not another is saved. The apostle Peter, Paul and Christ himself told us to beware of those who would come "in sheep's clothing," the false teachers, who would lead Christians astray. These are people who will appear to be Christian, but who actually aren't. Christians will have to judge the truth of the claim of spiritual birth of these pretenders as well as the things they teach in order to declare them "wolves among the sheep."

What do Christians think? That telling people that because of the acts they commit they are going to Hell is going to turn them on to the Christian faith? We think that telling them that they must repent from their sins or they are going to burn in Hell is going to turn them to the Christian faith for the right reasons? We have 0 right to tell people whether or not they are Christians, and whether or not they are going to receive eternal life. We have no right to tell each other whether or not we will be accepted into God's Kingdom.

As I've shown from Scripture, you're not biblical in your thinking here.

I would agree with you that simply threatening people with Hell is not the way to encourage them toward God. The gospel is far more than the threat of Hell. Along with the jeopardy of Hell, we must share with people God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and love expressed to us in the sacrifice of His Son on the cross for our sins.

He might hate sins, but he's perfect capable of loving sinners. Otherwise, according to you, he would not love me, and he would not love you. God still loves murderers, rapists, molesters, etc. And I simply cannot comprehend why God would deny someone he loved a place in Heaven.

You're probably not gonna' like this answer, but...

How do you balance the idea that God loves the sin, but hates the sinner with the fact that unrepentant sinners stand under the wrathful judgment of God? Yes, I believe God "loved the world" but those who live in willful rebellion to Him will spend an eternity in Hell. It is the sinner who sins. It seems artificial and not entirely biblical to assert that somehow God separates our sin out from us. God wouldn't send my sin to Hell if I died without a saving faith in Christ as my Lord and Savior, He'd send me there!

God accepts me only because of my faith in His Son Jesus as my Saviour, which clothes me in Christ's righteousness. Thats it. There is nothing in me for God to love. If He has any love for me, it is because it His nature to love, not because I am lovely. But that loving nature is constrained by His holiness. Where my conduct offends God's holiness, His love cannot transcend or over-ride that holiness to embrace me and my sin. If the sacrifice for my sins is not received by me by faith in Christ, I stand, not under the shower of God's all-loving attention, but under his holy wrath! This is what the Bible teaches.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (Underline mine.)

I did not make the decision to be baptized. I didn't tell my parents at 6 months old "Please Baptize me." I didn't tell the minister baptizing me that I wanted to be baptized. I have never been confirmed, and I have never truly made my own decision to be Christian. Before I do this, I feel that it is important to know that I am in the right religion.

Amen to that!

Peace.

 

[aiki]

I had to split up my post into two. I was too long-winded. Imagine that?!

Choosing a religion is a life long commitment, and I am not going to get myself in a commitment only to wish I hadn't in a few years to come. You can have any opinion you want on this matter, but personally, I don't care what it is.

Thank you. You're very kind.

Good for you, I am glad you have found a religion you are completely committed too. But please do not pretend that it did not take you a persistent and dedicated search to find it. I bet you explored other religions, or at least were curious about them.

Uh...Did I give you the impression that I hadn't taken pains to study what I believe? Hmmm... This is what I wrote:

Yes, after having considered the options and carefully examined the Christian faith I have concluded that it is the only religion that has it all right.

And wait a minute.... first you tell me that I am not a true Christian for investigating other faiths, and then you tell me that "I have yet to make this investigation" implying that I already should have / should be?

Okaayyy...Really, I don't know quite what to say, here...I certainly didn't intend to say that you weren't a Christian for investigating other faiths. My point was rather different. I was trying to warn you of the danger of taking a pick-and-choose approach to religious belief. THis was in response to your comments about looking into Mormonism and finding something you liked in it.

Also, I am not homosexual.

Ah. I have the wrong end of the stick it seems. Sorry about that.

Do I believe that homosexuals deserve equal rights as well as acceptance by God and by Christians? Yes. But I deserve that EVERYONE deserves acceptance. Yes, I believe that even murderers and other wrongdoers deserve forgiveness and acceptance. We are all good people somewhere inside, and I refuse to believe that God does not see this.

I agree that homosexuals are deserving of the same rights as everyone else enjoys. THey are human beings, too. I don't think their sexual proclivities should be grounds for special rights and protection, however.

As far as the idea that we are all "good somewhere inside" is concerned, I know that the Bible doesn't agree. In fact, it states completely the opposite, which is why we need saving.

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

I may be wrong about what I believe about God, but the important thing is that I believe in him. I might not believe that homosexuals should be punished, nor should anyone else, but I believe in God, as I have said. I might not believe all that the Christians do, but I don't need a title for my faith. I believe, and I know that this is enough for God.

How do you know this? On what do you base your certainty?

Peace.

 

[98cwitr]

I've been struggling a lot for awhile now, with a few things that I won't mention, and it's caused a lot of trouble in my faith. Through my struggles I've come to know a lot of new people, a lot of people who I've met both in 'real life' and online......etc etc etc

there's not one mention of Jesus in your entire post...your focus as a Christian must be on Christ.

 

[JasperJackson]

PurpleRain,

I just want to say I can relate to what you're going through. I've had similar thoughts. I just want to encourage you to keep reading your Bible. Just get to know God better. Let him speak to you.

And always happy to PM.

JJ

 

[childofGod31]

I've been struggling a lot for awhile now, with a few things that I won't mention, and it's caused a lot of trouble in my faith. Through my struggles I've come to know a lot of new people, a lot of people who I've met both in 'real life' and online. A lot of these people are people who would not be.. accepted, we'll say.. among the majority of Christians. But still, they are the nicest people you could ever imagine meeting. They are supportive, helpful, and generally just great people.

But many of them don't believe in God, and many of them have participated in things, and call themselves things, that are frowned upon in the bible. But I just can't agree with the fact that people this nice, this helpful and supportive, this good of friends, could be sent to Hell.

I just think that there HAS to be more too it than Heaven, Hell, and maybe even purgatory. God can't expect all of us to be believers, but simply because we might deny him shouldn't mean we should be deemed as sinners.

So then I start thinking that maybe the Christians have got it wrong. Maybe there really is no Hell. Yesterday I started looking at Mormon beliefs, and I like their idea of Heaven; the believers and the good people go to the ultimate level of Heaven, and the good people still get to go to Heaven, but they are sent to a lower less admirable level of Heaven.

It just makes so much more sense to me. There are so many Christian beliefs I don't agree with, but I want desperately to be a Christian. I've always been a Christian, I have to be a Christian.. right?

Because I've grown up believing that it's the only way to be saved. But if I hold on to a religion that I don't 100% agree with yet tell people that I do, does that make me a sinner?

I believe in the Christian God. I try my best to be a good person. But is that really enough to make me a Christian?

I wish I could be confident in my faith, but it just seems like such a battle, and right now it's going downhill.

God is truly wonderful and loving. But most people don't know that. He is truly amazing and wise and it's a great joy and honor to know Him. But most people don't know Him. They made up stuff about Him based on their own understanding and lots of it is wrong.

To be a Christian is a wonderful thing. But not the kind of Christian that most Christians are today. To be a Christian is to have a beautiful, loving, fulfilling relationship with your Father who is in heaven. It's such a joy to be a Christian.

But false teachings took all the joy out of being a Christian.

I wrote here the difference between Christian religion and Christian faith.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7448799-4/#post54360803

Don't get sucked into the religion: it has no life in it, it's bondage, it's useless as far as finding God and it's hard to live.
Faith on the other hand is a wonderful experience of getting to know your Father.

You are HIS child. It's your destiny to be in Heaven (if you have a desire for God). So embrace your destiny, find out who you are: HIS DAUGHTER! His favorite one! (In God's world, each one is favorite. It's a beauty of his existence)

He loves you more than you can imagine. Maybe you posting here was HIs way of reaching out to you. He adores you deeply. He loves you the way you are (sins and all). He is there to help you with your sins (it's not a problem for Him). All He wants is to have a relationship with you. He is really really wonderful and He makes me feel like I am the most cherished person on the whole planet. And I AM in His eyes. And YOU ARE too.

God was watching over you ever since you were born. You were always His. But there comes a time when you discover that you are His, and that time is called: becoming a Christian. And He hopes that at some point you will come close to Him and give Him your love, your time, yourself. And He will give you His love, His time and Himself.

He told me that there is no eternal hell (it's a false doctrine). And I've prayed for Him to help me to find support of this in the Bible since I knew it would be hard for people to just take my word for it. And so here is what I wrote about this:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7437431/

I wrote here how God created us for a loving relationship with Himself. That's all. No millions of doctrines, no rules. Just a relationship.

Bible 101 • View topic - Do you REALLY know what God is love means?

But remember: only by your own experience can you KNOW God. So don't settle for other's people's words for it. Get to know Him youself. The only way to get to know any person is by having a relationship with them. If you find out about the other person from other people, it's moke like "gossip" than getting to know another person. So it works the same with God. Each of our experiences with God will be different based on our personalities. I am really into "love". So to me God is all about Love. Somebody else is really into excitement of adventure in nature's settings. So for that person God will seem as though He is everywhere in nature and He is into this kind of excitement.
So your experience might be different from mine if your personality is different from mine. So get to know Him yourself.