Am I Nuts?

[Peter]

I started to post this else where, but then thought better of it. Would you all look at this and see if there's any validity to my thinking (I am on medication) or am I just nuts?


It struck me years ago, while still Protestant, how the selling of indulgances looked an awful lot like the concept of "getting saved."

Here's what I mean:

The selling of indulgances, who's priamary role was to make money, allowed the buyer of the said indulgance to sin at will ,as it were. The humerous story goes that a thief bought an indulgance for future sins and then robbed the priest who sold it to him.

The idea of "getting saved" almost has the same flavor. Now I know not all Protestants believe like this, but many do. If you say a prayer, with sincerity of course, Jesus enters your life and you are good for eternity. You have "gotten saved." Now you are good to go. You have your ticket for the glory train.

What bothers me about this is that when you say your prayer with sincerity, God is now OBLIGATED to save you. You are no longer reliant on His grace. Like the priest in the story, there's nothing God can do to you if you turn away because you "got saved" and He has to save you.

Doesn't this nullify the Grace of God?

I know we as Orthodox hold a far different view of salvation. But I've got a ton of Protestant friends and salvation is a topic that comes up when we talk.

Thank you.

Peace.

Peter

 

[Philip]

What you describe is called antinominism (sp?).

Most Protestants who use the phrase "get saved" are Calvinist. They try to escape the dilemma you have pointed out by saying that people who willfully sin after "being saved" had not actually "been saved". It seems that the only way to know if you have truly "been saved" is to be able to see the future.

 

[Reader Nilus]

It seems like a quite proper view of what Baptists feel and hold. They sort of hedge when it comes to the Sermon on the Mount, and that those who are on the Narrow Way are doing the will of the Father, and not just saying it, like the Parable of the Two Sons; Matthew 21:28-32.
Jeff the Finn

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Don't Catholics believe that indulgences cannot determine whether you go to heaven or hell, but only reduce the time spend in purgatory? Don't they believe that they only remit the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven in the confessional and for venial sins, rather than being for the forgiveness of mortal sins? If I'm correct about that, then your example of someone buying an indulgence then robbing the priest wouldn't apply since they wouldn't help with an unconfessed mortal sin. Or has the Catholic teaching on indulgences changed and did it at one time teach that?

Philip, Evangelicals use the prase "get saved" too.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Good points Peter. I never thought of it that way.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Don't Catholics believe that indulgences cannot determine whether you go to heaven or hell, but only reduce the time spend in purgatory? Don't they believe that they only remit the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven in the confessional and for venial sins, rather than being for the forgiveness of mortal sins? If I'm correct about that, then your example of someone buying an indulgence then robbing the priest wouldn't apply since they wouldn't help with an unconfessed mortal sin. Or has the Catholic teaching on indulgences changed and did it at one time teach that?

Philip, Evangelicals use the prase "get saved" too.

You are correct. It is for time off in purgatory, not salvation.

 

[Maximus]

I had a friend whose sister was at one time a very active and committed Baptist who later turned away from Christianity altogether. When approached by Evangelicals who were attempting to witness to her, this young woman would ask them, "Do you believe in 'Once-Saved-Always-Saved'?" They would invariably answer, "Yes, we do," to which she would reply, "Well, leave me alone then and go save someone else."

 

[nyj]

The selling of indulgances, who's priamary role was to make money, allowed the buyer of the said indulgance to sin at will ,as it were.

This is a lie.

 

[Godzman]

I was learning in class about the mystical union theology of the orthodax, even as a protestant I think I agree with this, could anybody explain this better.

 

[Reader Nilus]

I was learning in class about the mystical union theology of the orthodax, even as a protestant I think I agree with this, could anybody explain this better.

Theosis is a good introduction, but if you want some real meaty works, any by Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos would be good and by far the best introduction is The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky. The Biblical text is 2 Peter 1:4; so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature. The whole of life as a Christian is to put on Christ and as St Seraphim of Sorov said was to aquire the Holy Spirit.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Peter]

To clarify:

WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS
An indulgence is the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment due, in God's justice, to sin that has been forgiven, which remission is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys, through the application of the superabundant merits of Christ and of the saints, and for some just and reasonable motive.

However, the rest of the question stands. Doesn't "getting saved" negate the grace of God?

Peace.

Peter

P.S. Am I wrong on the other part of indulgences too. Were they not sold?

 

[nyj]

P.S. Am I wrong on the other part of indulgences too. Were they not sold?

They were sold, but that has always been considered an abuse, and a condemnation of such was re-issued at the Council of Trent during the Counter-Reformation. Also, that is not what you said... you said it's primary role was to raise money and that simply has never been true. It's primary role is to remit the temporal punishment of sin. In other words, it is purely pastoral in nature, not a financial tool of the Church.