am I Getting decent information

[Danfrey]

Did the East continue to hold to a view of non-resistance as Jesus, The Apostles, and The Early Fathers taught?

I was under the assumption that they had the same issues as the West when it came to Church/State entanglement.

If I misrepresented Chrysostom, I apologize. There are too many that disagree with me to misquote the ones who do

 

[Danfrey]

First, let me say that I appreciate your approach to this discussion. It has been respectful and uplifting. I will end on a final note because I believe there is a fundamental belief here that will interfere with us discussing this issue on common ground. I am of the belief that the scriptures were complete with the Apostles. The closer to the Apostles you get the purer the faith. (excluding obvious herecies)

Danfrey,
At the time of the earlier quotes no Christian, to my knowledge held the power of a Magistrate and then, just as now, the Christian as an individual and a member of Christ Church, has no authority to the sword.

I believe there was no desire of the Christians to be part of the Government. I am not sure how you feel about Tertullian, but he has much to say about a Christian as magistrate. Also, there is a work by Hippolytus (Apostolic Tradition dated about 200) that addresses this issue.

 

[Philip]

Did the East continue to hold to a view of non-resistance as Jesus, The Apostles, and The Early Fathers taught?

In general, yes. Certainly, there were some who advocated resistence, especially when the Muslims arrived. Some theologians allowed for Christians to serve in the military if it was required by the state. Others opposed it. However, the idea of a 'Just War' never developed.

It should also be noted that the Orthodox did not participate in the Crusades. (Some Orthodox individuals did, but that was not the position of the Church.) In fact, we ended up the primary victims of the Fourth.

I was under the assumption that they had the same issues as the West when it came to Church/State entanglement.

I suppose it depends on the perspective. In Byzantium, the opinion tended to be to cooperate with the state as best possible, but theology was defended. It was not uncommon for the Bishop of Constantinople to be exiled by the Emperor, Chrysostom being a prime example.

I'm not as sure about Russia.

I think the real problem in the West did not arrise from the Church working with the state, but from the Church surplanting the state. When the Western Roman Empire crumbled, the pope stepped in to take secular power as well.

If I misrepresented Chrysostom, I apologize. There are too many that disagree with me to misquote the ones who do

An honest mistake. The sentence by itself is questionable.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Danfrey,

Thanks again for your comments.

As I mentioned before, I have been reading in the fathers and I don’t think the were all pacifists as you think they were. I think the few items below (I think) bear that out.


A good case can be made for Tertullian being a pacifist, but Tertullian (though brilliant in many ways, also had issues and is strange on a number of things). Still, you will notice below, even in his polemic against Roman military service, he admits that there were Christians serving in the Roman Army under Emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180 AD) .

Masters, be gentle towards your servants, as holy Job has taught you; for there is one nature, and one family of mankind. For “in Christ there is neither bond nor free.” Let governors be obedient to Caesar; soldiers to those that command them; deacons to the presbyters, as to high-priests; the presbyters, and deacons, and the rest of the clergy, together with all the people, and the soldiers, and the governors, and Caesar [himself], to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as Christ to the Father. (St. Ignatius to the Philippians, chapter 4 [longer version])

Further, in respect to forbearance. “If thy brother,” it is said, “sin against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. If he sin against thee seven times in a day, and turn to thee the seventh time, and say, I repent, forgive him.” Also to the soldiers, by John, He commands, “to be content with their wages only;” and to the publicans, “to exact no more than is appointed.” To the judges He says, “Thou shalt not show partiality in judgment. For gifts blind the eyes of those who see, and corrupt just words. Rescue the wronged.” (Clement of Alexandria: PAEDAGOGUS; book 3 ch. 12)

Marcus Aurelius also, in his expedition to Germany, by the prayers his Christian soldiers offered to God, got rain in that well-known thirst. When, indeed, have not droughts been put away by our kneelings and our fastings? (Tertullian Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol III; pg 196)

I have enjoyed this discussion, and hope we can converse on other topics in the future.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Danfrey]

Marcus Aurelius also, in his expedition to Germany, by the prayers his Christian soldiers offered to God, got rain in that well-known thirst. When, indeed, have not droughts been put away by our kneelings and our fastings? (Tertullian Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol III; pg 196)

Maybe not my last note. The quote you have given was also mentioned in Justin Martyrs first Apology. There is a letter attached to the Apology that I believe Tertullian is referring to.

Here is a quote...

Wherefore they began the battle, not by preparing weapons, nor arms, nor
bugles; for such preparation is hateful to them, on account of the God they bear about in their
conscience. Therefore it is probable that those whom we suppose to be atheists, have God as their
ruling power entrenched in their conscience. For having cast themselves on the ground, they prayed
not only for me, but also for the whole army as it stood, that they might be delivered from the
present thirst and famine.

I would love to use this quote to defend my position, but the letter listed in the Ante-Nicene Fathers as being spurious. As far as the others, I appreciate the input and will read them further.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Just checking in...

I'll need to read through all the posts...

To the O.P.

Almost everything you have been taught, from what I can tell, is unfortunatly, grossly distorted...

Constantine did "close" many of the Pagan temples.... but no pressure to convert to Christianity...

I'll be back later.... after I read more posts.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Gosh Danfrey,

You are confusing the Orthodox Church for the Catholic Church and your bashing them pretty hard together....

Forgive me...