Am I Born Again?

[Wordkeeper]

I see, so to receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples received at Pentecost does not bring us to see the way. It is a sideshow as it were to the main event. Very interesting.
I know you believe you are revealing to the rest of us a very puzzling mystery of God. Many believe they do, on the internet. But my advice would be, to get back to basics. If you build on the wrong foundation, the house will not survive, you just go off at tangents from the true way.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Even Judas and Simon Magus were baptised. What happened was that they were exposed to the Way, just like Israel in the wilderness. The water shortage and then God giving water was God telling Israel that in the future, she had to face danger and then be saved. In this way, the other nations would say, "See, Israel takes on danger and God still saves her!" Then they would also leave the safety of serving mammon and begin to serve God, just like Israel left the safety of serving Egypt and followed God. Even obeying the law was risky. If you read the Torah, Jews had to be very charitable, and yet would not suffer in life!

Israel saw the Way and was scared. She saw the dangers, but forgot the rescues. They wanted to return to Egypt, but baptism closed the sea behind her. Her contract which was activated by baptism would not allow cancellation. God told Israel she would never be able to return to Egypt ever again:

Deuteronomy 17:10"Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, 'You shall never again return that way.'

But Caleb remembered the rescues God carried out, just like Abraham remembered God rescuing him when the kings tied to steal his wife from him, so when God commanded they do another dangerous act, Caleb went out against the Amalekites, and Abraham took his son to be sacrificed. It was these acts which showed they had a change of mind, meta noia, repentance, were born again and that was what allowed them to enter Rest:

Numbers 14:24"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

Isn't it wonderful that the Bible repeats a message so we can understand the mysteries that thousands of years, far distance and strange cultures hide, because we are not there?

 

[Karola]

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Even Judas and Simon Magus were baptised. What happened was was they were exposed to the Way, just like Israel in the wilderness. The water shortage and then God giving water was God telling Israel that in the future, she had to face danger and then be saved. In this way, the other nations would say, "See, Israel takes on danger and God still saves her!" Then they would also leave the safety of serving mammon and begin to serve God, just like Israel left the safety of serving Egypt and followed God. Even obeying the law was risky. If you read the Torah, Jews had to be very charitable, and yet would not suffer in life!

Israel saw the Way and was scared. She saw the dangers, but forgot the rescues. They wanted to return to Egypt, but baptism closed the sea behind her. Her contract which was activated by baptism would not allow cancellation. God told Israel she would never be able to return to Egypt ever again:

Deuteronomy 17:10"Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, 'You shall never again return that way.'

But Caleb remembered the rescues God carried out, just like Abraham remembered God rescuing him when the kings tied to steal his wife from him, so when God commanded they do another dangerous act, Caleb went out against the Amalekites, and Abraham took his son to be sacrificed. It was these acts which showed they had a change of mind, meta noia, repentance, were born again and that was what allowed them to enter Rest:

Numbers 14:24"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

Isn't it wonderful that the Bible repeats a message so we can understand the mysteries that thousands of years, far distance and strange cultures hide, because we are not there?

If you cannot give an answer to a very simple question concerning the basics of the Christian faith, I think that says much about the mysteries you believe you have been given insight into:

In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?
Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Please address the point in posts if you are going to respond to them
In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?
Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

I just showed you how a wicked person like King Saul could receive the Holy Spirit, proving you wrong.

 

[Karola]

I just showed you how a wicked person like King Saul could receive the Holy Spirit, proving you wrong.

Answer the question please, then I will address your point. Or maybe you do not know the answer:
In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?
Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Answer the question please, then I will address your point. Or maybe you do not know the answer:
In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?
Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?

No.

Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

Yes.

Now tell me what is wrong with post #441?

 

[Karola]

In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?

No.

Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

Yes.

Scripture disagrees with you, very clearly

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom8:9



When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of his glory. Eph1:13



And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph4:30

 

[Karola]

I just showed you how a wicked person like King Saul could receive the Holy Spirit, proving you wrong.

In response to the above, as promised:

‘Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.’c]'>[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John7:37-39

All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John14:25&26

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John16:7

 

[Wordkeeper]

Scripture disagrees with you, very clearly

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom8:9

The spirit of Christ is the spirit of Caleb and the spirit of Abraham , to be unafraid and be fiercely faithful to God, obeying whatever He commands, so that when they are rescued, other nations would follow God.

When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession

– to the praise of his glory. Eph1:13

That promise is for those who are God's possessions, having the spirit of Caleb, Abraham and Christ.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption Eph4:30

Proving it is possible to grieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wordkeeper]

In response to the above, as promised:

‘Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.’c]'>[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John7:37-39

All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John14:25&26

How did King Saul receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Karola]

The spirit of Christ is the spirit of Caleb and the spirit of Abraham , to be unafraid and be fiercely faithful to God, obeying whatever He commands, so that when they are rescued, other nations would follow God.



That promise is for those who are God's possessions, having the spirit of Caleb, Abraham and Christ.



Proving it is possible to grieve the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit had not yet been sent when Christ walked this earth, as those who would believe in him were later to receive, so quoting saul from the OT is pointless.
You are way off in understanding. Anyone can quote something from the bible and build an errant doctrine on it. The unsaved are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, it is preposterous to believe such a thing

Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.’c]'>[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John7:37-39

All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John14:25&26

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John16:7

 

[Wordkeeper]

The Spirit had not yet been sent when Christ walked this earth, as those who would believe in him were later to receive, so quoting saul from the OT is pointless.
You are way off in understanding. Anyone can quote something from the bible and build an errant doctrine on it. The unsaved are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, it is preposterous to believe such a thing

Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.’c]'>[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. John7:37-39

All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you John14:25&26

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John16:7

So what did King Saul receive?

 

[Karola]

How did King Saul receive the Holy Spirit?

As quoted already. Jesus said unless he went away the Spirit would not be sent. So if he was already there, as the disciples would receive Him at Pentecost, the whole thing collapses(obviously)


The Spirit came upon many in OT times and they prophesied as a result. But that is not, not the Pentecost experience!! So to claim Caleb, or Saul had the Spirit as was given at Pentecost, is I am afraid, not to understand the rudiments of the new covenant.

When the disciples received the Spirit at Pentecost, it was something new, the people thought they might be drunk. It was not a continuation of what had previously been



Read the following carefully:



And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you for ever – 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with(with) you and will be in(in) you John14:16&17

 

[Wordkeeper]

As quoted already. Jesus said unless he went away the Spirit would not be sent. So if he was already there, as the disciples would receive Him at Pentecost, the whole thing collapses(obviously)


The Spirit came upon many in OT times and they prophesied as a result. But that is not, not the Pentecost experience!! So to claim Caleb, or Saul had the Spirit as was given at Pentecost, is I am afraid, not to understand the rudiments of the new covenant.

When the disciples received the Spirit at Pentecost, it was something new, the people thought they might be drunk. It was not a continuation of what had previously been



Read the following carefully:



And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you for ever – 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with(with) you and will be in(in) you John14:16&17

You claimed the Holy Spirit cannot come upon wicked people. I proved you wrong. I rest my case.

 

[Aldebaran]

I do have a job. I have prayed to be separated from all worldly wealth.

James 1:9Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower.11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

Brrrr!

Don't you think a person can have any worldly possessions at all without being considered "rich"? Do you think God expects you to be without a home, a means of transportation, clothing, food, devices to communicate with other people, etc.?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Don't you think a person can have any worldly possessions at all without being considered "rich"? Do you think God expects you to be without a home, a means of transportation, clothing, food, devices to communicate with other people, etc.?

God's expectation is that you you change our mind that the only way to live is by serving interests of the self (which is not living because at the end, nothing remains) and believe that He has made available another Way, of really living, by serving His interests, resulting in gains that last. Agreeing is the first step, and poor people are the recipients of the honour of being able of acting out that belief. Rich people can agree and ask God to help in separating them from unrighteous mammon.

James 1:9Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower.11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

 

[Aldebaran]

God's expectation is that you you change our mind that the only way to live is by serving interests of the self (which is not living because at the end, nothing remains) and believe that He has made available another Way, of really living, by serving His interests, resulting in gains that last. Agreeing is the first step, and poor people are the recipients of the honour of being able of acting out that belief. Rich people can agree and ask God to help in separating them from unrighteous mammon.

If that's the case, then why have you only prayed that God separates you from your job? Why don't you simply quit, and then give away everything you own, including the place where you live, your means of transportation, and your clothing?

 

[Emli]

If that's the case, then why have you only prayed that God separates you from your job? Why don't you simply quit, and then give away everything you own, including the place where you live, your means of transportation, and your clothing?

I agree.
What God calls us to do, we are always able to do in Him, because He gives us the grace, strength and power to do so. We are in Him after we are born-again by His Spirit when we believe in our heart confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If we can't do something, it is either because we don't have His Spirit or because it is not His will. Not once have I had to ask God to remove something from my life so I could achieve something. He has asked me to let go of something and then enabled me to let go, by His Spirit, because of what Jesus achieved for me.

We don't come to God begging for help when we fail on our own trying to follow Him on our own. We trust in Him always by faith and do what He leads us to do in Him. But that is impossible if we aren't already in Him because we haven't yet been grafted in by faith through grace. That is done by the will of God, not the will of man.

 

[Karola]

You claimed the Holy Spirit cannot come upon wicked people. I proved you wrong. I rest my case.

Quote where I stated that under the old covenant Saul, who was wicked could not prophesy through the Spirit of God? You cannot for I never stated that, as you know. I guess it is easier for some to lie than admit to error. This is what I asked you:
In your view, if anyone has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues, does this prove they are in a saved state?
Or, can the unsaved receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?
I showed you, the way the Spirit indwelt believers at Pentecost, was something that had not previously happened. That is true according to Jesus and John's words. So your contention is with them, not me.
But thank you for making your views clear. People under the new covenant can receive the Holy Spirit as they did at Pentecost and speak in tongues whilst in an unsaved state.
Good luck with that, I doubt you will get anyone on this website agreeing with you(hopefully not anyway)

 

[johnnywong]

I think we're spiritually dead from the beginning

Yes ,we are spiritually dead but soul (old me ) very alive and always want to keep spirit in dead position.

You have to be passively active to keep 'old soul' dead (God let you have free-will to choose ),Holy spirit actively passive to supernaturally help your spirit alive

 

[St. Helens]

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Thread locked due to Flaming and off topic posts.
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