Allah

[Nadiine]

And the different sects that would call
themselves Christians but don't have
the true God, still believe in their
hearts they're following our God.
Without Christ, how can they be?
He's the only way, He said...

sunlover

Well said!

 

[Sojourner<><]

And the different sects that would call
themselves Christians but don't have
the true God, still believe in their
hearts they're following our God.
Without Christ, how can they be?
He's the only way, He said...

sunlover

Ok wait... they believe in Christ and call themselves Christians but they aren't? I would think it's the ones who call themselves Christians but don't believe that are false professors.

 

[Nadiine]

Ok wait... they believe in Christ and call themselves Christians but they aren't? I would think it's the ones who call themselves Christians but don't believe that are false professors.

Mt. 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ​

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' ​

 

[Polycarp1]

Ok wait... they believe in Christ and call themselves Christians but they aren't? I would think it's the ones who call themselves Christians but don't believe that are false professors.

The problem here is defining who "they" are.

Are they people who claim that Christ came to save only the elect? Or all mankind? (Both can be defended from Scripture.)

Are they the ones who preach that Christ is of the same nature as the Father, or of like nature with the Father? (There's an iota of difference in those two concepts! )

Are they the ones who believe that baptism and communion are God working through his clergy to grant grace through physical elements of His Creation? Or the ones who believe that His grace is exclusively spiritual, and that baptism and communion are only things which we do because He ordained that they be done?

Are they the ones to draw lines to shut others out? Or the ones to draw lines to bring others in?

Does God hear the prayers of unbelievers? How about those who believe, but don't believe quite the right things?

Is His ability to save greater or less than the lines we draw?

 

[Sojourner<><]

Mt. 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. ​

22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' ​

"So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:31

"...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. " Rom 10:9

""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mar 1:15

""Do not be afraid; only believe." Mar 5:36

"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" Mar 9:24

Jhn 1:7 "This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. "

Jhn 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

There's too many to post... I have to get to class.

 

[Nadiine]

"So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:31

"...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. " Rom 10:9

""The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mar 1:15

""Do not be afraid; only believe." Mar 5:36

"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" Mar 9:24

Jhn 1:7 "This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. "

Jhn 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name"

There's too many to post... I have to get to class.

I'm sorry but this is splitting hairs... your verses don't "cancel out" the ones I used.

The issue is, not all who claim Christ ARE GENUINELY BORN AGAIN - not what salvation IS. The issue is the HEART here, not the "formula".

& I'll give you a perfect example: who would have thought or known that Ted Haggard was secretly carrying on with homosexuality behind the scenes while he had a wife & kids - the President of an evangelical org.
Did you know that? I didn't. My point is, you don't truly know people's hearts, but GOD DOES. While we would have thought he was holy and righteous from the outside, inwardly, he was sexually living another life - while practicing adultery.
Is he genuinely saved? Who knows. The point is, people who claim Christ aren't always what they seem.

Worse, many claim Christ & have no fruit that differentiates them from the world's standards. They're basically rebellious to scripture teachings.
Are they actually saved just becuz they profess God's name? Doubtful.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ok wait... they believe in Christ and call themselves Christians but they aren't? I would think it's the ones who call themselves Christians but don't believe that are false professors.

It does show those who PROFESS to KNOW GOD but by their DEEDS they deny Him. We are to pick up our cross (deny ourselves) and FOLLOW HIM. Many LIVE as ememies of he cross. Its not in word only the denial of Him occurs. Its being ashamed of his words in the DOING of them. He asks, "why do you say Lord Lord and not do what I say?" Its ones disobedience to HIM, the gospel (His words).

Who hath BELIEVED the report? but they have not all OBEYED theres the stumbling at the word. Being disobedient to Him.

2Thes 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The "house of God" is ~synonomous~ with those who ~obey~ the gospel as opposed with those who obey not the gospel. Yet our obedience is fulfulled 2Cr 10:6 As we are to come to the "obedience" of the faith Rom 16:26

2Titus 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having ~this seal~, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let ~every one~ that nameth the name of Christ ~depart from~ iniquity.

If not He says...

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess ~unto them~, I never knew you: ~depart~ from me, ye that work iniquity.

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and ~mark them~ which ~WALK~ SO as ye have ~us~ for ~an ensample~.

Its their WALK, the FOLLOWING IN ~THE WAY~ IN DEED and IN TRUTH (not SAYERS but DOERS) as persecution comes to those who seek to LIVE GODLY (not OTHERWISE) in Christ.

Phil 3:18 (For many ~WALK~, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are ~the enemies~ of the cross of Christ:

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)



Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Sojourner<><]

I'm sorry but this is splitting hairs... your verses don't "cancel out" the ones I used.

Right, but the scripture you quoted is to be understood in the light of these and all others.

The issue is, not all who claim Christ ARE GENUINELY BORN AGAIN - not what salvation IS. The issue is the HEART here, not the "formula".

& I'll give you a perfect example: who would have thought or known that Ted Haggard was secretly carrying on with homosexuality behind the scenes while he had a wife & kids - the President of an evangelical org.
Did you know that? I didn't. My point is, you don't truly know people's hearts, but GOD DOES. While we would have thought he was holy and righteous from the outside, inwardly, he was sexually living another life - while practicing adultery.
Is he genuinely saved? Who knows. The point is, people who claim Christ aren't always what they seem.

Worse, many claim Christ & have no fruit that differentiates them from the world's standards. They're basically rebellious to scripture teachings.
Are they actually saved just becuz they profess God's name? Doubtful.

I'm sorry but how does any of that contradict what I said: those who profess Christ but do not believe are the false brethren?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would strongly recommend that you put down your Koran and start reading your Bible. That is where the truth is found.

Hi. I would agree as many ex-CHRIST-ians have delved into the books of other religions, such as the Pagan books: the Jewish Talmud and Muslims Koran, and the writings of Buddahism, Hinduism etc.

Btw, I would recommend those Apologists that wish to engage the Muslims on the "Moon god" go to this this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2948564-allah-could-be-the-pagan-moon-god-al-ilah-mh.html

quote Muslim: I have doubts even there was a 'moon god' called Allah, that idol was known as Sin in sumer,actually there wasnt any idol called Allah...even pagan arabs who worship 360 idols didnt make an idol for Allah,they accepted Allah without any idol..and yes the cresent moon had been a sing of islam with turks long after the Prophet.The first cresent moon was put on a church replacing it with the cross to convert the building a mosque about 200 years after the Prophet.

The proof cited for the connection between the pagan Allah and the Islamic Allah is the crescent moon, which was the symbol of pagan Allah, and supposedly carried over to Islam. Problem with that argument is just, the crescent moon was never an early symbol of Islam, it only became so 800 years later when the Ottoman Empire adopted it as its coat of arms. So, this connection is nonexistent at best.

 

[Sojourner<><]

It does show those who PROFESS to KNOW GOD but by their DEEDS they deny Him. We are to pick up our cross (deny ourselves) and FOLLOW HIM. Many LIVE as ememies of he cross. Its not in word only the denial of Him occurs. Its being ashamed of his words in the DOING of them. He asks, "why do you say Lord Lord and not do what I say?" Its ones disobedience to HIM, the gospel (His words).

Who hath BELIEVED the report? but they have not all OBEYED theres the stumbling at the word. Being disobedient to Him.

2Thes 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The "house of God" is ~synonomous~ with those who ~obey~ the gospel as opposed with those who obey not the gospel. Yet our obedience is fulfulled 2Cr 10:6 As we are to come to the "obedience" of the faith Rom 16:26

2Titus 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having ~this seal~, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let ~every one~ that nameth the name of Christ ~depart from~ iniquity.

If not He says...

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess ~unto them~, I never knew you: ~depart~ from me, ye that work iniquity.

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and ~mark them~ which ~WALK~ SO as ye have ~us~ for ~an ensample~.

Its their WALK, the FOLLOWING IN ~THE WAY~ IN DEED and IN TRUTH (not SAYERS but DOERS) as persecution comes to those who seek to LIVE GODLY (not OTHERWISE) in Christ.

Phil 3:18 (For many ~WALK~, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are ~the enemies~ of the cross of Christ:

Phil 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)



Peace

Fireinfolding

I think it's fair to say that the best logical conclusion is that those who profess Christ and truly believe MUST and DO depart from iniquity because God chastises those whom He loves, and yet they are still sinners until they die and are perfected in Christ. A person cannot serve two masters, he might try but he will always end up serving one or the other, never both.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think it's fair to say that the best logical conclusion is that those who profess Christ and truly believe MUST and DO depart from iniquity because God chastises those whom He loves, and yet they are still sinners until they die and are perfected in Christ. A person cannot serve two masters, he might try but he will always end up serving one or the other, never both.

And by the same token those who profess GOD should depart from inquity also, correct? Even if they do not believe unto the CHRIST of our Bible, such as the Jews and Muslims.
Here was an intersting quote from a Jew on a thread concerning what CHRIST-ians would call "Pagan books" today. Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2875676-differences-between-talmud-and-koran.html
Differences between Talmud and Koran

quote Jew:
Hi all!

I find it strange that the followers of any faith with traditions that cherish learning and scholarship should seek to tout their faith and its holy book by disparaging, denigrating and libelling others' faiths and holy books, as if the former depended on the latter. One believes what one believes and one's beliefs should stand on their own and should not have to be defined in reference to other beliefs, and certainly not by defaming other beliefs. How do I build myself up by tearing down my fellow? I don't; I can't.
====================

Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood. 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow. 18 " Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD,

 

[Sojourner<><]

And by the same token those who profess GOD should depart from inquity also, correct? Even if they do not believe unto the CHRIST of our Bible, such as the Jews and Muslims.
Here was an intersting quote from a Jew on a thread concerning what CHRIST-ians would call "Pagan books" today. Peace.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2875676-differences-between-talmud-and-koran.htmlDifferences between Talmud and Koran

quote Jew:
Hi all!

I find it strange that the followers of any faith with traditions that cherish learning and scholarship should seek to tout their faith and its holy book by disparaging, denigrating and libelling others' faiths and holy books, as if the former depended on the latter. One believes what one believes and one's beliefs should stand on their own and should not have to be defined in reference to other beliefs, and certainly not by defaming other beliefs. How do I build myself up by tearing down my fellow? I don't; I can't.
====================

Isaiah 1:15 When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; Even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood. 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow. 18 " Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD,

Not exactly. One who professes God but rejects Christ infact rejects the true invisible God and professes a lie.

Christ is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not exactly. One who professes God but rejects Christ infact rejects the true invisible God and professes a lie.

Christ is the image of the invisible God. Col 1:15

But of course.

Reve 22:14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

 

[sunlover1]

The problem here is defining who "they" are.

Are they people who claim that Christ came to save only the elect? Or all mankind? (Both can be defended from Scripture.)

Are they the ones who preach that Christ is of the same nature as the Father, or of like nature with the Father? (There's an iota of difference in those two concepts! )

Are they the ones who believe that baptism and communion are God working through his clergy to grant grace through physical elements of His Creation? Or the ones who believe that His grace is exclusively spiritual, and that baptism and communion are only things which we do because He ordained that they be done?

Are they the ones to draw lines to shut others out? Or the ones to draw lines to bring others in?

And I'm quite in agreement but I
was showing 'needprayersdaily' that
CHRIST has to be the Way to God.
All these other things... I dunno, maybe
perephrials. But no one is trying to
shut up heaven, except those who
would lie to them and tell them
there is another way.
The Gospel, that's the GOOD news!!

Does God hear the prayers of unbelievers? How about those who believe, but don't believe quite the right things?

Like all of us.
But still, Jesus Christ is
the Way, right?

Is His ability to save greater or less than the lines we draw?

Do you believe there is another way
to God other than Jesus?

sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And I'm quite in agreement but I
was showing 'needprayersdaily' that
CHRIST has to be the Way to God.
All these other things... I dunno, maybe
perephrials. But no one is trying to
shut up heaven, except those who
would lie to them and tell them
there is another way.
The Gospel, that's the GOOD news!!


Like all of us.
But still, Jesus Christ is
the Way, right?


Do you believe there is another way
to God other than Jesus?

sunlover

Hi. But don't forget another thing, the Jews and Muslims do not read our book of Revelation or the NT/NC which shows that the CHRIST is indeed the only WAY>

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Acts 13:29 and when they did complete all the things written about Him, having taken [him] down from the Tree/xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb;

Reve 22:14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree/xulon <3586> of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

xulon (Strong's 3586) occurs 19 times in 17 verses AV - tree 10, staff 5, wood 3, stocks 1; 19

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

bump.....interesting topic.....

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think it's fair to say that the best logical conclusion is that those who profess Christ and truly believe MUST and DO depart from iniquity because God chastises those whom He loves, and yet they are still sinners until they die and are perfected in Christ. A person cannot serve two masters, he might try but he will always end up serving one or the other, never both.

They are sealed with ~the seal~ that HE most certainly KNOWS who are HIS Who stand in the Truth (The Cross of Christ) rather the I know you NOT (denying Him by their DEEDS) who LIVE as an enemies of the Cross. Its the GRACE of God (we know) which bringeth salvation that has appeared to ALL MEN but its the grace of God that TEACHES US to DENY worldly and ungodly LUSTS and to live godly, righteously and soberly IN THIS PRESENT WORLD.

All who seek TO LIVE Godly in Christ shall be persecuted.

Yet we must look at this and agree here

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's ~have~ crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Listed in Gal 5:19-22... Underlined most overlooked

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry (covetous is Col 3:5), witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and ~such like~: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

As much as we might like to push this aside

1John 5:18 We know that ~whosoever~ is born of God ~sinneth not~; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that ~Jesus is the Christ~ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat ~loveth him also~ that is begotten of him.

1John5:2 By ~this~ we ~know~ that we love the children of God, ~when~ we love God, and keep ~his commandments~.


1John 5:3 For this is ~the love of God~, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments ~are not grievous~.

1John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is ~the victory~ that overcometh the world, even our faith.

This too is true...

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but ~the word preached~ did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Abraham who believed God was a friend of God but Abraham obeyed God.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is how He is "disallowed"

1Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders ~disallowed~, the same is made the head of the corner,

1Peter 2:8 And a stone ~of stumbling~, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God;(NOT they they DO NOT) but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate



Though the longsuffering of the Lord waits and is salvation as we were all disobedient we are called to the obedience of the faith, a faith that works by love and He that loveth Him obeys his commands.

1John 2:4 He that ~saith~, I know HIM,(Not that he does NOT) and keepeth ~not~ his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1John 4:20 If a man ~say~, I love GOD (Not that he does NOT) and hateth ~his brother~, ~he~ is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, HOW CAN HE~ love GOD~whom he hath not seen?

Thats what Jesus pointed out in the Pharisees he saw not the "love of God" in them through their treatment of HIM who they SAW (who honoured his Father) So the same holds true for us.... HOW CAN the love of God (who they have not seen) be in such ones who love not their brethren (them who they can see).

Lots of THAT though as the MANY LIVE as ememies of the cross. Though their profession seems to lack nothing their DEEDS can and do deny Him (being disobedient to Him)

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[sunlover1]

Hi. But don't forget another thing, the Jews and Muslims do not read our book of Revelation or the NT/NC which shows that the CHRIST is indeed the only WAY>

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Acts 13:29 and when they did complete all the things written about Him, having taken [him] down from the Tree/xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb;

Reve 22:14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree/xulon <3586> of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

xulon (Strong's 3586) occurs 19 times in 17 verses AV - tree 10, staff 5, wood 3, stocks 1; 19

Hi LLOJ.
I don't understand your point.
Do you believe then that for
the muslim and Jew that Jesus
Christ isn't the only way to God??

And if so, what other way would
there be?

sunlover

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi LLOJ.
I don't understand your point.
Do you believe then that for
the muslim and Jew that Jesus
Christ isn't the only way to God??

And if so, what other way would
there be?

sunlover

I am saying anyone outside of the CHRIST is not following the Way and Truth that is outside of JESUS.
That includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists etc. The hardest part is explaining to them why the CHRIST had to be "Sacrificed" and unless they read the book of Revelation/Isaiah, then how will they know?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Acts 13:29 and when they did complete all the things written about Him, having taken [him] down from the Tree/xulou<3586>, they laid Him in a tomb;

Reve 3:9 "Indeed I will make [those] of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie -- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Reve 22:14 Blessed [are] those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree/xulon <3586> of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [are] dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

xulon (Strong's 3586) occurs 19 times in 17 verses AV - tree 10, staff 5, wood 3, stocks 1; 19

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hmmm. Still no CHRIST-ians over here refuting ALLAH to the Muslims.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2948564-allah-could-be-the-pagan-moon-god-al-ilah-mh.html
allah-could-be-the-pagan-moon-god-al-ilah-mh

Say : He is Allah , the One! Allah , the eternally Besought of all!He begetteth not nor was begotten .And there is none comparable unto Him .
( Chapter 112 )