All who are in church

[OzSpen]

I attend a church were many members are intolerant to those who aren't Baptist. One member stated, "If they aren't Baptist they are wrong". Another member stated, "If they ain't Baptist they are going straight to hell anyway". I could go on and on with more quotes but won't. However, there is one quote I would like to ask your thoughts on. "Everyone in the church is saved". He wasn't talking just about our church, but the church in general. I have a friend that goes to church for one reason, his wife asked him to go so the kids would go. I know a girl in a church from my hometown that only goes to find a boyfriend. I know a guy in our church is open to that fact that he goes because it's good for his business. I could give more cases like this and am sure you could as well. I do not believe that all people who go or are members of a church are saved. What are your thoughts on this matter? And to make sure I let others know, yes I am now a member of a Baptist church, but I do believe there are people from all denominations who are going to heaven! I believe there will be folks from every nationality, tongue, and tribe and every denomination as well. But what are your thoughts on my question, "do you believe all in church are saved?"

These are some verses that keep me on track when this kind of subject is discussed in relation to Christians and denominations. I'm not aware that there were denominations like we have today in the early church. Factions, but not denominations.

Those verses are in Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (NIV)

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Keachian]

Yes, there are some who are not truly a part of the Church, this is why John says; "they went out from us to show that they were not truly of us." and why the Writer of Hebrews says that it is impossible to restore some who have fallen away back to the Church.

 

[jamantc]

Yes, Oz and Prog, those were my thoughts as well. Matthew is pretty clear that there are many people who believed themselves saved and aren't. Scripture says we can't call Him Lord except through the spirit. Many call Him Lord with their tongues but not by the spirit and that is obvious in Matthew. John and Paul both made in clear as well. Peter made it clear as well when talking about false prophets. How should we think ourselves different in 2000 years later when the apostles dealt with the same thing we do today, but they didn't sugar coat it as we do!

 

[USCGrad90]

I have just read your reply since coming home from church, and actually have already done what you suggested early in the evening in private conversation with my pastor. We all seek each other's advice because sometimes we need it to help us see what we are missing and to help us correct it. We finished up our class tonight in our CLU classes for Wednesday night and the lesson we had tonight brought this same issue up front and personal and others in our church saw that it has been going and have chosen to sweep it under the rug (I did not now this prior to class tonight), but tonight they had to deal with it front and center. Thanks again for the advice, much appreciated my friend!

I am glad to hear you took initiative to speak with the pastor and that your lessons actually addressed this issue. It sounds like God is moving to deal with what you have felt in your heart.

 

[jamantc]

I am glad to hear you took initiative to speak with the pastor and that your lessons actually addressed this issue. It sounds like God is moving to deal with what you have felt in your heart.

thus far it is my friend!

 

[jamantc]

I am glad to hear you took initiative to speak with the pastor and that your lessons actually addressed this issue. It sounds like God is moving to deal with what you have felt in your heart.

This is what's most aggravating in whole situation. Out sunday school teacher is the deacon chairman. We have had the discussion over using words and whether they edify or tear down. This past sunday in sunday school, we had 3 visitors for bring a friend day. 2 of the 3 I know live in mobile homes, which is perfectly fine with me and I do not choose my friends based upon earthly, disposable status. Anyway, we are in the middle of the lesson and suddenly the teacher says, "same old trailer trash in brand new shoes because you can take the trash out of the trailer but not the trailer out the trash". This is the deacon chairman I remind you. After sunday school, my friend stated to me, we are not staying for preaching. I told them I understood and could not blame them. My friend is looking for a church to call home and his wife's words were, "if this is Christianity I want no part of it at this church". I was sadden to see them turned off by such actions in the church. Sad thing is, I had to remove myself from that class in order to maintain order in our building. I was totally shocked to hear such words, but I suppose I really shouldn't have been when I constantly hear the words crap (when referring to the lessons), it's just too freaking hard to understand sometimes (referring to the lessons), etc. Very sadden to say the least. I am trying to do things in the way the elders of the church have set forth because I have no desire to separate a church, but to have this action in one is scripturally uncalled for!

 

[USCGrad90]

This is what's most aggravating in whole situation. Out sunday school teacher is the deacon chairman. We have had the discussion over using words and whether they edify or tear down. This past sunday in sunday school, we had 3 visitors for bring a friend day. 2 of the 3 I know live in mobile homes, which is perfectly fine with me and I do not choose my friends based upon earthly, disposable status. Anyway, we are in the middle of the lesson and suddenly the teacher says, "same old trailer trash in brand new shoes because you can take the trash out of the trailer but not the trailer out the trash". This is the deacon chairman I remind you. After sunday school, my friend stated to me, we are not staying for preaching. I told them I understood and could not blame them. My friend is looking for a church to call home and his wife's words were, "if this is Christianity I want no part of it at this church". I was sadden to see them turned off by such actions in the church. Sad thing is, I had to remove myself from that class in order to maintain order in our building. I was totally shocked to hear such words, but I suppose I really shouldn't have been when I constantly hear the words crap (when referring to the lessons), it's just too freaking hard to understand sometimes (referring to the lessons), etc. Very sadden to say the least. I am trying to do things in the way the elders of the church have set forth because I have no desire to separate a church, but to have this action in one is scripturally uncalled for!

Have you spoken with him directly on this? I am a big believer in resolving issues based on Matthew 18:15-35. Sometimes it is hard, because we all naturally want to avoid conflict, and I understand how hard it would be to approach the Deacon chairman. I think your concerns warrant a personal discussion with him. If you avoid him or take your concerns to others first, it will simply build a wall between the two of you and not address the issue. If he does not acknowledge your concerns, then I would recommend you consult with the Pastor and ask to meet together. If your Pastor agrees with you and the man still will not acknowledge the concern, then it should be brought before the church - most likely in a regular business meeting. It would be my hope that your talking with him would help open his eyes to what he is doing, but sometimes it takes a Pastor to help leaders see their weaknesses.

 

[Willie T]

This is what's most aggravating in whole situation. Out sunday school teacher is the deacon chairman. We have had the discussion over using words and whether they edify or tear down. This past sunday in sunday school, we had 3 visitors for bring a friend day. 2 of the 3 I know live in mobile homes, which is perfectly fine with me and I do not choose my friends based upon earthly, disposable status. Anyway, we are in the middle of the lesson and suddenly the teacher says, "same old trailer trash in brand new shoes because you can take the trash out of the trailer but not the trailer out the trash". This is the deacon chairman I remind you. After sunday school, my friend stated to me, we are not staying for preaching. I told them I understood and could not blame them. My friend is looking for a church to call home and his wife's words were, "if this is Christianity I want no part of it at this church". I was sadden to see them turned off by such actions in the church. Sad thing is, I had to remove myself from that class in order to maintain order in our building. I was totally shocked to hear such words, but I suppose I really shouldn't have been when I constantly hear the words crap (when referring to the lessons), it's just too freaking hard to understand sometimes (referring to the lessons), etc. Very sadden to say the least. I am trying to do things in the way the elders of the church have set forth because I have no desire to separate a church, but to have this action in one is scripturally uncalled for!

Our congregation is probably very different than those any of you attend.

Many of us come from backgrounds the average person only reads about or sees on TV. And the language is sometimes a little too colorful for delicate sensibilities. And this is even from the pulpit. But it doesn't seem to bother too many people. I, personally, don't like the use of "freakin' ", because, let's face it, we all know that's just another way of saying f____. But is is still a part of some people's vocabulary. Our ministry IS to street people.

But, as my wife said to me last night, "Ya know, sometimes it's really hard to go to a "grace" church." This was after putting up with a blowhard's big mouth on the committee she helps with. Poor thing, she "unloaded" on me all the way home.

So, we deal with language and attitude in our church all the time. However, the comments of the deacon guy do seem to have been more prejudicial than environmental. I think that kind of stuff does need to be addressed.

 

[jamantc]

Have you spoken with him directly on this? I am a big believer in resolving issues based on Matthew 18:15-35. Sometimes it is hard, because we all naturally want to avoid conflict, and I understand how hard it would be to approach the Deacon chairman. I think your concerns warrant a personal discussion with him. If you avoid him or take your concerns to others first, it will simply build a wall between the two of you and not address the issue. If he does not acknowledge your concerns, then I would recommend you consult with the Pastor and ask to meet together. If your Pastor agrees with you and the man still will not acknowledge the concern, then it should be brought before the church - most likely in a regular business meeting. It would be my hope that your talking with him would help open his eyes to what he is doing, but sometimes it takes a Pastor to help leaders see their weaknesses.

I talked to him before last week in private after the morning service. He could have cared less. His statement, "words are just words and that all they are". I made it clear that in scripture it seems to disagree and even states words either edify or destroy. He walked off. Last night is when I addressed the pastor. Yes, we are meeting tomorrow morning, the three of us. I have made clear to the pastor that if it does not resolve I will bring this before the deacons and elders of the church and if that has no effect on this matter, it will be brought before the church.

 

[jamantc]

My opinion:
We Baptist are the denomination with less mistakes and the most close to the truly doctrine. But we Baptist can not claim to be without any mistake. For starting, Jesus our Lord commanded us to love each other and stay toghether. But if Baptist hate other Christians; if Baptist are so much divided in too many Baptist denomination... then we Baptist are wrong. Probably and surely not as wrong as others denominations... but we are wrong.

Not all people congregating in a Baptist Church is going to Heaven
Not all Christians going to Heaven congregate in a Baptist Chruch

Personally, I think reformed Baptist are closely to the truth of scripture. You are correct, that if hate becomes something in the church then the church is in err. The SBC especially has it's own problems right now, but due to the fact the world has crept ever so silently into the church and is taken control, and this deacon church is an example of that. He talks good, but walks sideways just as the world does. It's almost like a double minded man of that which scripture speaks. Yes, there are other denominations that do miss the mark and teach false doctrine I believe as well. It is a shame that this is occurring in such a church grounded in truth!

 

[jamantc]

Our congregation is probably very different than those any of you attend.

Many of us come from backgrounds the average person only reads about or sees on TV. And the language is sometimes a little too colorful for delicate sensibilities. And this is even from the pulpit. But it doesn't seem to bother too many people. I, personally, don't like the use of "freakin' ", because, let's face it, we all know that's just another way of saying f____. But is is still a part of some people's vocabulary. Our ministry IS to street people.

But, as my wife said to me last night, "Ya know, sometimes it's really hard to go to a "grace" church." This was after putting up with a blowhard's big mouth on the committee she helps with. Poor thing, she "unloaded" on me all the way home.

So, we deal with language and attitude in our church all the time. However, the comments of the deacon guy do seem to have been more prejudicial than environmental. I think that kind of stuff does need to be addressed.

I feel your wife's grief my brother! I was a curser (cusser) whichever word you wish to choose, before being saved. If I am around it enough, those old ways wish to creep back in and i have to be careful. I went from cursing when i became saved to the Christian slang cursing until i came to the point it wasn't right. It wasn't until i was convicted by the Spirit until i found those words offensive to the others. It is a shame

 

[Willie T]

I have to compliment you on the way you are handling this bit with the deacon boss. Most people would run straight to the preacher first, and that is not scriptural.

 

[jamantc]

I have to compliment you on the way you are handling this bit with the deacon boss. Most people would run straight to the preacher first, and that is not scriptural.

I am by far a legalist, but i do believe in church structure and order. I also believe the scripture is clear in telling us how to handle such matters. We confront our brethren first in love with out concern, if this does not work, we bring two with us, then if this does not work we involve the church. I thank you for your compliment from the depths of my heart, but I know that it is not I how is handling this but the Spirit through me, because left to handle this own my own, I would fail horribly and the flesh would rise in retaliation. Again, thank you, and thank you all also for the great encouragement given!