All predestined?

ICONO'CLAST

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devin

[Do you truly believe that only ministers will be saved? They are the called and chosen, and if so, why have a body of the church, a body in Christ, them that are faithful and not chosen or called to the ministry.

I don't see how you've proven your point using scripture yet.]


48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
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sdowney717

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devin

[Do you truly believe that only ministers will be saved? They are the called and chosen, and if so, why have a body of the church, a body in Christ, them that are faithful and not chosen or called to the ministry.

I don't see how you've proven your point using scripture yet.]


48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
What is wonderful about our calling, is our salvation is of God who is our Father, as Romans 8 teaches us. A certain hope.
 
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Steven Beck

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Please quote an exact scripture that specifies that some people are predestined for heaven and others are predestined for hell? Actually we need 2 or 3 scriptures since the bible stated that 2 or 3 witnesses are needed to establish a matter. 2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 
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Steven Beck

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The Bible says that God chooses us before we were born. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't like that answer, so they find another.
God chooses us for what exactly before we were born?
Please read Ephesians 1:4 very very carefully.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He hath chosen us IN HIM, for what purpose? Be holy and without blame before Him in love.

We have to be IN HIM first. How do we be IN HIM? By coming to the cross and accepting Him. Salvation comes first then he has chose US (Collective US not personal by name US) to be holy and blameless. What does it all mean simply. God the Father made a pact with Jesus the SON before the creation of the world that MANKIND will be holy and blameless in JESUS.
There is nothing there linking choosing you personally before you were born.
 
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Steven Beck

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Scripture however refers to predestined as having to do with salvation, not hell.
Scripture says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Scripture says nothing about being predestined for salvation either. :)
 
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John100

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So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

Girl! Everybody can go to heaven if stop sinning.
 
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Steven Beck

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This is what Ezekiel says about predestined/elected to be saved. It also puts a nail into 'once saved always saved'. :) You can substitute Jesus for righteousness in this passage since He is our righteousness.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
 
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Peter J Barban

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God chooses us for what exactly before we were born?
Please read Ephesians 1:4 very very carefully.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He hath chosen us IN HIM, for what purpose? Be holy and without blame before Him in love.

We have to be IN HIM first. How do we be IN HIM? By coming to the cross and accepting Him. Salvation comes first then he has chose US (Collective US not personal by name US) to be holy and blameless. What does it all mean simply. God the Father made a pact with Jesus the SON before the creation of the world that MANKIND will be holy and blameless in JESUS.
There is nothing there linking choosing you personally before you were born.
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

The Scripture clearly says that God chose us in him before the creation of the world and that he predestined us for adoption.

Don't try to nullify the clear word of God when it disagrees with your assumptions.
 
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Peter J Barban

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People often ignore Romans 9:6-29

The Key:
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

The Meaning
God has created and prepared some for mercy and some for wrath. We have no right to judge his choices.
 
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bling

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Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

The Scripture clearly says that God chose us in him before the creation of the world and that he predestined us for adoption.

Don't try to nullify the clear word of God when it disagrees with your assumptions.
God from the beginning of time predestined those who will in the future accept His charity to be given His charity.
 
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bling

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People often ignore Romans 9:6-29

The Key:
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

The Meaning
God has created and prepared some for mercy and some for wrath. We have no right to judge his choices.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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Peter J Barban

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Remember that Romans 9 is focused on God choosing, God predestining, God preparing some for mercy and some for wrath, before they were even born in the case of Esau and Jacob.

"10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

So it is not like Paul is teaching that people become bad and then they are prepared for God's wrath. Instead, they are prepared for wrath before they do anything. Before their creation, some are destined for mercy and some for wrath.
 
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fhansen

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So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.
No one is predestined to hell-to be punished eternally-that would be quite an evil thing to do. God uses our choices in any case to determine our ultimate fates.
 
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bling

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Remember that Romans 9 is focused on God choosing, God predestining, God preparing some for mercy and some for wrath, before they were even born in the case of Esau and Jacob.

"10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

So it is not like Paul is teaching that people become bad and then they are prepared for God's wrath. Instead, they are prepared for wrath before they do anything. Before their creation, some are destined for mercy and some for wrath.
I explained: The verse: Ro. 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathprepared for destruction, does not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter: “clay pigeons”, no potter of that time made clay pigeons). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality and would have the potter’s mark. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group by becoming damaged and unworthy of the potter’s mark, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. There are vessels God does develop a great wrath against and will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction, since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed. As Paul says in 2 Tim 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

The vessels themselves can change over time.

Why would God need to make “clay pigeons”?

Can vessels themselves change over time according to Paul?

Do we all not start out as common vessels today?
 
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Ronald

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Well if you are going to go with scripture and that idea of predestination then only the people at that time of Christ and in Ephesus are chosen, Oh and Paul included himself? Or did you have another scripture reference?

Ephesians 1:1-5

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The letter is to the Christians in Ephesus, the message to all and applicable to all Christians as are all the epistles.
All Christians have been predestined for salvation prior to their existence. It's hard for some to grasp. God operates outside our time domain, is not confines to time and so knows the end from the beginning. If this were not so, prophecy about the future could not have been written. But it was and much has been fulfilled exactly how it said it would be. His plans for this world are complete, ordained, they are just being played out. He orchestrates them like a symphony, in detail, in perfect time and in perfect harmony. We participate, having factored in all our flaws and errors, allowing good and evil, woven together through history. The Book of Life was written before Adam with all the names in it that were, are and will be saved- try to wrap heart head around that. You can't _ just accept it.
 
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sdowney717

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This is what Ezekiel says about predestined/elected to be saved. It also puts a nail into 'once saved always saved'. :) You can substitute Jesus for righteousness in this passage since He is our righteousness.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Different covenant entirely, and a covenant to the people of God, technically they were saved by faith too. These words are not written to the unbelieving world nations. God has deliberately rendered the OC obsolete and it has been done away with 100%.
 
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So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

This is a controversial issue, here is my take on it.

Predestination to salvation, or,condemnation (AKA unconditional election) is a very clear biblical doctrine, that as far as I can tell is one of the most decisive teaching in the New Testament. Some, completely disregard election, others fully support it, others fall in the middle.

Unconditional Election, is tied at the hip with the doctrine of total depravity. Specifically, since humanity is conceived, and born in sin our nature is totally depraved, and by our own efforts we cannot love God, believe in God, or seek God. And cannot be reconciled to God.

So, the doctrine of unconditional election is this.

Before the foundation of the world, God chose those he would bring to salvation by his grace through faith in his son Christ Jesus. However, this choice was not based on anything special about the person elected, nor was it like a military muster where every third person was chosen, it was based on his own council, which humanity is not privy to.

In the end, all of humanity is sinful, and justly condemned. But since we have a gracious God, some people receive mercy, others are passed by and receive justice...but no one receives injustice.

The bible does not teach election to condemnation, so, I have no opinion on that.

I struggled with this doctrine for some time, but finally accepted it because God's Word teaches it.

You will hear people say they believe in election, and will say something like this "yes God chose those for salvation, because he looked down the tunnel of time and saw who would believe, and based his election on his foreknowledge" This view should be rejected.

Others completely disregard this doctrine, and will say "you have to make a decision for salvation" this view is also flawed, and should be rejected.

No one ever made a decision to be saved, salvation is 100% God's work, our role is completely passive.

Remember, humanity is totally depraved in God's eyes, and if not for his mercy we would all be justly condemned.

If salvation was humanities decision, Christ died for nothing, because no one would make a decision for Jesus, nor could we.
 
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