All predestined?

[SayaOtonashi]

So I have seen this a lot on here forum. Some saying we are predestined and others say we aren’t. So are we all predestined to be in hell or heaven? Is it a lie that whoever believe in Jesus l? Whoever.

 

[sdowney717]

That is exactly what scriptures have said. People who believe were predestined which is why they believed. Those who never believe were not predestined to believe.

 

[sdowney717]

All saints are predestined, they are also faithful.
Saints is not a catholic term, this term refers to His people.
Ephesians 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[devin553344]

I think we have to careful not to judge God. We must believe in an all knowing and all powerful God that can create creatures that have free will. Yes he's that intelligent. We could have been predestined for hell, but then God reached out to us and delivered us from that destiny and into heaven.

So are we pre-destined? Yes everyone is predestined to go to hell thru the Fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus came along and changed that destiny. And from time to time he reaches out to people and delivers us from that destiny. He also requires us to reach out to people and proclaim the good word of salvation, so we can also help to change that destiny.

Does that make sense?

 

[sdowney717]

I think we have to careful not to judge God. We must believe in an all knowing and all powerful God that can create creatures that have free will. Yes he's that intelligent. We could have been predestined for hell, but then God reached out to us and delivered us from that destiny and into heaven.

So are we pre-destined? Yes everyone is predestined to go to hell thru the Fall of Adam and Eve. Jesus came along and changed that destiny. And from time to time he reaches out to people and delivers us from that destiny. He also requires us to reach out to people and proclaim the good word of salvation, so we can also help to change that destiny.

Does that make sense?

Scripture however refers to predestined as having to do with salvation, not hell.
Scripture says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

 

[sdowney717]

And the us and the we in Ephesians 1:4 is referring to the saints, by definition His saints are faithful since they abide in Christ, being they are His sheep, they hear Him speak, and they follow Him and He gives them eternal life.

Obviously those predestined are not born having eternal life or born saved, just that they will be in the fullness of their time according to God's purposes, election, calling for them.

 

[devin553344]

Scripture however refers to predestined as having to do with salvation, not hell.
Scripture says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

Well if you are going to go with scripture and that idea of predestination then only the people at that time of Christ and in Ephesus are chosen, Oh and Paul included himself? Or did you have another scripture reference?

Ephesians 1:1-5

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[devin553344]

Well if you are going to go with scripture and that idea of predestination then only the people at that time of Christ and in Ephesus are chosen, Oh and Paul included himself? Or did you have another scripture reference?

Ephesians 1:1-5

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

But that's talking about being chosen not saved I think. There is a difference

 

[sdowney717]

Well if you are going to go with scripture and that idea of predestination then only the people at that time of Christ and in Ephesus are chosen, Oh and Paul included himself? Or did you have another scripture reference?

Ephesians 1:1-5

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

It is written to the Ephesian saints only of Paul's time??
How about the saints in Rome?
Is it a universal truth for the church.
The church is made up of all those that God called, because whom He called, He also justified. (saved)
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[devin553344]

Also if you're going to attempt to reference a chosen verse, you might attempt to argue Matthew 22:13-14

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

But even that could be saying that during the judgement God will judge then choose who will be saved.

 

[devin553344]

It is written to the Ephesian saints only??
How about the saints in Rome?
Is it a universal truth for the church.
The church is made up of all those that God called, because whom He called, He also justified. (saved)
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And yet I still don't see a reference stating that called or chosen are the only saved.

 

[sdowney717]

And yet I still don't see a reference stating that called or chosen are the only saved.

Revelation 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Do you think there will be saved people who wont be with Christ?

 

[sdowney717]

Here is a verse that should clear that up. Christ is the giver of eternal llife to all the church through all the ages.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[devin553344]

Revelation 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Do you think there will be saved people who wont be with Christ?

Revelation uses the conjunction "and" for adding "faithful" to the saved. So they may not be called or chosen, depending on how you interpret that verse:

They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

 

[devin553344]

Here is a verse that should clear that up. Christ is the giver of eternal llife to all the church through all the ages.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

That still is not inclusive of all that are saved. My point here is that, while yes, he does call and choose people for his ministry, that is not the entirety of whom will be saved. We have free will and if we become faithful (if people reach out to us and teach us the gospel) we may become saved.

 

[sdowney717]

That still is not inclusive of all that are saved. My point here is that, while yes, he does call and choose people for his ministry, that is not the entirety of whom will be saved. We have free will and if we become faithful (if people reach out to us and teach us the gospel) we may become saved.

These other people that you mention are all part of the same predestined group.
For example God visited all nations to take out of them a people for His name.
That would be all those the Lord our God will call.
The promise of eternal life is to as many as the Lord will call.
There is no scripture that says those not called get eternal life.

Acts 15
2 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

 

[devin553344]

These other people that you mention are all part of the same predestined group.
For example God visited all nations to take out of them a people for His name.
That would be all those the Lord our God will call.
The promise of eternal life is to as many as the Lord will call.
There is no scripture that says those not called get eternal life.

Acts 15
2 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Do you truly believe that only ministers will be saved? They are the called and chosen, and if so, why have a body of the church, a body in Christ, them that are faithful and not chosen or called to the ministry.

I don't see how you've proven your point using scripture yet.

But I will support your idea of being called such that we are all called to repent and be saved, God made that call already, we just need to include everyone! Like I said, we are all predestined to hell thru the fall, but to heaven thru Christ:

Mark 2:15-17

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 5:32

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[sdowney717]

Do you truly believe that only ministers will be saved? They are the called and chosen, and if so, why have a body of the church, a body in Christ, them that are faithful and not chosen or called to the ministry.

I don't see how you've proven your point using scripture yet.

But I will support your idea of being called such that we are all called to repent and be saved, God made that call already, we just need to include everyone! Like I said, we are all predestined to hell thru the fall, but to heaven thru Christ:

Mark 2:15-17

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Luke 5:32

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
Sure, but the word 'call' is used to convey different meanings depending on context.
You can not agree that Romans 8 uses called in the same way as Luke 5 does. It would lose any comprehension to what the verse actually says.
Since in Romans 8, those He called, he justified. so everyone He called, whom He had prior foreknown and predestined ended up being saved, all of them.

 

[devin553344]

Sure, but the word 'call' is used to convey different meanings depending on context.

I agree that these scriptural references are open to multiple interpretation. Your view is clearly different than mine. It does say that we are saved by grace thru faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So then the faithful get saved. But you believe that in order to be faithful you must be chosen by God. Remember he called all sinners unto repentance. And why call them to repentance if not to save them?

 

[devin553344]

I agree that these scriptural references are open to multiple interpretation. Your view is clearly different than mine. It does say that we are saved by grace thru faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So then the faithful get saved. But you believe that in order to be faithful you must be chosen by God. Remember he called all sinners unto repentance. And why call them to repentance if not to save them?

Probably a good reference: John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.