All have sinned?

[chilehed]

No. The fruit of your adamant rejection of the Word is abundantly evident. We judge the fruits....

You didn't just say that I've got this one issue wrong, you indicated that you believe that I and the truth have nothing in common. In Christian parlance, that's an unmistakable statement that I'm partners with Satan. You have, in fact, presumed to judge the state of my soul. You might not want to admit it, but you have done so nonetheless. But we needn't discuss it any further.

So then you deny even the theoretical possibility that you could be in error in this matter? You believe that your understanding of the meaning of Scripture on this point is guaranteed by the Holy Sprit to be without error? And that my understanding, which is based on the Sacred Scripture which we have in common, is thus guaranteed to be wrong?

...If this were a discussion on evidence for the flood or something the Lord has not shed light on, I would be open. In the nursery of the Holy Spirit, He made this one quite plain. It's not complicated. Everybody sinned. Everyone has a nature contrary to the righteousness of God, even if they fulfilled what He asked of them. Everyone, even today, has a carnal mind they have to turn from and become leavened with the Spirit of God to please God. To deny this, would be to deny every the best teacher in the world has shown. It's a lesson learned everyday, because even the most filled and fruitful saints today step in carnality from time to time. Every day, I face the same thing. All have sinned...

It's nothing personal. Your vehement rejection of the scripture in favor of reasonings that exalt itself above the Word are the very things we take authority over as words from the enemy. It will keep you preferring the church over the Word of the Head, Jesus.

So then that would be a "yes", correct?

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm not judging you as a person. Your part in seeking truth is obviously totally negligent.

#177 (Referring to #175) "Mary must have been evil, boastful, foolish, greedy or wicked..." We have 2 natures. This is why we're considered wicked. We fall short.
#180 You completely ignore the topic of the thread, which I take as an admission that you have no coherent rebuttal.

This translates to: I don't hear what you said.

The reason I gave these precepts to you was because you thought Mary was considered "wicked" because of what it said in the Psalms. I explained because this is how all men are considered next to God. Next to the righteousness that He requires.

#181 All means ALL

#182 You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception.

#182 As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life.
#182 So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.

Were talking about Romans 3. No try to put a "burden" on the scripture by necessitating it means that everywhere or "it falls apart".

#182 Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.

#185 I explain righteousness, since you believe I change the definition. It is not limited to one passage. It literally is right standing and is based on God's requirement.

In the New Covenant, God requires His righteousness to fellowship with Him as a son. Man's deeds fall short. Only "in Christ" are we righteous.

#187 You spend an awful lot of time talking about things other than the topic of this thread.

I'm responding to your statement.

#187 This is a common strategy: to try to bury someone in verses on an unrelated topic,
#187 none of which actually support your conclusion,

If you accuse me changing righteousness, you do not accept the scriptures as relevant. Your rebut to your accusation is that I'm employing a tactic to deceive.

#187 and steadfastly refuse to look closely at any single one of them lest you find out that you don't understand it.
#187 The topic of this thread is Romans 3:23, and the question of whether that passage of scripture proves that Mary sinned.

This translates to: I don't care what the scriptures say about righteousness. I can make an accusation, and I don't have to hear your defense.

#187 I won't repost the OP which describes how it's a quote from the Psalms, nor will I repost the discussion of the use of the word "all" in Scripture and in common usage. #187 It's patently obvious that you've not read them, or are completely ignoring them, or both.

I've already explained in #181 about why the term "wicked" does apply to all men.

I appeal to your rudeness and failure to listen to replies given to you in response to the things you say.

"This talk of a "lack of a coherent rebuttal", "logical fallacies" based on your perception of what you feel is a change of terminology, "absurd notions" that one word means the same thing in all circumstances "without exception" or my argument "falling apart" lacks the common decency you'd show your family members (we are your family)." "So, can we can resume addressing your questions(s) without being made to feel that you have no patience to engage in a meaningful discussion, in Christian love? I say "questions" - (plural because you've made some additional statements beyond your OP that require addressing) They're not off topic, because you made them."

"As I have stated, the passage points out that the nature of man is corrupt. Although the Psalms they make reference to may seem to point out exceptionally bad qualities, there is an inherent wickedness that is inherited by all men and women as a result of Adam's sin. I previously listed the scriptures about the first Adam and the last Adam. The scriptures provide a picture of the totality of mankind needing a savior as a result of Adam."

"Everyone showed up for the parade" doesn't come close to "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." When the Word says that "All have sinned", it means what it said. ALL HAVE SINNED."

#195 I can't help the fact that you're offended when someone points out that your arguments are logically flawed

Really! The logic is that they mean what they say. Notice the "Let God be true but every man a liar". That's in the same chapter!

#196
...let God be true, but every man a liar Romans 3
...we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin Romans 3
...there is none righteous, no, not one Romans 3
...there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God Romans 3
...they are all gone out of the way Romans 3
...there is none that doeth good, Romans 3
...no, not one Romans 3
...that every mouth may be stopped Romans 3
...all the world may become guilty before God Romans 3
...for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3

#195 or that you think that Christian charity demands I ignore it in a discussion such as this.

You've ignored it all along. All the world may become guilty.

#195 If you wish to convince me of the error of my position then you'll need to do so with logical arguments, and if your arguments are irrational then I'll tell you so.

The logic you have is that somewhere else in the Bible, a word might indicate something different. Here's all the logic you need: Within the context of Romans 3...

#198 Your entire line of reasoning is based on the assumption that all necessarily means every instance without exception.
#198 Since that assumption is not only unproven but demonstrably false, your argument collapses.

By insisting on this, you can actually say that ANY scripture in the Bible might not mean what it says.

#198 You're using your own fallible human reasoning to come to a conclusion about what Scripture means, and then confusing your conclusion with actual Scripture.

Does this not sound like the enemy? I'm telling you, it means what it says. Let every man be a liar.

#198 So when you tell me that the Romans 3:23 proves that Mary must have sinned, and yet the texts itself don't support your position, then I'm gonna believe Scripture rather than you.

Now you say you're gonna believe scripture! The ultimate twist.

#199 That sounds nice, but if you're going to do that, why don't you receive it as Romans 3 preaches it.
#199 The context of the chapter, says that every man, Jew and Gentile, no one is righteous, all sin, no one understands, everyone is out of the way; all the world is guilty.
#199 Do I sound confused with such convincing evidence?

The question was: So then it really is your contention that every time the word all is used in Sacred Scripture, it means "every instance without exception"?
I don't have any idea what other scripture you're referring to.

#219 That would be a "no", then.

You did not provide any scripture to indicate otherwise. If I were to say "We were all blessed". All would relate to the context of what was speaking. We're talking about Romans 3. If you want to stay "on topic" let's keep the context to the chapter.

 

[Alive_Again]

A more concise review of your "search" for truth...

And so my comment: "..I truly wish that I could say that you have any part in the truth...." (in this discussion)

#180 You completely ignore the topic of the thread, which I take as an admission that you have no coherent rebuttal.
#182 You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception.
#182 So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.
#182 Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.
#187 You spend an awful lot of time talking about things other than the topic of this thread.
#187 This is a common strategy: to try to bury someone in verses on an unrelated topic,
#187 none of which actually support your conclusion,
#187 and steadfastly refuse to look closely at any single one of them
#187 The topic of this thread is Romans 3:23, and the question of whether that passage of scripture proves that Mary sinned.
#187 I won't repost the OP which describes how it's a quote from the Psalms, nor will I repost the discussion of the use of the word "all" in Scripture and in common usage. #187 It's patently obvious that you've not read them, or are completely ignoring them, or both.
lest you find out that you don't understand it.

#195 I can't help the fact that you're offended when someone points out that your arguments are logically flawed
#195 or that you think that Christian charity demands I ignore it in a discussion such as this.
#195 If you wish to convince me of the error of my position then you'll need to do so with logical arguments, and if your arguments are irrational then I'll tell you so.

#198 Your entire line of reasoning is based on the assumption that all necessarily means every instance without exception.
#198 Since that assumption is not only unproven but demonstrably false, your argument collapses.
#198 You're using your own fallible human reasoning to come to a conclusion about what Scripture means, and then confusing your conclusion with actual Scripture.
#198 So when you tell me that the Romans 3:23 proves that Mary must have sinned, and yet the texts itself don't support your position, then I'm gonna believe Scripture rather than you. (!!!)

We're gonna confine ourselves to the context...
Demonstrably true...
The infallible Word of God...
It's as rational as it gets...
You don't believe in scripture...
Any other mentions are to answer your statements...
This is a mightily coherent rebuttal...
You're the one changing the definitions...

Here it is, one more time...the plain truth.

Everyone comes short of the glory of God (they sin)
Every man is a liar.
No one is righteous on their own.
All Jews and Gentiles are under sin.
No one understands or seeks God in His righteousness
Everyone is out of the way.
Not even one does good in the sight of God.
Every mouth may be stopped.
ALL THE WORLD is guilty before God.

If you can change the Word here to mean something else, when it speaks of all mankind, you can change any of the Word.

That is the tactic of the devil. Whether or not you choose to side with him is your choice.

To say that it is not plain is to agree with a lie, unless of course you are admittedly deceived (which you no doubt deny).

So take your pick! I wish it were not so. I wish you could say, "The Word is plain". Praise the Lord. Instead you ask me to consider the possibility that I might be wrong here. Don't get me wrong, I'm wrong about MANY things in life, but the Word is true, and God Himself (without any Pope as a middle man) ministers truth, and is no lie. This is foundational Christianity. I'll be praying for you because concerning the scripture, you are "flexible" as to "alternate" meanings, and the Word is your foundation. I'm sorry it is this way.

Again, it means what it says.

I truly hope you see this one day.

 

[Kepha]

It's not about protestants and catholics. It's about Christians and God's Word.

It's about Scripture being your sole rule of authority and the big gaping hole in it's logic.

As I previously stated: We now have a religious system in place (which God still endeavors to work through) where it is thought that miracles, apostles, prophets, etc. are "over". This is the surest sign of deception. It is the fruits of the church that bear witness to the Father being in us.

So if I say the Catholic Church has all you mentioned, our Doctrines doesn't matter to God? We are all walking in the Spirit of TRUTH?

So you're saying that you have apostles, prophets, and miracles in your church? You're saying that Jesus still operates the same in the church today?
Are you saying to say that it continues today in your church? To say that it does is "another faith"?

Please start giving me some verses where you're getting your context from.

I'm reading it as it is written.

You're sinful self is interpreting where you may or may not be wrong.

The premise is that it says all of mankind. The whole world. I receive the Word as a message from My Father. I take it as a little child. Strangely, that is how you take the oral part of this. Because as you've said before, it looks like it means everybody just looking at the scripture (for good reason).

John 14:28 "My Father is Greater than I"
This 'looks like' it means Jesus is not equal to God making him less than God as well. Funny how Scripture does that isn't it.

In the context of Romans 3, it means everybody. There's no need to point to somewhere else in a context that is not talking about what Romans 3 is.

There is a need to show you differences in the word 'All' giving doubt that it literally means every single person has sinned. The context is what you think it's saying. Not what it's really meaning.

Every human being every born of women and you would take that apart.

I throw the entire Revelation onto it to interpret. And again, I could say you 'take it apart' when you say Jesus isn't included in this.

Plus, you've got your ORAL thing, and that carries more power than the "box" that I call the Word.

Oral Tradition is the filler and likewise the WORD of God. The actual power comes from understanding the verse as it was supposed to be understood.

I'm telling you, I'm not a protestant, I'm a Christian.

You protest the Church and Her doctrines using the protestant tool of sola Scripture. You're a protestant.

I'm not looking for a title. I'm not adding to the Word either, I'm receiving it.

You receive it without error. Ever? Once you start interpreting with the guide of the Holy Spirit you've never went back and changed your first understanding of it?

Although others receive their belief about Mary for the traditions "handed down", and won't likely be dissuaded otherwise, regardless of the scripture.

No more than being dissuaded by the fact your Bible was 'handed down' through Tradition and can't be wrong.

You're actually lying and saying that I'm adding to the Word. (Do you know where liars go?) That I'm trying to be a Pope, taking honor for myself, and everything else you've hurled at me because I accept the plain truth. It's a religious spirit. It was the religious who killed Jesus. You would be wise to distance yourself from that Phariseeic persuasion.

I don't lie when I see what you're doing on here. I'm merely making a statement based on fact. You say the Holy Spirit guides you and if any Catholic contradicts your interpretation, they're wrong. That to me sounds like someone who cannot error on Biblical Truths making you think you're some type of Doctrinal leader of the Church.

Now if one were to look at this apart from the teachings from Sacred Tradition
...it will look as if we are acknowledging that there are no exceptions
That's what it looks like.

As I previously said, the Bible 'looks' like it says many things. That's the entire reason protestants debate amongst themselves. Because it 'looks' differently when compared to the other.

We know that your church doesn't believe in signs and wonders, miracles, apostles and prophets today. That ended

Where does my Church say this?

The Word says that the Holy Spirit confirms the Word with signs following
He doesn't confirm tradition.

The Bible confirms Sacred Tradition which translates to mean the Holy Spirit confirms Sacred Tradition. Which verse(s) regarding signs and wonders are you working your argument from?
There are many 'signs and wonders' in the Church. Especially regarding the Apparitions of Our Lady.

Many non Catholic churches as you would call them, do experience ALL of these things.

Talk is cheap.

God speaks today just like He did in the Book of Acts. His sheep hear His voice.

Gods' voice isn't saying to Not listen to Sacred Tradition. So you're obviously not hearing.

You say we can't get a handle on our own "doctrines" --- When we believe the Word of God like it is written.

So regarding Doctrines on divorce you're all in sync 'as it is written'. If not, then why. Who decides?

You're angry at me for daring to believe the Word as it is written -- against tradition (of which you know the Word says you make the Word of no effect because of tradition)

I'm frustrated at your seemingly ignorant state regarding the Word of God.

Very sad because Jesus is likely coming back in this generation. He's coming for the victorious church. Those who aren't ready won't be making the journey.

Agreed.

Instead of taking opposing positions, we need to do'ers of the Word and leading a lost world to Jesus (not the church).
Giving them the Word, not tradition.

I take an opposing position to your doctrines of men. Nowhere in the Early Church was it acceptable to have opposite truths regarding the Word of God and you know it. And it's not only myself who oppose you but also many of your protestant brethren somewhere on here or in the world.

 

[chilehed]

...Don't get me wrong, I'm wrong about MANY things in life, but the Word is true, and God Himself (without any Pope as a middle man) ministers truth, and is no lie...

I didn't ask if the Word is true.

We agree on the actual words of the texts in question, and I absolutely believe that what they scriptures say is true. But when you say "scripture X says [quote of scripture] which means [your conclusions of what it means based on your fallen human reasoning]", I'm not in any way bound to agree with your conclusion if the Holy Spirit leads me to understand that you are wrong. Surely you can admit that your conclusion is not inerrant holy writ. After all, the words "even Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was a sinner" never appear in the Bible; that's a conclusion that you've drawn based on your own human reasoning applied to texts that have some ambiguity of meaning... human reasoning which you've repeatedly insisted is tainted by sin (with which I agree).

What I asked was do you deny even the theoretical possibility that your conclusion could be in error in this matter? Or do you actually believe that you happen to be someone whose reasoning is untainted by sin, that your understanding of the meaning of Scripture on this point is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error?

 

[Alive_Again]

It's about Scripture being your sole rule of authority and the big gaping hole in it's logic.

Scripture is not my "sole" rule of authority. The Holy Spirit is, and He agrees with the Word. He's the one who said this soon after I was born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit. There's no "gaping hole" in the fact that it makes sense. "My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made. The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it.

People do misunderstand some passages. I don't understand some of it. I'm still learning. There are MANY things the Holy Spirit has shown that are foundational truths that our lives in the Spirit are built upon. Really, of all scripture passages to dispute over, the fact that all men are sinners, with a sin nature is the most basic. The use of the word "all" puts everyone on the same playing field. As it does many other places in the scripture, man's own efforts (by his nature) fall woefully short of the righteousness of God. Even in the New Covenant, our righteousness is entirely based on our compliance with His Word. The only way you'll manifest righteous fruit is by yielding to the Holy Spirit. If you don't your "natural" man will bear the sinful fruit that falls short that the scripture repeatedly indicates.

As I previously stated: We now have a religious system in place (which God still endeavors to work through) where it is thought that miracles, apostles, prophets, etc. are "over". This is the surest sign of deception. It is the fruits of the church that bear witness to the Father being in us.

So if I say the Catholic Church has all you mentioned, our Doctrines doesn't matter to God? We are all walking in the Spirit of TRUTH?

Doctrine does matter. That's what we're accountable to His Word. The Law of God is written on our heart and it agrees with the Word. The Word is that prophesy of scripture that we do well to take heed as a light in a dark place. It is not of any private interpretation. That means, you read it and a little child can receive it as is.

I said: So you're saying that you have apostles, prophets, and miracles in your church? You're saying that Jesus still operates the same in the church today?
Are you saying to say that it continues today in your church? To say that it does is "another faith"?

Please start giving me some verses where you're getting your context from.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Cor 12:27-28

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:12

You're sinful self is interpreting where you may or may not be wrong.

You're attempting to utilize a "theoretical approach" that because I am a man and make mistakes, that I might be wrong. It's not about me being wrong. It's about the scripture being correct. It's for instruction in righteousness. If you can explain it away into "some other meaning", then it's not a light in a dark place. Assuming it is dark. When the Holy Spirit shines the light, it's no longer a dark place. If the light of understanding is not present, it is a dark place. You're contradicting the Word and saying that I'm "interpreting" it because I take it at face value. To go one step further, the Holy Spirit confirmed this Word 25 years ago.

In the context of Romans 3, it means everybody. There's no need to point to somewhere else in a context that is not talking about what Romans 3 is.

There is a need to show you differences in the word 'All' giving doubt that it literally means every single person has sinned.

You keep imposing a "need" that isn't required. The Word is plain given the context of the chapter. It talks about everyone. Why is that a hard concept to grasp?

I said: "Every human being every born of women and you would take that apart."

Oral Tradition is the filler and likewise the WORD of God.
The actual power comes from understanding the verse as it was supposed to be understood.

That would be true, but you are imposing oral tradition on the Word to make it say what the Word does not say when it does say: "All of mankind". Is that not plain? Why does all of mankind sound like it might be ambiguous because someone else said somewhere, anywhere that "all" meant one particular group instead of all (of mankind!)?

You protest the Church and Her doctrines using the protestant tool of sola Scripture. You're a protestant.

The church is the Body of Christ not some denomination. Particularly not with man as the head. There are those in the church who belong to denominations (classifications according to doctrinal differences) such as Catholics, Baptists, or whatever. The church is the spiritual body. I do not protest it because it implies that it takes direction from the Head, Jesus.

You receive it without error. Ever? Once you start interpreting with the guide of the Holy Spirit you've never went back and changed your first understanding of it?

As I said, I make mistakes too. The Holy Spirit does not and we've covered the foundational precept that the divine nature is received. The divine nature is the only nature that is truly righteous. The righteousness required in the New Covenant. Every saint who's ever walked except Jesus had to receive it as a gift. They also walked in their sinful flesh and sinned. All saints sin from time to time.

No more than being dissuaded by the fact your Bible was 'handed down' through Tradition and can't be wrong.

God had a direct hand in the formulation of the Word. All scripture is inspired by God. God breathed. I'm telling you God Himself has confirmed it by saying "My Word". It's something you can depend on. Tradition is faulty because it can say anything it wants to negate the Word. That's the problem. Keep your tradition. When it negates the Word, it's a stronghold of the enemy. If the enemy can take part of the Word and negate it with tradition, then no part of the Word is above a more "proper interpretation" by man. The character of God ministered by He Himself is that you can trust the Word just like it is. He stands behind it. We can stand on it.

You say the Holy Spirit guides you and if any Catholic contradicts your interpretation, they're wrong.

We're talking about Romans 3 about sin. It's not my interpretation. If I take a scripture out of context and a Catholic contradicts (and they are right), then they are correct. We're not talking about some dark mystery. This is basic foundational Christianity.

That to me sounds like someone who cannot error on Biblical Truths making you think you're some type of Doctrinal leader of the Church.

I'm learning just like everyone else. I'm not a doctrinal leader either. I'm a student. I know who I've learned from too. There are some truths were "forming" an understanding on and searching for a better understanding. Other things are wonderfully plain. This is one of them!

Now if one were to look at this apart from the teachings from Sacred Tradition
...it will look as if we are acknowledging that there are no exceptions That's what it looks like.

As I previously said, the Bible 'looks' like it says many things.

That all sounds good, but back again to the original point. The whole of mankind sinned. The only reason you exclude Mary is because of your tradition. It's not in scripture. The source of your tradition is adding to the Word and in doing so, it negates it's truth (seemingly).

I said: We know that your church doesn't believe in signs and wonders, miracles, apostles and prophets today. That ended

Where does my Church say this?

I have heard this so many times from Catholic leadership that it isn't worth the effort of looking up. I'm not writing a paper. Surely you've heard this many times. I'm not talking about the miracle of childbirth either or nature, or some provision. I'm talking about creative miracles. I'm talking about a New Testament prophet. Apostles who perform signs and wonders. The position of your church is that that ended with the death of the last apostle. That is the explanation for why Jesus seemingly changed by stopping this ministry. The Book of Acts is a signs and wonders testimony. They are still happening today!

The Bible confirms Sacred Tradition which translates to mean the Holy Spirit confirms Sacred Tradition.

Are you telling me someone in your flock is preaching that Jesus paid for your healing and that you can be healed if you repent and believe?

There are many 'signs and wonders' in the Church. Especially regarding the Apparitions of Our Lady.

I've done some research on those appearances. Many words that were said contradict scripture. That's why we test all spiritual revelation of any kind against the Word.

Gods' voice isn't saying to Not listen to Sacred Tradition. So you're obviously not hearing.

Tradition is just a voice. It can say whatever it wants. If it says the Word, then it's right. If it contradicts what God has already said, it is a lie.

So regarding Doctrines on divorce you're all in sync 'as it is written'. If not, then why. Who decides?

Who's "you're all"? I'm not divorced.

The scripture says God hates divorce. If someone breaks the commandment of God and sins, you can repent and be fully restored in the sight of God.

I'm frustrated at your seemingly ignorant state regarding the Word of God.

That's interesting because again, you're adding to it by interjecting "sacred tradition" which contradicts the Word.So who is ignorant?

I take an opposing position to your doctrines of men.

That sounds great, but you forget, you're changing the plain truth of the Word, not me. If I was, I would concede that. You've already admitted once that it's the oral tradition that "explained" this one.

Nowhere in the Early Church was it acceptable to have opposite truths regarding the Word of God and you know it.

There is no opposite truth. Read it and believe it. It's that simple.

And it's not only myself who oppose you but also many of your protestant brethren somewhere on here or in the world.

It's hard to think outside of the box?

...But when you say "scripture X says [quote of scripture] which means [your conclusions of what it means based on your fallen human reasoning]"

My conclusion with "fallen human reasoning" is to receive it as it is written. That's pretty complicated?

Surely you can admit that your conclusion is not inerrant holy writ.

I'm not trying to paint some picture based on a bunch of different scriptures, although truly there are many that indicate that all men are basically sinners.
If it were some understanding I'm trying to get across that was different from ---- The Word as it is written. It's the plain truth.

After all, the words "even Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was a sinner" never appear in the Bible; that's a conclusion that you've drawn based on your own human reasoning applied to texts that have some ambiguity of meaning

How can you say it has ambiguity. Hath God said? Yes He did. BTW - You said that it was a conclusion I made based on my human reasoning. It was a conclusion YOU made. Those words don't appear in the Bible as you say.

What I asked was do you deny even the theoretical possibility that your conclusion could be in error in this matter? Or do you actually believe that you happen to be someone whose reasoning is untainted by sin, that your understanding of the meaning of Scripture on this point is guaranteed by the Holy Spirit to be without error?

Again, if we were exploring some mystery that had a vague reference like Enoch in the New Testament, I would agree that I could be wrong. The Book of Revelation says many things that are all true. Many people feel differently about them. We're talking about whether or not all sinned. It's plain. It used multiple lines of text to ensure that it was well understood. You don't accept the plain truth because you are blinded by the spirit that utilizes "traditions" that "supercede" the Word. I wish it were not true.

And yes, the Holy Spirit on MANY occasions concerning the truth of the Word made the matter very plain. When it comes to the Word, it's a well learned lesson that can't be "explained" away. It's just like tongues. It's too late to explain that away because I've already experienced it.

 

[chilehed]

How can you say it has ambiguity. Hath God said? Yes He did. BTW - You said that it was a conclusion I made based on my human reasoning. It was a conclusion YOU made. Those words don't appear in the Bible as you say.

The word ambiguous means admitting of more than one meaning. You've conceded that the word all doesn't necessarily mean every instance without exception, which means you've admitted that the text has some degree of ambiguity. The fact that it uses the word repeatedly, along with words like everyone which has the same ambiguity, doesn't mean that you can force it to your definition.

Again, if we were exploring some mystery that had a vague reference like Enoch in the New Testament, I would agree that I could be wrong....

So then that would be a yes, you claim that the Holy Spirit is giving you a charism that guarantees that you are right, and that I'm wrong even though I've turned my life over to Christ as you have.

As I said, you claim to be your own Pope. That's what it means, and you've just admitted it.

You don't accept the plain truth because you are blinded by the spirit that utilizes "traditions" that "supercede" the Word...

And yet again you dare to judge the state of my soul. I'm done here - may God have mercy on you.

 

[Alive_Again]

The word ambiguous means admitting of more than one meaning. You've conceded that the word all doesn't necessarily mean every instance without exception, which means you've admitted that the text has some degree of ambiguity.

You keep wanting to go outside of the context of Romans 3. It has no ambiguity.

The fact that it uses the word repeatedly, along with words like everyone which has the same ambiguity, doesn't mean that you can force it to your definition.

I keep thinking, "Where am I going wrong?" I'm sticking with the Word. It's not my definition. I'm innocent of making changes. You want to dilute the Word with "other possibilities" and "ambiguities". There are none.

So then that would be a yes, you claim that the Holy Spirit is giving you a charism that guarantees that you are right, and that I'm wrong even though I've turned my life over to Christ as you have.

I'm glad you have, but you're still moving away from the Word. I am not endorsed by God for anything other than when I move in His will. To speak out for truth and His character when I say you can trust His Word, is His will.

As I said, you claim to be your own Pope. That's what it means, and you've just admitted it.

Your moving away from the discussion about whether the Word is true. You've tried to imply that by my own humanity I could be wrong, but it's not my statement. It's His.

I previously said: You don't accept the plain truth because you are blinded by the spirit that utilizes "traditions" that "supercede" the Word...

And yet again you dare to judge the state of my soul. I'm done here - may God have mercy on you.

I'm sorry you take it that way. I'm judging the fruit of your words. They are plain. They are not righteous. They imply the Word isn't true. They add to by oral tradition (take away). I'm asked to consider that I might be wrong, when it's not my word I'm acknowledging. You've resorted to "protestant" rants about how they have no structure or authority. You've even pointed to my own humanity. God said that judge fruits.

I have no wish to take part in a "My church/your church" rant. That doesn't win anyone. Nor do I wish to keep insisting about God's Word over and over to someone who prefers an "oral" rendition that nullifies the Word. I truly wish this were not so. You seek to honor Mary and in doing so you move away from the truth. To say this matter of factly in your eyes means that I judge you personally, which I do not.

I can acknowledge the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit and not be some kind of "Pope". You point toward your guide and I'll point to mine. I wish you could be free of this mindset.

And yes, may God have mercy on me. I need it too. I pray God shows you how He looks at His Word compared with tradition. You'd be shocked! You can rest with total confidence on the foundation of the Word.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant. Are these not words invented by Catholics? The church is the church. Whoever receives Jesus as their Lord and Savior is the church. There are no "segments" in the spiritual church. Everyone who obeys the Holy Spirit is in equal status with God without respecter of persons.

So we have no way of knowing anything about God and how to worship Him? We'd be better off then living before Christ.

If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

They have sin because they denied and attacked Christ. If Christ had not come, they would not have sinned against Him in this regard but yet they did. If Christ had not come, there would be no such thing as Christian heresy -- as proclaiming something contrary to the Gospel, because there would be no Gospel. But because Christ did proclaim His Gospel and establish His Church, those who rebel against them have sinned. Your assertion that every religion is true because they all have a vague notion of God is false. There is only one God, therefore there can be only One True Religion.

I assert that this One True Religion is the Catholic faith, you may assert it is a particular sect of Methodism or Presbyterianism or Baptist-err..-ism but to assert that it doesn't really matter is patently false. There is truth and there is falsehood, claiming falsehood is really just an "alternative truth" is just liberal hogwash.

If you don't believe what you assert and hold to is the True Religion revealed by God, why bother asserting it? If everyone who has a vague notion of God and Jesus is saved and there is no way to know which assertions and practices are true and which are false, why spend the time to proclaim your opinions? It seems quite silly for your opening salvo to be a disclaimer that none of what you say in the rest of the thread has any real bearing on reality.

This whole discussion is whether or not Romans 3:23 infers that Mary had sinned. Whether the "ALL" meant "ALL". Whether or not it were a figure of speech or something along those lines. In other words, "Did it mean what it said?" My adherence that the Word means what it says (in context).

Also, it is patently false that everyone has committed personal sins -- a child who has not yet attained the use of reason has not yet committed a sin. If you are only referring to Original Sin, we must still conclude then that Jesus Christ Himself has been corrupted by Adam's sin.

Do you believe that Christ's human nature is corrupt? If so, then He could not be God and therefore our discussion is in vain.

If "all have sinned" means "all without exception" then we have a severe problem. "All except Jesus" is better but it is not necessarily better than "All except Jesus and Mary".

And it is not without reason that both Jesus and Mary's human natures were free from corruption. God was undoing what happened in the Garden of Eden. Jesus played the role of the New Adam and Mary played the role of the New Eve. Just as Adam and Eve were free from corruption prior to their sin, so to were Jesus and Mary.

Everyone sinned. Everyone needed a redeemer. Your catechism acknowledges that everyone needs a redeemer, but it ADDS this little exception clause as to why the sinful effects of the fall of man didn't touch Mary.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

Jesus is Mary's Savior and Redeemer. But she was Redeemed not at a later point, like all of us, but at the very moment of her conception. This does not eliminate the role of Jesus, it exalts it. A perfect Savior must save at least someone perfectly. This someone was His Mother.

The righteousness that God requires is His righteousness. It has to be received as a gift. Certain men were in right standing with God based on what He asked them to do. The kind of seeking, speaking, and doing righteousness that fellowships with God is His righteousness. No amount of goodness or well behavedness will cut it. It's filthy rags. The righteousness of men are filthy rags. Joshua pleased God, but his righteousness were as rags.

Good works done apart from Grace are indeed "filthy rags" and useless. The Catholic faith asserts this adamantly. But were the actions of Mary done apart from Grace?

And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

It doesn't sound like Mary is outside God's Grace here. In fact, she is full of grace, Grace in her abounds as it does in no other creature.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11:11

Did you skip over the "notwithstanding" part?

While it's true God can forgive sins through Jesus before He died. If God could have redeemed mankind without Jesus dying He would have.
Would you have sent your son if there were any other way?

Mary was saved by the same Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross as we were. But God is not in time, He is outside of time. It is no strange thing for God to take the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and apply it to us 2,000 years later. Neither is it a strange thing or impossible for Him to take the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and apply it to Mary 50 years earlier. The way (or "mode") in which Mary was saved was different (at conception rather than at Baptism), but it she is still saved by the Blood of the Lamb. Indeed, she is the most perfectly saved, the one who has refused no Grace offered her by God. That is why she is "blessed among women" and the highest creature in Heaven.

 

[Alive_Again]

Pilgrim to Christ said:

So we have no way of knowing anything about God and how to worship Him? We'd be better off then living before Christ.

We do know. We have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. They both agree. It is the standard by which we compare all "subsequent" revelation.

Your assertion that every religion is true because they all have a vague notion of God is false. There is only one God, therefore there can be only One True Religion.

Not at all. Religion is a way of life. I'm talking about Christianity. The Spirit and the Word are our very life in Christ. Throughout time there have been groups that have believed various things based on their take of the Word. The Holy Spirit doesn't have a "take" on the Word. He and the Word are one. So it is in this place that true Christianity and true "religion" in its purest form meet. Our way of life should mirror the truth in the Word, by the Holy Spirit.

Every other way devised by men is known as "religion". Much of those ways are influenced by deceiving spirits who preach "doctrines of demons". All the more reason to test every word or revelation by the Word.

I assert that this One True Religion is the Catholic faith, you may assert it is a particular sect of Methodism or Presbyterianism or Baptist-err..-ism but to assert that it doesn't really matter is patently false. There is truth and there is falsehood, claiming falsehood is really just an "alternative truth" is just liberal hogwash.

I would assert that it is none of these, except those who follow the Spirit and the Word in the Kingdom of God. It certainly takes place (to some degree) within these denominations, but none are them are exclusive. In fact there is great deception in pretty much each one. It's about relationship with God Himself and not religion. Religion is concerned about outward observances and that go beyond the Word. The Kingdom of God is on the inside: righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

If you don't believe what you assert and hold to is the True Religion revealed by God, why bother asserting it? If everyone who has a vague notion of God and Jesus is saved and there is no way to know which assertions and practices are true and which are false, why spend the time to proclaim your opinions? It seems quite silly for your opening salvo to be a disclaimer that none of what you say in the rest of the thread has any real bearing on reality.

That's why we hold fast to the Word of God. That is what the Holy Spirit endeavors for each of the children of God. It is accomplished in "the Spirit". You can know how well you're following the Word by the Spirit according to the fruits that you bear, or that your services bear. The Holy Spirit is manifesting in the same way as in the Book of Acts. It varies somewhat in actual practice because we don't have the "momentum" the early church had with Jesus' ministry and the 12 apostles of the Lamb. The forces of unbelief and "religion" put those things in the past tense in order to account for the lack of the move of God. It is supposed to be real, just like it was in the day. If there is little or no move of God's Spirit in your services, then it's because He does not agree with what goes on. Jesus wants to be Lord. The programs of man are not the narrow way of the Lord. So rather than point the finger at your services (which I have not attended), judge for yourself. Did the Spirit of God manifest outwardly in your service this week? Did the presence of the Lord move tangibly and people got set free and filled with the Spirit? If not, then He wants all churches to align themselves with His move.

It varies in all churches. He blesses them as far as He can. Sometimes you get a little move. Sometimes you get a big move. As He has said repeatedly, line up with the Word in your heart. It will be as the Word in the Bible. I really don't want to be guilt of a critical spirit. I do acknowledge the present day working of the Holy Spirit and the ordinances of God contained in the Word. It is the foundation of my walk in Christ.

As I mentioned much earlier, the Spirit said that their was coming a day where He would divide those who will obey His Spirit from those who would obey from the flesh and unite His spiritual church (from all Christian "faiths"). Many will be offended, yet many will rejoice because what they have waited for, will demonstrably appear. It will be like in Jesus' day. The "religious" Jews were offended that Jesus seemingly violated their laws. He fulfilled the Spirit of those laws. Healings were done, but they were concerned because He seemingly "violated the sabbath". Religion and the Spirit are dynamically opposed. The church of the flesh persecutes the church of the Spirit then, as it is to this day. The church of the flesh would even deny its existence.

Also, it is patently false that everyone has committed personal sins -- a child who has not yet attained the use of reason has not yet committed a sin. If you are only referring to Original Sin, we must still conclude then that Jesus Christ Himself has been corrupted by Adam's sin.

The sin nature from the beginning from Adam and Eve by disobeying God (according to the old testament) is passed on through the blood line of the Father. The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons and daughters. Jesus was Fathered by the Holy Spirit, so He was the only exception.

Do you believe that Christ's human nature is corrupt? If so, then He could not be God and therefore our discussion is in vain.

Of course not. As previously stated...

"No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"
Romans 3:9

Mary was a Jew and was under sin. It did not require a sinless mother for Jesus to be born. Only that He had a sinless Father.

And it is not without reason that both Jesus and Mary's human natures were free from corruption. God was undoing what happened in the Garden of Eden. Jesus played the role of the New Adam and Mary played the role of the New Eve. Just as Adam and Eve were free from corruption prior to their sin, so to were Jesus and Mary.

If that were true then Jesus and Mary were mates. That is not doubt why that cannot be true. Jesus was the "last Adam". To say that Mary was free from corruption is to add to the Word because the Word does not say this at all.

It doesn't sound like Mary is outside God's Grace here. In fact, she is full of grace, Grace in her abounds as it does in no other creature.

The grace of God is with all men. The unmerited favor of God is the reason why we live and the sun shines on the just and the unjust. You're adding to the Word by saying "as it does in no other creature". You have to stop deception at the source.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11:11

Did you skip over the "notwithstanding" part?

Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: although/without impediment by other things he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11:11

Notwithstanding/without impediment by other things

How does that change the meaning?

Neither is it a strange thing or impossible for Him to take the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and apply it to Mary 50 years earlier. The way (or "mode") in which Mary was saved was different (at conception rather than at Baptism), but it she is still saved by the Blood of the Lamb. Indeed, she is the most perfectly saved, the one who has refused no Grace offered her by God.

Joseph and Mary did all of the "righteous" requirments of the Law and their was no New Covenant salvation for her as far as a nature change goes until after He ascended to the Father.

That is why she is "blessed among women" and the highest creature in Heaven.

That is a cunningly devised fable. There is no scriptural basis for th is.

We are warned in scripture not to accept just any doctrine. It has to agree with existing doctrine. Mary was a sinner saved by grace, and transformed into the righteousness of God just as we are.

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
Eph 4:14

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:16-21

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23


The reason why we must reject that doctrine is that it negates Romans 3:23 which is impossible. If you can negate any point in the Word, you can change any of it to suit your needs, or the needs of "religion".

I don't mean to be offensive, but the Holy Spirit has instructed the church to reject doctrine that exalts itself above the Word (which it clearly does).

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Tim 4:3-4

 

[Kepha]

Scripture is not my "sole" rule of authority. The Holy Spirit is, and He agrees with the Word.

Scripture is your sole visible rule of Authority.

There's no "gaping hole" in the fact that it makes sense.

There's a definite gaping hole in something where future Christians (who can be wrong when they interpret) are supposed to 'know' what God intended it to be then preach this possible error unto all Christians. Of course you will say that 'everyone' has to 'obey' the Holy Spirit which again, you all think yet causes nothing but confusion and splintering in the whole of protestant community. Once you can realize this, then there'll be hope for you. Until then, you'll be forever misleading yourself into error.

"My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made.

The Word of God in EVERY instance from the Bible is not talking about the Written Word only. If so prove it or renounce what you just said. You're wrongly interpreting again and helping me in the process to disprove the Holy Ghost leading you in this and possibly many more instances thereby losing any credibility to preach or interpret with authority.

The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it.

Now I just need you to say "I declare, pronounce and define" to perfect that statement.

People do misunderstand some passages. I don't understand some of it. I'm still learning.

Which tells me it's possible for you to error on Doctrinal Truths concerning the Revelation for all men.

Even in the New Covenant, our righteousness is entirely based on our compliance with His Word.

Correct. But that doesn't make one a sinner unless he/she doesn't obey the Word of God. Mother Mary ALWAYS Obeyed our Lord.

As I previously stated: We now have a religious system in place (which God still endeavors to work through) where it is thought that miracles, apostles, prophets, etc. are "over".

Do not compare yourself to the Apostles and the Miracles they performed in God's name. And do not compare yourself to infallible men unless you wish to make yourself one.

This is the surest sign of deception. It is the fruits of the church that bear witness to the Father being in us.

My Church has these fruits. Now what. This means that our Doctrines are correct as well? If not, you're telling me that you can have the fruits of the Church yet be wrong in Doctrinal matters? Show me where this was acceptable in the early Church.

That's what we're accountable to His Word. The Law of God is written on our heart and it agrees with the Word. The Word is that prophesy of scripture that we do well to take heed as a light in a dark place. It is not of any private interpretation. That means, you read it and a little child can receive it as is.

One can't be accountable to something they can distort and not realize they're distorting.

I said: So you're saying that you have apostles, prophets, and miracles in your church? You're saying that Jesus still operates the same in the church today?

There are no more Apostles after the death of the last one. We do have prophecy and miracles.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Cor 12:27-28

How about this one right starting with verse 25. Sounds like God discourages doctrinal disagreements. So His set up according to you, is a feeble one.

But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, [25] That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

You're attempting to utilize a "theoretical approach" that because I am a man and make mistakes, that I might be wrong. It's not about me being wrong. It's about the scripture being correct.

It's about the Scriptures being understood enough to be correct through proper interpretation which if one is wrong about, makes all the difference in the world. You deceive yourself to suggest otherwise.

You keep imposing a "need" that isn't required. The Word is plain given the context of the chapter. It talks about everyone. Why is that a hard concept to grasp?

The context is used within the context of the 'ENTIRE' canon of Scripture as much as you wish it weren't with this particular verse.

That would be true, but you are imposing oral tradition on the Word to make it say what the Word does not say when it does say: "All of mankind".

I'm imposing the Oral Word of God to shed more light on it and give it, it's proper context.

The church is the Body of Christ not some denomination. Particularly not with man as the head.

The Church is One in Faith and Doctrines. Yours is not. And a man isn't in charge of my Church. Only Christ is the head and only the Holy Spirit guides Her.

There are those in the church who belong to denominations (classifications according to doctrinal differences) such as Catholics, Baptists, or whatever. The church is the spiritual body. I do not protest it because it implies that it takes direction from the Head, Jesus.

How can a body with disagreements on what Christ wants take directions from Him? Just adds to the confusion. And again, show me in Scripture where the early Church accepted disagreements on Doctrinal matters.

God had a direct hand in the formulation of the Word. All scripture is inspired by God. God breathed. I'm telling you God Himself has confirmed it by saying "My Word".

He's never said "My written Word Only". That's your faulty interpretation.

It's something you can depend on.

You can't depend on something that your sinful self can misinterpret. I'll keep saying and because you seem too brainwashed to even let it sink in, I'll give it one more try.

Tradition is faulty because it can say anything it wants to negate the Word.

lol, you mean it's faulty when it disagrees with your fallible interpretation of God's Written Word.

That's the problem. Keep your tradition.

Gladly.

We're talking about Romans 3 about sin. It's not my interpretation. If I take a scripture out of context and a Catholic contradicts (and they are right), then they are correct. We're not talking about some dark mystery. This is basic foundational Christianity.

The basic foundation of Christianity is Christ had to die for EVERYBODY including Mary. How God wishes to apply these Graces so She may never sin us up to Him. Not you and not myself.

Now if one were to look at this apart from the teachings from Sacred Tradition
...it will look as if we are acknowledging that there are no exceptions That's what it looks like.

Jesus: "The Father is Greater than I"

Looks like something other than what we believe.

That all sounds good, but back again to the original point. The whole of mankind sinned. The only reason you exclude Mary is because of your tradition. It's not in scripture.

It's both.

The source of your tradition is adding to the Word and in doing so, it negates it's truth (seemingly).

The source of your Bible alone theory (protestant movement) is adding to the Word of God.

I said: We know that your church doesn't believe in signs and wonders, miracles, apostles and prophets today. That ended

Fatima, Lourdes, Fr Padre Pio, profound miracles in Saints names. No, I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't believe it's ended.

I have heard this so many times from Catholic leadership that it isn't worth the effort of looking up. I'm not writing a paper. Surely you've heard this many times. I'm not talking about the miracle of childbirth either or nature, or some provision. I'm talking about creative miracles. I'm talking about a New Testament prophet. Apostles who perform signs and wonders. The position of your church is that that ended with the death of the last apostle. That is the explanation for why Jesus seemingly changed by stopping this ministry. The Book of Acts is a signs and wonders testimony. They are still happening today!

So your miracles are so astonishing, even the doctors are amazed? Do you have some personal documented cases I can check out to know you're not a hoaxer? You've alot of phonies among your protestant brethren. Even my non denom friend left his church to go to another because everyone kept going up for healings but nobody were ever healed but they were sure to loudly speak in tongues.

Are you telling me someone in your flock is preaching that Jesus paid for your healing and that you can be healed if you repent and believe?

That someone is the Magisterium. The same someone who gave us our Bibles as the Holy Spirit works through Her.

I've done some research on those appearances. Many words that were said contradict scripture. That's why we test all spiritual revelation of any kind against the Word.

Actually, we test these Apparitions to see if they are in line with Catholic teachings and not your teachings. If Satan can perform these, then he can do the same in your church, making your testimony less credible.

Tradition is just a voice. It can say whatever it wants. If it says the Word, then it's right. If it contradicts what God has already said, it is a lie.

Traditions of man is a foolish voice. Traditions of the Apostles are not.

The scripture says God hates divorce. If someone breaks the commandment of God and sins, you can repent and be fully restored in the sight of God.

So you can divorce, repent, God forgives and you can remarry someone else? I can find another protestant who says Divorce is 'Always' wrong even in adulterous cases. Who's right and who's wrong? How do you decide?

It's hard to think outside of the box?

I know it is for you. That's why I'm asking you to open up your mind and heart to the fullness of the Truth.

My conclusion with "fallen human reasoning" is to receive it as it is written. That's pretty complicated?

Your sinful self denies other parts of Scripture thereby neglecting that verse, it's precise meaning.

How can you say it has ambiguity. Hath God said? Yes He did. BTW - You said that it was a conclusion I made based on my human reasoning. It was a conclusion YOU made. Those words don't appear in the Bible as you say.

I can spot your error giving me reason to conclude you did so because of your fallen sinful nature.

Again, if we were exploring some mystery that had a vague reference like Enoch in the New Testament, I would agree that I could be wrong. The Book of Revelation says many things that are all true. Many people feel differently about them. We're talking about whether or not all sinned. It's plain. It used multiple lines of text to ensure that it was well understood.You don't accept the plain truth because you are blinded by the spirit that utilizes "traditions" that "supercede" the Word. I wish it were not true.

You explore it out of context with the Entire Word (Oral and Written) of God so no, it's not as simple as you make it unfortunately for you.

And yes, the Holy Spirit on MANY occasions concerning the truth of the Word made the matter very plain. When it comes to the Word, it's a well learned lesson that can't be "explained" away. It's just like tongues. It's too late to explain that away because I've already experienced it

It's a hit and miss with you to be honest. Cause deep down, you could be wrong about any of it. My certainty is confined to the certainty of a visible Church that cannot error concerning Faith and Morals.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Pilgrim to Christ said:

We do know. We have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. They both agree. It is the standard by which we compare all "subsequent" revelation.

Not at all. Religion is a way of life. I'm talking about Christianity. The Spirit and the Word are our very life in Christ. Throughout time there have been groups that have believed various things based on their take of the Word. The Holy Spirit doesn't have a "take" on the Word. He and the Word are one. So it is in this place that true Christianity and true "religion" in its purest form meet. Our way of life should mirror the truth in the Word, by the Holy Spirit.

Every other way devised by men is known as "religion". Much of those ways are influenced by deceiving spirits who preach "doctrines of demons". All the more reason to test every word or revelation by the Word.

I would assert that it is none of these, except those who follow the Spirit and the Word in the Kingdom of God. It certainly takes place (to some degree) within these denominations, but none are them are exclusive. In fact there is great deception in pretty much each one. It's about relationship with God Himself and not religion. Religion is concerned about outward observances and that go beyond the Word. The Kingdom of God is on the inside: righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

That's why we hold fast to the Word of God. That is what the Holy Spirit endeavors for each of the children of God. It is accomplished in "the Spirit". You can know how well you're following the Word by the Spirit according to the fruits that you bear, or that your services bear. The Holy Spirit is manifesting in the same way as in the Book of Acts. It varies somewhat in actual practice because we don't have the "momentum" the early church had with Jesus' ministry and the 12 apostles of the Lamb. The forces of unbelief and "religion" put those things in the past tense in order to account for the lack of the move of God. It is supposed to be real, just like it was in the day. If there is little or no move of God's Spirit in your services, then it's because He does not agree with what goes on. Jesus wants to be Lord. The programs of man are not the narrow way of the Lord. So rather than point the finger at your services (which I have not attended), judge for yourself. Did the Spirit of God manifest outwardly in your service this week? Did the presence of the Lord move tangibly and people got set free and filled with the Spirit? If not, then He wants all churches to align themselves with His move.

It varies in all churches. He blesses them as far as He can. Sometimes you get a little move. Sometimes you get a big move. As He has said repeatedly, line up with the Word in your heart. It will be as the Word in the Bible. I really don't want to be guilt of a critical spirit. I do acknowledge the present day working of the Holy Spirit and the ordinances of God contained in the Word. It is the foundation of my walk in Christ.

As I mentioned much earlier, the Spirit said that their was coming a day where He would divide those who will obey His Spirit from those who would obey from the flesh and unite His spiritual church (from all Christian "faiths"). Many will be offended, yet many will rejoice because what they have waited for, will demonstrably appear. It will be like in Jesus' day. The "religious" Jews were offended that Jesus seemingly violated their laws. He fulfilled the Spirit of those laws. Healings were done, but they were concerned because He seemingly "violated the sabbath". Religion and the Spirit are dynamically opposed. The church of the flesh persecutes the church of the Spirit then, as it is to this day. The church of the flesh would even deny its existence.

The sin nature from the beginning from Adam and Eve by disobeying God (according to the old testament) is passed on through the blood line of the Father. The sins of the fathers are visited on the sons and daughters. Jesus was Fathered by the Holy Spirit, so He was the only exception.

Of course not. As previously stated...

"No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"
Romans 3:9

Mary was a Jew and was under sin. It did not require a sinless mother for Jesus to be born. Only that He had a sinless Father.

If that were true then Jesus and Mary were mates. That is not doubt why that cannot be true. Jesus was the "last Adam". To say that Mary was free from corruption is to add to the Word because the Word does not say this at all.

The grace of God is with all men. The unmerited favor of God is the reason why we live and the sun shines on the just and the unjust. You're adding to the Word by saying "as it does in no other creature". You have to stop deception at the source.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11:11

Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: although/without impediment by other things he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matt 11:11

Notwithstanding/without impediment by other things

How does that change the meaning?

Joseph and Mary did all of the "righteous" requirments of the Law and their was no New Covenant salvation for her as far as a nature change goes until after He ascended to the Father.

That is a cunningly devised fable. There is no scriptural basis for th is.

We are warned in scripture not to accept just any doctrine. It has to agree with existing doctrine. Mary was a sinner saved by grace, and transformed into the righteousness of God just as we are.

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
Eph 4:14

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
2 Peter 1:16-21

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23


The reason why we must reject that doctrine is that it negates Romans 3:23 which is impossible. If you can negate any point in the Word, you can change any of it to suit your needs, or the needs of "religion".

I don't mean to be offensive, but the Holy Spirit has instructed the church to reject doctrine that exalts itself above the Word (which it clearly does).

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Tim 4:3-4

Wow. You wrote a lot of nothing with some "Jesus" and "Holy Spirit" and "Scripture" thrown in there for good measure.

 

[laconicstudent]

Kepha, how on Earth do you manage to respond to all that?

 

[Alive_Again]

Before I address your last comments, I wanted to remind you of some good news... Your inheritance from the covenant of God!

…Whom shall he teach knowledge? Isaiah 28
…And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28
…them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts Isaiah 28

…Among them that are born of women Matt 11
…there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist Matt 11
…notwithstanding he that is least in the Kingdom of Heaven Matt 11
…is greater than he Matt 11
…But this shall be the covenant that I will make Jer 31
…with the house of Israel Jer 31
…I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts Jer 31
…and will be their God, and they shall be My people Jer 31
…And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour Jer 31
…and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord Jer 31
…for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them Jer 31
…For as many as are led by the Spirit of God Romans 8
…they are the sons of God. Romans 8
…And they shall be all taught of God John 6
…Every man therefore that hath heard John 6
…and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me John 6
…All things are delivered to Me of My Father Luke 10
…and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father Luke 10
…and who the Father is, but the Son Luke 10
…and he to whom the Son will reveal Him Luke 10
…And we know that the Son of God is come 1 John 5
…and hath given us an understanding that we may know Him that is true 1 John 5
…Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss Phil 3
…for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord Phil 3
…That I may know him and the power of His resurrection Phil 3
…But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard 1 Cor 2
…neither have entered into the heart of man 1 Cor 2
…the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him 1 Cor 2
…But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit 1 Cor 2
…for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Cor 2
…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
…but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
…that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
…Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
…He will guide you into all truth John 16
…for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
…but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
…He will shew you things to come John 16
…He shall glorify Me John 16
…for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
…All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
…therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
…Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona Matt 16
…for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee Matt 16
…but My Father which is in Heaven Matt 16
…upon this rock I will build my church Matt 16
…and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Matt 16
…Whosoever cometh to Me Luke 6
…and heareth My sayings, and doeth them Luke 6
…I will shew you to whom he is like Luke 6
…He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep Luke 6
…and laid the foundation on a rock Luke 6
…and when the flood arose Luke 6
…the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it Luke 6
…for it was founded upon a rock Luke 6


...I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh Acts 2
...and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy Acts 2
...and your young men shall see visions Acts 2
...and your old men shall dream dreams Acts 2
...And on My servants and on My handmaidens Acts 2
...I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy Acts 2

...And thine ears shall hear a Word behind thee Isaiah 30
...saying, This is the way, walk ye in it Isaiah 30
...when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left Isaiah 30

...The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way Prov 14
...Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established Prov 16
...I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them Isaiah 61

...What man is he that feareth the Lord? Psalms 25
...Him shall He teach in the way that He shall choose Psalms 25
...The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him Psalms 25
...and He will shew them His covenant Psalms 25
...Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent Luke 10
...and hast revealed them unto babes Luke 10
...I have called you friends John 15
...for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you John 15
...The Son can do nothing of Himself John 5
...but what he seeth the Father do John 5
...for what things soever He doeth John 5
...these also doeth the Son likewise John 5
...For the Father loveth the Son John 5
...and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth John 5
...as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just John 5
...because I seek not Mine own will John 5
...but the will of the Father which hath sent Me John 5
...For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed Luke 12
...neither hid, that shall not be known Luke 12
...Have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? Mark 8
...And having ears, hear ye not? And do ye not remember? Mark 8

...Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt 13
...but to them it is not given Matt 13
...For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance Matt 13

...But blessed are your eyes, for they see Matt 13
...and your ears, for they hear Matt 13
...many prophets and righteous men have desired to see Matt 13
...those things which ye see, and have not seen them Matt 13
...and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them Matt 13
…How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? John 7
…My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent Me John 7
…If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine John 7
…whether it be of God, or whether I speak of Myself John 7
…they were astonished at His doctrine: for His Word was with power Luke 4

…That in every thing ye are enriched by Him 1 Cor 1
…in all utterance, and in all knowledge 1 Cor 1
…The eyes of the Lord preserve knowledge Prov 22
…My son, attend unto My wisdom Prov 5
…and bow thine ear to My understanding Prov 5
…That thou mayest regard discretion Prov 5
…and that thy lips may keep knowledge Prov 5
…Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good Prov 19
…The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge Prov 15
…but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth Prov 16
…the prudent are crowned with knowledge Prov 14
…And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times Isaiah 33
…The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge Isaiah 32
…The lips of the wise disperse knowledge Prov 15
…Casting down imaginations, and every high thing 2 Cor 10
…that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God 2 Cor 10
…Have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge Prov 22
…Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge Prov 12
…Hear counsel, and receive instruction Prov 19
…that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end Prov 19
…Wisdom crieth without Prov 1
…Turn you at My reproof Prov 1
…behold, I will pour out My Spirit unto you Prov 1
…I will make known My Words unto you Prov 1
…The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge Prov 1
…For God giveth to a man that is good in His sight Eccl 2
…wisdom, and knowledge, and joy Eccl 2
…If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God James 1
…that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not James 1
…and it shall be given him James 1
…But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering James 1

…Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God Luke 18
…as a little child shall in no wise enter therein Luke 18

…Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find Matt 7
…knock, and it shall be opened unto you Matt 7
…For every one that asketh receiveth Matt 7
…and he that seeketh findeth Matt 7
…and to him that knocketh it shall be opened Matt 7
…With the ancient is wisdom Job 12
…and in length of days understanding Job 12
…With Him is wisdom and strength Job 12
…He hath counsel and understanding Job 12
…Yea, if thou criest after knowledge Prov 2
…and liftest up thy voice for understanding Prov 2
…If thou seekest her as silver Prov 2
…and searchest for her as for hid treasures Prov 2
…Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord Prov 2
…and find the knowledge of God Prov 2
…For the Lord giveth wisdom Prov 2
…out of His mouth cometh knowledge and understanding Prov 2
…He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous Prov 2
…He keepeth the paths of judgment Prov 2
…and preserveth the way of His saints Prov 2

…When wisdom entereth into thine heart Prov 2
…and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul Prov 2
…understanding shall keep thee Prov 2
…but the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel Prov 20
…And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled Prov 24
…yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength Prov 24
…So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul Prov 24
…when thou hast found it then there shall be a reward Prov 24
…and thy expectation shall not be cut off Prov 24
…Wisdom is good with an inheritance Eccl 7
…but the excellency of knowledge is Eccl 7
…that wisdom giveth life to them that have it Eccl 7
…To know wisdom and instruction Prov 1
…to perceive the words of understanding Prov 1
…To receive the instruction of wisdom Prov 1
…A wise man will hear, and will increase learning Prov 1
…and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels Prov 1
…Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom Prov 8
…I am understanding; I have strength Prov 8
…By me kings reign, and princes decree justice Prov 8
…I love them that love me Prov 8
…and those that seek me early shall find me Prov 8
…That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of glory Eph 1
…may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him Eph 1
…The eyes of your understanding being enlightened Eph 1
…But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus 1 Cor 1
…who of God is made unto us wisdom 1 Cor 1
…Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister Prov 7
…and call understanding thy kinswoman Prov 7
…Get wisdom, get understanding Prov 4
…forget it not; neither decline from the words of my mouth Prov 4
…Wisdom is the principal thing Prov 4
…therefore get wisdom Prov 4
…and with all thy getting get understanding Prov 4
…The wise shall inherit glory Prov 3
…for blessed are they that keep My ways Prov 8
…Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not Prov 8
…lessed is the man that heareth Me Prov 8
…watching daily at My gates Prov 8
…waiting at the posts of My doors Prov 8
…For whoso findeth me findeth life Prov 8
…and shall obtain favour of the Lord Prov 8
…And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times Isaiah 33
…He giveth wisdom unto the wise Dan 2
…and knowledge to them that know understanding Dan 2
…He revealeth the deep and secret things Dan 2
…he knoweth what is in the darkness Dan 2
…and the light dwelleth with him Dan 2
…Buy the truth, and sell it not Prov 23
…also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding Prov 23
…Brethren, be not children in understanding 1 Cor 14
…but in understanding be men 1 Cor 14
…When I was a child, I spake as a child 1 Cor 13
…I understood as a child, I thought as a child 1 Cor 13
…but when I became a man, I put away childish things 1 Cor 13
…Open Thou mine eyes Psalms 119
…that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy Law Psalms 119
…but they that seek the Lord understand all things Prov 28
…They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding Isaiah 29
…and they that murmured shall learn doctrine Isaiah 29
…Then opened He their understanding Luke 24
…that they might understand the scriptures Luke 24
…Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? Hosea 14
…For the ways of the Lord are right Hosea 14
…and the just shall walk in them Hosea 14
...by a man of understanding and knowledge Prov 28
...the state thereof shall be prolonged Prov 28
...I have more understanding than all my teachers Psalms 119
...for Thy testimonies are my meditation Psalms 119
...But unto them which are called 1 Cor 1
...Christ the power of God 1 Cor 1
...and the wisdom of God 1 Cor 1

 

[Alive_Again]

Scripture is your sole visible rule of Authority.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I can rejoice that God is true to His Word.

There's a definite gaping hole in something where future Christians (who can be wrong when they interpret) are supposed to 'know' what God intended it to be then preach this possible error unto all Christians. Of course you will say that 'everyone' has to 'obey' the Holy Spirit which again, you all think yet causes nothing but confusion and splintering in the whole of protestant community. Once you can realize this, then there'll be hope for you. Until then, you'll be forever misleading yourself into error.

Although people can make the Word say what they want, typically you just read it and even a child understands it. God said He'd give understanding.

I had said: "My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made.

The Word of God in EVERY instance from the Bible is not talking about the Written Word only. If so prove it or renounce what you just said. You're wrongly interpreting again and helping me in the process to disprove the Holy Ghost leading you in this and possibly many more instances thereby losing any credibility to preach or interpret with authority.

I'm not talking about the written Word. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit or Jesus speaking. I can't count the number of times He's said "My Word" when referring to the Bible. He's the one who fostered the belief that He stands behind it.

I had said: "The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it."

Now I just need you to say "I declare, pronounce and define" to perfect that statement.

I don't have any idea what this means. I assume you're scoffing one of my most favorite experiences of my entire life. It took me completely by surprise. It reminds me that God listens to everything we say or type. Even now, right before the throne of God, He sees every letter and space, every thought and intent of the heart associated with what we say. We should be infinitely more reverential to His covenant and the things He has said.

Which tells me it's possible for you to error on Doctrinal Truths concerning the Revelation for all men.

Of course! Some understandings are "formed". We draw understanding out of our spirit as from deep water. Many things are plain. He has spoken much on the subject of His Word and the sin and the flesh nature issue.

Mother Mary ALWAYS Obeyed our Lord.

Give me the book and verse. Apart from that you're saying Romans 3:23 isn't true and that's not possible. Not only do I understand preceptually why men or women from any time cannot live in the righteousness of God as the New Covenant prescribes. It is only received. It was not available until post-resurrection and even then, according to John, we all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a liar. That went for Mary too, and they lived together for a while.

Do not compare yourself to the Apostles and the Miracles they performed in God's name. And do not compare yourself to infallible men unless you wish to make yourself one.

There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception).

My Church has these fruits. Now what. This means that our Doctrines are correct as well? If not, you're telling me that you can have the fruits of the Church yet be wrong in Doctrinal matters? Show me where this was acceptable in the early Church.

That would be nice. Your words don't line up with the Word though. You feel I have to be some Pope in order to receive clear instruction from God. That's why I sent you the good news about how New Covenant believers can hear from God direct. It's part of your inheritance. When you're young, you don't receive your full inheritance. As you mature, you hear the Lord more clearly. He has said that He wants ALL of His people to hear His voice all of the time and receive instant answers to problems you encounter every day without waiting. I'm not there yet either, but I'm pressing in. I know that I have heard.

One can't be accountable to something they can distort and not realize they're distorting.

Really. I'm only saying the Word is true as it is written. Think about this for a minute.

There are no more Apostles after the death of the last one. We do have prophecy and miracles.

Not only are there many apostles, the Catholic Church has them in charimatic circles(!) I was raised by one. You don't know who they are because God instructs His people with wisdom inside "religious" institutions. You have prophets too. I have known a number of Catholic prophets.

How about this one right starting with verse 25. Sounds like God discourages doctrinal disagreements. So His set up according to you, is a feeble one.

You can fellowship in your circles and feel that you are "right". If you grieve the Holy Spirit, God does not like that, to be sure.

It's about the Scriptures being understood enough to be correct through proper interpretation which if one is wrong about, makes all the difference in the world. You deceive yourself to suggest otherwise.

Sound check! I'm not changing, adding or diminishing the Word. You are!

The Church is One in Faith and Doctrines. Yours is not. And a man isn't in charge of my Church. Only Christ is the head and only the Holy Spirit guides Her.

I say humbly and thankfully, that my church is a Spirit led church of signs and wonders. Jesus is Lord. The fruits are good. People aren't just attending church, they're dedicating their lives to the Lord in radical ways. Souls are being saved.

How can a body with disagreements on what Christ wants take directions from Him? Just adds to the confusion. And again, show me in Scripture where the early Church accepted disagreements on Doctrinal matters.

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 Cor 11:18-19

It wasn't really accepted. But odd doctrines were introduced. If you added to the Word in the first century, contradicting Paul, I'm sure you would have been rebuked. Now denominations provide homes for believers who espouse a "take" on the Word that isn't in agreement with the Holy Spirit. Always just the fruits.

I had said: God had a direct hand in the formulation of the Word. All scripture is inspired by God. God breathed. I'm telling you God Himself has confirmed it by saying "My Word".

He's never said "My written Word Only". That's your faulty interpretation.

I'm telling you He's spoken it to me and born witness to its every mention many, many times by His Spirit.

You can't depend on something that your sinful self can misinterpret. I'll keep saying and because you seem too brainwashed to even let it sink in, I'll give it one more try.

I'm telling you, your fruits are filthy. They are the fruits of an unbeliever. I'm not saying that you're not a Christian, but the things you say in opposition to what God is doing reaks!

lol, you mean it's faulty when it disagrees with your fallible interpretation of God's Written Word.

I hope that with my earlier post, you'll meditate on the Word in the promises I pasted and realize that God really does speak to His people. He really does give wisdom and revelation. You needn't depend on your authorities. Of course, if your authorities are hearing from God, you'll be in agreement with the Head. Everything will run in perfect order. (Of course the nature of man is to make mistakes. So sometimes we have mixture.) Always judge the fruits for agreement with God.

I miss it every day. The scriptures, I really hope they minister to you and don't receive them as some kind of come back. They're intended to bless you and remind you that God is working today to minister the Lordship of Jesus in a direct way. He's doing it in Catholic circles as well as what you call "Protestant". God's got a family in covenant with Him. He wants them to line up with the Word. Only He can cause them to walk in it. Everything else are man's programs.

The source of your Bible alone theory (protestant movement) is adding to the Word of God.

Am I not correct to say that you are blind? You keep saying "Bible alone". I'm telling you the Spirit of God illuminates the Word. The Good Shepherd speaks to His people. I'm not adding to it, I'm receiving it. You're adding some "baggage" of your perceptions of how some "Protestant" fellowships apparently behave. It's family. It's not Catholic/Protestant.

Fatima, Lourdes, Fr Padre Pio, profound miracles in Saints names. No, I'm pretty sure the Church doesn't believe it's ended.

You'd be shocked to know that what the spirit that appeared in those places has said is against the Word of God.

So your miracles are so astonishing, even the doctors are amazed?

I wouldn't cast any more pearls for you to scoff at. They're not "my miracles" either.

everyone kept going up for healings but nobody were ever healed but they were sure to loudly speak in tongues.

You've got to believe God first. You have to learn to receive from God. To do that, you've got to hear from God. If you try to receive from God on personal faith, you have to wait for it to manifest (might be weeks), depending on you. If you mix your faith with the healing anointing, it might be hours, or days. If it's a miracle, it will be right away. If you're in the glory cloud, it's usually a miracle. Gold teeth, creative miracles, etc.

Actually, we test these Apparitions to see if they are in line with Catholic teachings and not your teachings. If Satan can perform these, then he can do the same in your church, making your testimony less credible.

No, you always test things against the Word of God. You also rely on the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. He'll NEVER lead you wrong. Also, spiritual oppression caused by demonic lying spirits of light always bear fruit of bondage. That's why they often appear to people who are already crazy or children.

So you can divorce, repent, God forgives and you can remarry someone else?

It's not for me to judge. God's the judge. We don't withhold communion from any believers either.

Your sinful self denies other parts of Scripture thereby neglecting that verse, it's precise meaning.

And which verse are you claiming give it precise meaning?

It's a hit and miss with you to be honest. Cause deep down, you could be wrong about any of it. My certainty is confined to the certainty of a visible Church that cannot error concerning Faith and Morals.

The Holy Spirit is the best teacher there ever was. I have more faith in Him than I have in your carnal disputations. You attribute error to the teachings of God as though we cannot receive them as they are written. Sure, the Word in its entirety is received. Each scripture lives comfortably with others.

Your fruits are as a scoffer who is incapable of hearing, lest you be healed. If you repented of your position and meditated on the scriptures that I provided, God could minister hope and faith that you can receive truth from Him that is no lie. It doesn't matter what contrary winds come against you. You'll be on the solid rock of revelation. The devil cannot prevail.

 

[BiblebelievingChristian]

Let's let Mary speak for herself shall we?

What was that first line, Mary?

“My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

Why would you need a Savior if you were without sin as some would suggest?

"Good question."

What exactly has God done for you - did you say something about showing you mercy?

"for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him"

So God showed you mercy and you need a Savior. It doesn't sound like you were sinless during your life on earth to me.

"Good point."

God can save someone from ever falling into sin which would still make Him that person's Savior.

 

[Kepha]

Although people can make the Word say what they want, typically you just read it and even a child understands it. God said He'd give understanding.

You mean like Genesis 3:15? It's one of the easiest verses to read yet you deny it.
But lets be honest. The Word 'typically' isn't as easy as you'd love to make it. You need a complete understanding of the Greek and Aramaic language first at least. Oh that's right, you got someone to do that for you didn't you and even then there's uncertainty. You also have to study the culture of that time to assist you with your studies.

I had said: "My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made.

Ok and how is that helping your argument. "My Word' includes Sacred Tradition since we are talking about the 'entire' Word of God here and not one with limits on a piece of paper. Helps my case if anything.

I had said: "The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it."

And you know this how?

Of course! Some understandings are "formed". We draw understanding out of our spirit as from deep water. Many things are plain. He has spoken much on the subject of His Word and the sin and the flesh nature issue.

If you err in your first understanding, it will lead you into more error when attempting to 'build' your doctrines from it.

Give me the book and verse. Apart from that you're saying Romans 3:23 isn't true and that's not possible.

Genesis 3:15

Not only do I understand preceptually why men or women from any time cannot live in the righteousness of God as the New Covenant prescribes. It is only received. It was not available until post-resurrection and even then, according to John, we all sin. If we say we have no sin we are a liar. That went for Mary too, and they lived together for a while.

Again, you're assuming this to be about Mary as well regarding 'sin'. Do we assume it about Christ? No because we know as the 'Word' of God tells us, He's not included. Do we assume it about Mother Mary? No because Genesis 3:15, Luke 1:28 and Luke's wording was obviously to connect Her with the old Ark of the Covenant, tells us She's not to be included. The Church (Ground and Pillar of Truth) confirms this as well.

There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception).

Then give your Bible to someone who believes God can work through Men so they cannot err when Preaching or Writing His Truths to the faithful. You obviously don't.

You feel I have to be some Pope in order to receive clear instruction from God.

I 'feel' you have to be a a Ground and Pillar of Truth, who cannot err when telling me what God wants and what God does not want regarding His entire Doctrine for the faithful. If you can, then you're of no use to me since I'll never put my faith in man in that way.

Really. I'm only saying the Word is true as it is written. Think about this for a minute.

You're only saying your interpretation and understanding without the full context added is true. You leave out other areas of the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

Not only are there many apostles, the Catholic Church has them in charimatic circles(!) I was raised by one.

The Word Apostles can have many meanings, however when used in the sense as with the NT Apostles, there are none left who fit all of these criterias. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The authority of the Apostles proceeds from the office imposed upon them by Our Lord and is based on the very explicit sayings of Christ Himself. He will be with them all days to the end of ages (Matthew 28:20), give a sanction to their preaching (Mark 16:16), send them the "promise of the Father", "virtue from above" (Luke 24:49). The Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of the New Testament show us the exercise of this authority. The Apostle makes laws (Acts 15:29; 1 Corinthians 7:12 sq.), teaches (Acts 2:37 and following), claims for his teaching that it should be received as the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), punishes (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5), administers the sacred rites (Acts 6:1 sq.; 16:33; 20:11), provides successors (2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 14:22). In the modern theological terms the Apostle, besides the power of order, has a general power of jurisdiction and magisterium (teaching). The former embraces the power of making laws judging on religious matters, and enforcing obligations by means of suitable penalties. The latter includes the power of setting forth with authority Christ'sdoctrine. It is necessary to add here that an Apostle could receive new revealedtruths in order to propose them to the Church. This, however, is something wholly personal to the Apostles. (See REVELATION; INSPIRATION.)

You don't know who they are because God instructs His people with wisdom inside "religious" institutions. You have prophets too. I have known a number of Catholic prophets.

If these 'Catholic' Prophets contradict what the Catholic Church teaches, they are false. Do they or do they not do this? What have they prophesied that came true. I'm curious now.

Sound check! I'm not changing, adding or diminishing the Word. You are!

Reality check. You most certainly are!!!

I say humbly and thankfully, that my church is a Spirit led church of signs and wonders. Jesus is Lord. The fruits are good. People aren't just attending church, they're dedicating their lives to the Lord in radical ways. Souls are being saved.

If your Church says Divorce is permitted after God forgives, that is 'bad fruit'. If your Church says the Holy Eucharist is a mere symbol. Again, bad fruit. If your Church says Mother Mary sinned, bad fruit. If your Church says the Catholic Church is not the Visible Church on Earth, bad fruit. You see, good fruit and bad fruit still come down to interpretation and understanding the Word of God. My 'Good Fruits' are not the same as yours. And we will continue to argue with even this.

For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 1 Cor 11:18-19

This has nothing to do with the Church accepting and 'never' correcting Heresy. The rest of the faithful must 'know' this heresy that's attempting to be proclaimed so that good is drawn out of this evil, manifesting who are the good and firm Christians, thereby making their faith all the more remarkable.

So I'll ask again. Show me where Heresy is ever accepted in your Bible and never meant to be corrected.

St. Augustine says: "Let us use heretics not so as to approve their errors, but to make us more wary and vigilant, and more strenuous in defending Catholic doctrine against their deceits."

I'm telling you, your fruits are filthy. They are the fruits of an unbeliever. I'm not saying that you're not a Christian, but the things you say in opposition to what God is doing reaks!

And because you have no Authority to say such a thing to me, I reject it.

I hope that with my earlier post, you'll meditate on the Word in the promises I pasted and realize that God really does speak to His people.

Thanks but no thanks.

Am I not correct to say that you are blind?

No you are not. But you are very ignorant concerning the Word of God.

You keep saying "Bible alone". I'm telling you the Spirit of God illuminates the Word.

The Word you get from THE BIBLE ALONE!!!! Are you intentionally trying to be this ignorant? Please, it's Christmas, think about all I've said ok.

You'd be shocked to know that what the spirit that appeared in those places has said is against the Word of God.

What Mother Mary has said against your man made self interpreted doctrines. That doesn't concern me in the least. It's what She said in agreement with the Doctrines of the Church I'm concerned about.

I wouldn't cast any more pearls for you to scoff at. They're not "my miracles" either.

They are for man kind whether you believe it or not.

If you mix your faith with the healing anointing, it might be hours, or days. If it's a miracle, it will be right away. If you're in the glory cloud, it's usually a miracle. Gold teeth, creative miracles, etc.

Wow, sounds like your Church is full of miracles. But as I said before, talk is cheap. Give me some sound scientifically documented proof.

He'll NEVER lead you wrong.

What a crazy thing to say when you disagree with one another on your doctrines. Again, if you're not making yourself to be the infallible leader of your protestant Church, you've no clue what conclusions of yours are true or false.
So if He has not lead you wrong concerning divorce, then any protestant brethren that disagrees are in error correct?

It's not for me to judge. God's the judge. We don't withhold communion from any believers either.

Yes, God will judge your ignorance if it's legit or not. Only true ignorance will save you.

You'll be on the solid rock of revelation. The devil cannot prevail.

No such thing as a solid rock that has heresy within it and can't be pushed out because of the lack of authority to renounce them all. You and your brethren are a mixed bag all saying how you're faith and doctrines are as solid as a rock.

 

[Alive_Again]

"I had said: "My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made."

Ok and how is that helping your argument. "My Word' includes Sacred Tradition since we are talking about the 'entire' Word of God here and not one with limits on a piece of paper. Helps my case if anything.

You could point to the fact that God is still speaking today, and He does. It doesn't help your case because it's "confirming" the lack of Word and not confirming the Word. God's Spirit Word is a lamp unto our feet. When we read the scripture He leads us to, He shines a light on it that often says, "This is My Word and it is true. Do it!" (Not add to it or take it away.)

"I had said: "The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it."

And you know this how?

Let me tell you when God does something like this, you won't mistake it for anyone else! I was typing just like I am here today and "said something" about how you can count on His Word and He pulled back the veil for a moment and confirmed His Word powerfully! It's thrilling to consider this and reminds me that even now, He is listening. I can take that experience, with all of the others and remind myself not to add or take away.

If you err in your first understanding, it will lead you into more error when attempting to 'build' your doctrines from it.

If you err, that would be true. The first understanding is that the Word is true. That's why you err not knowing the scriptures or the power of God in this case.

Again, you're assuming this to be about Mary as well regarding 'sin'. Do we assume it about Christ?

It's understood and says that those in the kingdom are greater. That includes Christ. It doesn't say God either, but God IS the kingdom.

No because we know as the 'Word' of God tells us, He's not included. Do we assume it about Mother Mary? No because Genesis 3:15, Luke 1:28 and Luke's wording was obviously to connect Her with the old Ark of the Covenant, tells us She's not to be included. The Church (Ground and Pillar of Truth) confirms this as well.

I had said: "There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception)."

Then give your Bible to someone who believes God can work through Men so they cannot err when Preaching or Writing His Truths to the faithful. You obviously don't.

I know that every man makes mistakes. I believe God works through men (obviously). He doesn't require a perfect vessel to do so. That is the incongruency with the Word. You believe Jesus had to have a perfected mother, and that somehow virginity (perpetual) is perfection, and that His servants at the highest level have to be perfect. Truly they are not.

I 'feel' you have to be a a Ground and Pillar of Truth, who cannot err when telling me what God wants and what God does not want regarding His entire Doctrine for the faithful. If you can, then you're of no use to me since I'll never put my faith in man in that way.

You have to be "grounded" as a pillar of truth. There are so many who erred that you would look up to in this way. They'd be the first ones to tell you otherwise.

"Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, Be it far from Thee, Lord: this shall not be unto Thee. But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
Matt 16:22-23

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, He did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, He withdrew and separated Himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."
Gal 2:11-12

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
Gal 2:14

"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, I will not believe."
John 20:25

"And she went and told them that had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that He was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that He appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after He was risen."
Mark 16:10-14

You leave out other areas of the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

Because it's attempting to negate the Word.

...In the modern theological terms the Apostle, besides the power of order, has a general power of jurisdiction and magisterium (teaching). The former embraces the power of making laws judging on religious matters, and enforcing obligations by means of suitable penalties. The latter includes the power of setting forth with authority Christ'sdoctrine. It is necessary to add here that an Apostle could receive new revealedtruths in order to propose them to the Church. This, however, is something wholly personal to the Apostles. (See REVELATION; INSPIRATION.)

"...and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"
Rev 2:2

Apostles are church planters that move in all of the gifts. Especially the power gifts.

If these 'Catholic' Prophets contradict what the Catholic Church teaches, they are false. Do they or do they not do this? What have they prophesied that came true. I'm curious now.

There is much within the Catholic Church that is not of God. Look at the fruits.However, there is great hope because God is moving (chiefly in the charismatic circles) to restore truth, which is actually knowing Christ and fellowshipping in the Spirit. They worship in Spirit and in truth.

If your Church says Divorce is permitted after God forgives, that is 'bad fruit'.

Usually the divorce is first. Sometimes people enter into relationships that were not of God in the first place. God forgives and RESTORES. There's no one on the sidelines refused communion because He is holding something back. That is a lie to insinuate this and withold communion from divorcees.

If your Church says the Holy Eucharist is a mere symbol. Again, bad fruit.

It is not a symbol, but it is not God. God makes it a spiritual meal according to His Word. We all eat and drink and have life from it because of His Spirit. If we didn't, we would have no life according to the Word. Really His food is doing the will of the Father.

If your Church says Mother Mary sinned, bad fruit.

The Word says that ALL sinned. The word that negates the Word is deception.

If your Church says the Catholic Church is not the Visible Church on Earth, bad fruit.

The church is the body of Christ that believes and obeys the Head, Jesus. They are found within all Christian churches.

You see, good fruit and bad fruit still come down to interpretation and understanding the Word of God.

They come down to walking in the light of truth. The light being given by the Holy Spirit today.

My 'Good Fruits' are not the same as yours. And we will continue to argue with even this.

That is apparent! Fruit are the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Great liberty. The love of God.People who have their lives changed the moment they commit their ALL to Him. People set free from drugs and alcohol. Lesbians and gays convicted of sin and set free. Sick people healed. God speaking to His people! The Words give life. It is not dry form. It is real and alive! People not just coming to church. They are giving their entire lives to His service and coming to know Him.

This has nothing to do with the Church accepting and 'never' correcting Heresy.
So I'll ask again. Show me where Heresy is ever accepted in your Bible and never meant to be corrected.

No one says that we accept heresy. It means that there are, and that there must be divisions. This is among believers! People will approve of who they will and seek God.

As I said... He'll NEVER lead you wrong.

What a crazy thing to say when you disagree with one another on your doctrines. Again, if you're not making yourself to be the infallible leader of your protestant Church, you've no clue what conclusions of yours are true or false.

You're not hearing what I'm saying. We DON"T trust in man. We DO trust in God. What He's already said, and what He's saying. The Holy Spirit bears witness to truth. The other stuff is chaff. We test ALL things. Those who are hearing from God are in unity. That is the fruit of His Lordship. You'll have disorder and disunity in all churches. It's not the church (people), it's the Body of Christ (spiritual people) who are listening and obeying the Head. You can come in and out of that status according to your yieldedness. But the fruits of obedience are always the same.

I said: "You'll be on the solid rock of revelation. The devil cannot prevail."

No such thing as a solid rock that has heresy within it and can't be pushed out because of the lack of authority to renounce them all. You and your brethren are a mixed bag all saying how you're faith and doctrines are as solid as a rock.

I'm weighing your words and you contradict every good failsafe God put in the church and scoffing it outright.

The solid rock is the present day Spirit Word revelation of God to His people. It's never my authority. It's His and it's only when I or anyone else lines up with His Spirit Word (which agrees with the logos Word).

I said; I'm telling you, your fruits are filthy. They are the fruits of an unbeliever. I'm not saying that you're not a Christian, but the things you say in opposition to what God is doing reaks!

And because you have no Authority to say such a thing to me, I reject it.

You can reject all you want. You scoff at the present day ministry of God in the believer and point to the "authority of man". That is where your trust lies.

…I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts Jer 31
…and will be their God, and they shall be My people Jer 31
…And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour Jer 31
…and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord Jer 31
…for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them Jer 31
…For as many as are led by the Spirit of God Romans 8
…they are the sons of God. Romans 8
…And they shall be all taught of God John 6
…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
…but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
…that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
…Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
…He will guide you into all truth John 16
…for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
…but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
…He will shew you things to come John 16
…He shall glorify Me John 16
…for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
…All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
…therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

Are you doing this? These are the fruits of the New Covenant Church.

...I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh Acts 2
...and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy Acts 2
...and your young men shall see visions Acts 2
...and your old men shall dream dreams Acts 2
...And on My servants and on My handmaidens Acts 2
...I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy Acts 2

Everyone shoud be receiving. The reason we don't put trust in man is because other spirits do speak. Everyone judges all things. The Spirit of truth will confirm His Word. He will not give a witness to error.

As I said: I hope that with my earlier post, you'll meditate on the Word in the promises I pasted and realize that God really does speak to His people.

Thanks but no thanks.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

[Kepha]

"I had said: "My Word" is the most repeated phrase when referring to the Bible the Lord has made."

You could point to the fact that God is still speaking today, and He does. It doesn't help your case because it's "confirming" the lack of Word and not confirming the Word. God's Spirit Word is a lamp unto our feet. When we read the scripture He leads us to, He shines a light on it that often says, "This is My Word and it is true. Do it!" (Not add to it or take it away.)

Word this and Word that. Just come out and say 'Written Word' this and 'Written Word' that ok? Because that's the foundation of your preaching.

God's Written Word cannot lead one to perfection until they're willing to concede to the Authority of the Church. Unless this is reached, you'll continue to live in a deceptive self authoritative state of delusion where you believe the Holy Spirit is leading you alone into the fullness of the truth while preaching your erroneous doctrines derived from your sinful rebellious state apart from the visible Rock on earth.

"I had said: "The Father Himself straight from the throne has confirmed (to me, the least of these) that if the Word says something, you can absolutely rely on it."

Let me tell you when God does something like this, you won't mistake it for anyone else!

Specific List of 5000+ Protestant Denominations by Name <----They all say the same thing.

It's understood and says that those in the kingdom are greater. That includes Christ. It doesn't say God either, but God IS the kingdom.

So now you've created a doctrine stating that the least in the Kingdom are greater than God on earth. Wow!

I had said: "There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception)."

You're trapping yourself here because of your insistence to make a false claim on infallibility. If God cannot make a man error free when teaching or writing His Word that is binding on all Christians, then you my friend have nothing. I want you at this very moment, to think about what you just said because if you don't stop saying this nonsense, you'll continue to make yourself look very foolish.

That is the incongruency with the Word. You believe Jesus had to have a perfected mother, and that somehow virginity (perpetual) is perfection, and that His servants at the highest level have to be perfect. Truly they are not.

Strawman.

You have to be "grounded" as a pillar of truth. There are so many who erred that you would look up to in this way. They'd be the first ones to tell you otherwise.

If there is no infallible authority to write or preach the word of God, there can be no pillar of truth to preach about.

"Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke Him, saying, Be it far from Thee, Lord: this shall not be unto Thee. But He turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
Matt 16:22-23

This was said 'before' the birth of the Church. And even if it were after, Peter still had the capability to sin, not to teach error. So the point you're making is rather a silly one.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, He did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, He withdrew and separated Himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."
Gal 2:11-12

Peter wasn't teaching against His already infallible declaration at the Council of Jerusalem regarding the Gentiles. Paul knew this and judged His actions only which may appear contrary to this Doctrine.

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
Gal 2:14

And Paul seemed to be kind of a hypocrite of His own words by giving in to the pressure to circumcise Timothy, so He could appear Jewish (Acts 16: 1-4).

"And she went and told them that had been with Him, as they mourned and wept. And they, when they had heard that He was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that He appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after He was risen."
Mark 16:10-14

Again, Jesus had yet to Breathe on them and send them out unto the world to Preach and to Teach.

The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19-22)

"...and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"
Rev 2:2

This is talking about the false believers. Those who believed yet had no Works of the Spirit. It's got nothing to do with Jesus making His Church into something that it isn't with a bunch of conflicting teachers and not visible infallible Authority to correct them when they're wrong. I want some actual Scripture that says this was acceptable in the early Church. If you can't provide it, then enough telling me it's ok and we're still all one faith.

There is much within the Catholic Church that is not of God. Look at the fruits.However, there is great hope because God is moving (chiefly in the charismatic circles) to restore truth, which is actually knowing Christ and fellowshipping in the Spirit. They worship in Spirit and in truth.

You want me to look at our fruits from your eyes? No thank you since you've still no authority to make claim which fruits are good and which are not.

Usually the divorce is first. Sometimes people enter into relationships that were not of God in the first place. God forgives and RESTORES. There's no one on the sidelines refused communion because He is holding something back. That is a lie to insinuate this and withhold communion from divorcees.

I'm not talking about the 'fake' Marriages but the legit ones. Can or can they not get divorced, be forgiven and remarry? Yes or no. Even if their spouse cheats on them.

It is not a symbol, but it is not God. God makes it a spiritual meal according to His Word.

You're preaching bad fruit right now.

We all eat and drink and have life from it because of His Spirit. If we didn't, we would have no life according to the Word. Really His food is doing the will of the Father.

"My Flesh is food indeed"

No He's not.

The Word says that ALL sinned. The word that negates the Word is deception.

Around, around we go. Then Jesus sinned as well.

The church is the body of Christ that believes and obeys the Head, Jesus. They are found within all Christian churches.

If there's no visible authority to teach what they must obey, then you've got nothing but a 'feeling' that you're right and that just isn't good enough, especially when there is so much to learn and understand.

That is apparent! Fruit are the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. Great liberty. The love of God.

Fruits have nothing to do with teaching heresy? Surely you jest.
And I asked you what these 'Catholics' prophesied about that made even you believe them?

No one says that we accept heresy. It means that there are, and that there must be divisions. This is among believers! People will approve of who they will and seek God.

As I said before, the divisions are used only to manifest the Righteous who have the 'real' faith. Not the phony ones. And to realize this, one has to be able to know when this heresy is being taught and when it isn't. Your answer pretty much continues to be that anything you say out of your mouth after careful study of the Scriptures, are legit while maintaining that you're being lead by the Holy Spirit. If that's not a claim to infallibility I don't know what is. And if what you say is true, why not go out and start correcting all the errors your brethren have fallen into. Make your own Church up so you may all be of one faith, fold and flock.

As I said... He'll NEVER lead you wrong.

Then the Adventists have doctrines of truth.

You're not hearing what I'm saying. We DON"T trust in man. We DO trust in God.

No, you trust in yourself.

I said: "You'll be on the solid rock of revelation. The devil cannot prevail."

The solid rock is the present day Spirit Word revelation of God to His people. It's never my authority. It's His and it's only when I or anyone else lines up with His Spirit Word (which agrees with the logos Word).

It's your interpretation under your authority. The devil has prevailed concerning your doctrines.

I said; I'm telling you, your fruits are filthy.

And I'm telling you that you've no authority to tell me anything so I reject what you have to say.

You can reject all you want. You scoff at the present day ministry of God

I scoff at your man made ministry, not at God's work, through His visible Church.

&#8230;I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts Jer 31
&#8230;and will be their God, and they shall be My people Jer 31
&#8230;And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour Jer 31
&#8230;and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord Jer 31
&#8230;for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them Jer 31
&#8230;For as many as are led by the Spirit of God Romans 8
&#8230;they are the sons of God. Romans 8
&#8230;And they shall be all taught of God John 6
&#8230;Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
&#8230;but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
&#8230;He will guide you into all truth John 16
&#8230;for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
&#8230;but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
&#8230;He will shew you things to come John 16
&#8230;He shall glorify Me John 16
&#8230;for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
&#8230;All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
&#8230;therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

Are you doing this? These are the fruits of the New Covenant Church.

Everything said there is within the fold of the Catholic Church.

As I said: I hope that with my earlier post, you'll meditate on the Word in the promises I pasted and realize that God really does speak to His people.

I would never waste my time meditating on man made doctrines. I would however suggest you to seriously consider how you've made yourself an authority for all Christians and how absurd your responses look to all the future lurkers on here when you continue to deny it.

 

[Alive_Again]

Word this and Word that. Just come out and say 'Written Word' this and 'Written Word' that ok? Because that's the foundation of your preaching.

You judge with an evil eye.

God's Written Word cannot lead one to perfection until they're willing to concede to the Authority of the Church. Unless this is reached, you'll continue to live in a deceptive self authoritative state of delusion where you believe the Holy Spirit is leading you alone into the fullness of the truth while preaching your erroneous doctrines derived from your sinful rebellious state apart from the visible Rock on earth.

self deceptive self authoritative state of delusion where you believe the Holy Spirit is leading you alone

He's definitely not leading me alone! He has millions of followers who walk in the Spirit. The Spirit agrees with the Word.

I said: "It's understood and says that those in the kingdom are greater. That includes Christ. It doesn't say God either, but God IS the kingdom."

So now you've created a doctrine stating that the least in the Kingdom are greater than God on earth. Wow!

You're sowing to corruption. I obviously meant that God didn't sin either when it says "all sinned". You're corrupt.

I had said: "There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception)."

You're trapping yourself here because of your insistence to make a false claim on infallibility.

You''re hearing something I'm not saying. Man IS imperfect. That is why we compare everything with the Word.

If God cannot make a man error free when teaching or writing His Word that is binding on all Christians, then you my friend have nothing.

Springs flow from the heart and lips of man. It is in the obedience to the Holy Spirit that they are pure or corrupt. Since man makes mistakes and sins, the words that he speaks must be judged. They are not received as truth until they are judged. To accept any one individual as truth just because of his position leads to the potential for error. I gave the scriptures about Peter and Paul.

I want you at this very moment, to think about what you just said because if you don't stop saying this nonsense, you'll continue to make yourself look very foolish.

I am not foolish to say that man's words from any person must be judged and weighed against scripture and the witness of the Holy Spirit. Without exception.

If there is no infallible authority to write or preach the word of God, there can be no pillar of truth to preach about.

Just like your popes. The "church" only claims infallibitility under certain conditions. Look at John Paul II. He joined in unity with religious leaders in Assisi. Those religions were led by spirits of antichrist. Literally demons. They prayed together as though to the same God. The church was later struck by an earthquake. Yet you would receive a Pope as a person who is infallible?

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, He did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, He withdrew and separated Himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."
Gal 2:11-12

Peter considered the thoughts of the circumcision before the will of God. Paul rebuked him for his wrongdoing.

And Paul seemed to be kind of a hypocrite of His own words by giving in to the pressure to circumcise Timothy, so He could appear Jewish (Acts 16: 1-4).

To the circumcision, Timothy became as the circumcised. This was to win them.

Again, Jesus had yet to Breathe on them and send them out unto the world to Preach and to Teach.

They did not go out until they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit which empowered them to become witnesses.

"...and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"
Rev 2:2

<This is talking about the false believers. Those who believed yet had no Works of the Spirit. It's got nothing to do with Jesus making His Church into something that it isn't with a bunch of conflicting teachers and not visible infallible Authority to correct them when they're wrong.

This is talking about those who claim to be apostles and are not.

If you can't provide it, then enough telling me it's ok and we're still all one faith.

The only persons of the one faith are those who are folllowing the head and the Lordship of Jesus. They are walking in love. Everyone else is either dead (tares) or they need to repent.


<I'm not talking about the 'fake' Marriages but the legit ones. Can or can they not get divorced, be forgiven and remarry?
<Yes or no. Even if their spouse cheats on them.

Jesus said:

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 19:9

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
1 Cor 7:15-16

I had said: The Word says that ALL sinned. The word that negates the Word is deception.

Around, around we go. Then Jesus sinned as well.

Repent and believe!

If there's no visible authority to teach what they must obey, then you've got nothing but a 'feeling' that you're right and that just isn't good enough, especially when there is so much to learn and understand.

There is a visible authority. Even his words must be judged. The pastor presides over the local body. It's not a "feeling", but a "light". It's a witness that only God can give. It seems obvious that you are unfamiliar with this, or you wouldn't describe it this way.

And I asked you what these 'Catholics' prophesied about that made even you believe them?

It was God that witnesses to the truth. Also the Word says that all believers should prophesy, dream spiritual dreams or have visions.

Your answer pretty much continues to be that anything you say out of your mouth after careful study of the Scriptures, are legit while maintaining that you're being lead by the Holy Spirit. If that's not a claim to infallibility I don't know what is. And if what you say is true, why not go out and start correcting all the errors your brethren have fallen into. Make your own Church up so you may all be of one faith, fold and flock.

I'm saying that all words must be judged. If they are of God, those who are of God will witness to them.

I'm sorry that the scriptures I gave you are a foreign concept to you. If you had experienced them you would understand my words perfectly.

&#8230;And they shall be all taught of God John 6
&#8230;Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
&#8230;but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
&#8230;He will guide you into all truth John 16
&#8230;for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
&#8230;but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
&#8230;He will shew you things to come John 16
&#8230;He shall glorify Me John 16
&#8230;for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
&#8230;All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
&#8230;therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

Then the Adventists have doctrines of truth.

Every denomination has their "take" on scriptures. The Adventists want to physically observe the sabbath. It is adding a form of the law. God is able to make them stand if they hear God and walk in love. Their leadership will no doubt obstruct them by limiting them in their "guidance".

I said: "You'll be on the solid rock of revelation. The devil cannot prevail."

It's your interpretation under your authority. The devil has prevailed concerning your doctrines.

My doctrine is to believe the Word. The devil has no place in this.

As I said: I hope that with my earlier post, you'll meditate on the Word in the promises I pasted and realize that God really does speak to His people.

<I would never waste my time meditating on man made doctrines. I would however suggest you to seriously consider how you've made yourself an authority for all Christians and how absurd your responses look to all the future lurkers on here when you continue to deny it.

You've twisted what I've said as though it were "MY" doctrine. I've only said that we rely on the Holy Spirit to judge all words. We compare everything that is said with the Word of God. The Holy Spirit agrees with the Word.

These are not man made doctrines.

&#8230;And they shall be all taught of God John 6
&#8230;Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
&#8230;but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
&#8230;Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
&#8230;He will guide you into all truth John 16
&#8230;for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
&#8230;but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
&#8230;He will shew you things to come John 16
&#8230;He shall glorify Me John 16
&#8230;for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
&#8230;All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
&#8230;therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

If the Holy Spirit isn't working these things in your life, then Jesus isn't your Lord. He said He would. For those others who read. If you want Him to. He will!

A final review of the whole point of the doctrine I am preaching:

The Word of God is true.
The Holy Spirit agrees with the Word
The Holy Spirit indwells the believer and witnesses to the truth.

Man if fallible and makes mistakes.
Every great man of God in the Bible made mistakes. Many are captured in the Word.
Pastors, Bishops, Apostles or whoever all make mistakes too.
All of their words must be weighed against scripture and discerned spiritually
The Holy Spirit provides the discernment

I am fallible and make mistakes (often).
All of my words must be weighed against scripture and discerned for truth (by the Holy Spirit).
God has spoken to me and told me that I could trust His Word for truth.
The Holy Spirit has also said that all words must be discerned for truth.
The Bereans according to scripture compared Paul's preaching against the Word
It was the more excellent way.
I'm not preaching a strange doctrine, only that the Word is true.
If man comes along and negates the Word, it is a doctrine of demons.

It is not supposed to be a rare thing for God to speak to His people. He does it a lot. Many others hear Him better than I do. I am neither a leader, nor am I espousing a new doctrine. It's all in the Word.

Those who twist the scriptures do so to their own destruction.
They lead the flock into a ditch.

We're heading toward a time where everything that can be shaken will be shaken.

That means the man made structures known as "the church" will be shaken. The things of man will shake and the things of God will remain unshakeable.

Every man will have to make a choice in their heart when what they trusted (like the Jews in Jesus' day) or follow the real move of God (even within the Catholic Church).

I pray you all make the best choice.