All have sinned?

[Kepha]

You judge with an evil eye.

And you judge period, like you're doing with that comment.

He's definitely not leading me alone! He has millions of followers who walk in the Spirit. The Spirit agrees with the Word.

One can't fully walk in the Spirit while walking in heresy.

I had said: "There are no infallible men. That is a deception. I don't compare myself with anyone (another deception)."

You''re hearing something I'm not saying. Man IS imperfect. That is why we compare everything with the Word.

Where does it say to compare everything to the Written Word Only?
And the Bible doesn't have a little speaker attached to it that starts preaching and explaining away. Your sinful self has to do that and 'hope' the Holy Spirit is leading you every time for every conclusion you make. And since you've admitted that you have been wrong while believing you were being lead by the Holy Spirit, then you can't ever be sure ever again.

I am not foolish to say that man's words from any person must be judged and weighed against scripture and the witness of the Holy Spirit. Without exception.

You are when you deny that your brain, experiences, nature to sin, and limited knowledge does the interpreting.

Just like your popes. The "church" only claims infallibility under certain conditions. Look at John Paul II. He joined in unity with religious leaders in Assisi. Those religions were led by spirits of antichrist. Literally demons. They prayed together as though to the same God. The church was later struck by an earthquake. Yet you would receive a Pope as a person who is infallible?

May I have a legitimate link, since such an accusation followed by a judgment on your part surely deserves one don't you think.

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, He did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, He withdrew and separated Himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."
Gal 2:11-12

Peter considered the thoughts of the circumcision before the will of God. Paul rebuked him for his wrongdoing.
To the circumcision, Timothy became as the circumcised. This was to win them.

Where did Peter teach that this was acceptable? I don't care that He sinned. That's not the point I'm getting at and you know it. If Peter can teach error, then throw all of His writings away since they are now suspect.

They did not go out until they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit which empowered them to become witnesses.

And they didn't receive the Holy Spirit till Jesus sent them out and COMMANDED them using His full authority after breathing on them. That's the 2nd time God breathed on a human being. The first was when He created us. So something significant just happened there and it wasn't just a bunch of non denominational Christians that may or may not have been right, when they went out to preach and to teach.

"...and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:"
Rev 2:2

<This is talking about the false believers. Those who believed yet had no Works of the Spirit. It's got nothing to do with Jesus making His Church into something that it isn't with a bunch of conflicting teachers and not visible infallible Authority to correct them when they're wrong.

This is talking about those who claim to be apostles and are not.

Sorry, it's not talking about the same type of Apostle as I gave with my link.

The only persons of the one faith are those who are following the head and the Lordship of Jesus. They are walking in love. Everyone else is either dead (tares) or they need to repent.

This is only talking about those who no longer follow the Spirit. I do not disagree.

<I'm not talking about the 'fake' Marriages but the legit ones. Can or can they not get divorced, be forgiven and remarry?
<Yes or no. Even if their spouse cheats on them.

Jesus said:

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 19:9

I asked you to explain it and not throw a verse at me. You're sure doing your best to avoid this aren't you.

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
1 Cor 7:15-16

Catholics have this since the Marriage isn't a Sacramental one to begin with.

There is a visible authority. Even his words must be judged. The pastor presides over the local body.

A fallible pastor has no business to judge when he's unsure of all the Doctrines of Christ.

It's not a "feeling", but a "light". It's a witness that only God can give. It seems obvious that you are unfamiliar with this, or you wouldn't describe it this way.

It's your own personal 'feeling' and you'd be a fool to expect me to have confidence in it. The pedigree of my Church goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back as far as you were 'saved'.

It was God that witnesses to the truth. Also the Word says that all believers should prophesy, dream spiritual dreams or have visions.

I asked you what they saw in their prophesy for you to make a judgment that they were legit. But just as I thought. You're all talk, no action.

I'm saying that all words must be judged. If they are of God, those who are of God will witness to them.

Your words are judged after you've personally decided on what they mean. I have no confidence in you or your authority to teach.

I'm sorry that the scriptures I gave you are a foreign concept to you. If you had experienced them you would understand my words perfectly.

…And they shall be all taught of God John 6
…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
…but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
…that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
…Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
…He will guide you into all truth John 16
…for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
…but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
…He will shew you things to come John 16
…He shall glorify Me John 16
…for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
…All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
…therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

It's only because you're wrongfully misapplying these to fit your personal belief system as to why you think these Words of God are eluding me.

Every denomination has their "take" on scriptures. The Adventists want to physically observe the sabbath. It is adding a form of the law. God is able to make them stand if they hear God and walk in love. Their leadership will no doubt obstruct them by limiting them in their "guidance".

I asked you for proof that God wills his members to live in error. This isn't the proof. It's an opinion without merit.

You've twisted what I've said as though it were "MY" doctrine. I've only said that we rely on the Holy Spirit to judge all words. We compare everything that is said with the Word of God. The Holy Spirit agrees with the Word.

It's how you've applied this logic and that is to yourself alone thereby excluding the Church's capacity to teach and to bind on all men with the authority that you lack.

These are not man made doctrines.

…And they shall be all taught of God John 6
…Now we have received, not the spirit of the world 1 Cor 2
…but the Spirit which is of God 1 Cor 2
…that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God 1 Cor 2
…Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come John 16
…He will guide you into all truth John 16
…for He shall not speak of Himself John 16
…but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak John 16
…He will shew you things to come John 16
…He shall glorify Me John 16
…for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16
…All things that the Father hath are Mine John 16
…therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you John 16

If the Holy Spirit isn't working these things in your life, then Jesus isn't your Lord. He said He would. For those others who read. If you want Him to. He will!

The Holy Spirit works through me as I'm connected to both the visible and invisible Church. To disassociate myself with it while claiming He's fully leading me into truth is a delusion.

Man if fallible and makes mistakes.
Every great man of God in the Bible made mistakes. Many are captured in the Word.

How can man be captured with Words on paper that he 'could' mistake to be saying something else. I'm astounded in your lack of ability to comprehend what I'm saying here.

Pastors, Bishops, Apostles or whoever all make mistakes too.

Correct. However they still know what they're supposed to teach since the Magisterium cannot make a mistake.

I am fallible and make mistakes (often).
All of my words must be weighed against scripture and discerned for truth (by the Holy Spirit).

Weighed against words you misinterpret.

The Holy Spirit has also said that all words must be discerned for truth.
The Bereans according to scripture compared Paul's preaching against the Word

Where did the Bereans learn about the Trinity in their OT to see if what Paul said was correct? And don't tell me He never taught them this since it's the most basic doctrine of Christianity.

If man comes along and negates the Word, it is a doctrine of demons.

Correct. So renounce them and come back to the fold.

It is not supposed to be a rare thing for God to speak to His people. He does it a lot.

He did it using prophets who were never wrong and with His Apostles who never taught Heresy.

Many others hear Him better than I do. I am neither a leader, nor am I espousing a new doctrine. It's all in the Word.

Yes but not in the Written Word only.

 

[Alive_Again]

One can't fully walk in the Spirit while walking in heresy.

I believe it!

Where does it say to compare everything to the Written Word Only?

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19-21

If we know the scripture is a light, literally inspired by God, and we know from scripture that God's nature never changes, It makes sense to judge everything by what He has already said. The practice has been going on for millenia. Also, the Holy Spirit has said to make sure prophecy lines up with the Word.

Your sinful self has to do that and 'hope' the Holy Spirit is leading you every time for every conclusion you make.

I typically don't make any conclusions based on my own thoughts (I don't publish them). If I'm searching for an understanding, I might "test it" by saying it. Often the Lord "tugs the reins" if I'm to the right or the left. If I'm right on, He sometimes lets oil flow. We can "search" for an understanding if things are not clear. It should be understood that that is what is happening.

And since you've admitted that you have been wrong while believing you were being lead by the Holy Spirit, then you can't ever be sure ever again.

That's not how the Lord talks. I didn't say I was wrong while believing I was being led, although I have made mistakes. Some leadings are very gentle. A witness from the Lord is not gentle.

You are when you deny that your brain, experiences, nature to sin, and limited knowledge does the interpreting.

We're talking about the most fundamental precept. Receiving and believing the Word.

I had said: ...Look at John Paul II. He joined in unity with religious leaders in Assisi. Those religions were led by spirits of antichrist.
<May I have a legitimate link, since such an accusation followed by a judgment on your part surely deserves one don't you think.

I probably don't condone everything they say at the links below. But they have information on the event.

New Photos of John Paul II

Q. 7:[bless and do not curse] Should we follow everthing that Pope John Paul II does?

If Peter can teach error, then throw all of His writings away since they are now suspect.

We're talking about anointed men of God who sometimes make mistakes. Everything must be judged and compared with known revelation. We didn't always have the New Testament. The early church relied a lot on the inward witness to truth. Like today, all words must be judged.

And they didn't receive the Holy Spirit till Jesus sent them out and COMMANDED them using His full authority after breathing on them. That's the 2nd time God breathed on a human being. The first was when He created us. So something significant just happened there and it wasn't just a bunch of non denominational Christians that may or may not have been right, when they went out to preach and to teach.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 20:21-22

He breathed on them in John 20. There were not sent out. It was a rushing wind in the Book of Acts.

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. And He led them out as far as to Bethany, and He lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, He was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Luke 24:47-53

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from Heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4

Sorry, it's not talking about the same type of Apostle as I gave with my link.

We understand the precept of those who say they are apostles and are not.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 19:9

I asked you to explain it and not throw a verse at me. You're sure doing your best to avoid this aren't you.

This is the explanation. Save for fornication.

Catholics have this since the Marriage isn't a Sacramental one to begin with.

An unbiblical term. It's one you guys use. If you think that marriage isn't real because it's not Catholic.. As you were.

It's your own personal 'feeling' and you'd be a fool to expect me to have confidence in it. The pedigree of my Church goes back 2000 years. Yours goes back as far as you were 'saved'.

It is quite apparent that you do not know of the ways of the Spirit. You can though. He'll teach you personally Himself. But you must humble yourself and believe first. You must also repent of the attitude that non Catholics cannot be led of the Holy Spirit and walk in truth --- in the light as God intends. God is no respecter of persons.The "faith" that says: "We're the true church" is covered with a mantle of pride. Believe me, God is moving mightily in the church (outside of Catholicism).

I asked you what they saw in their prophesy for you to make a judgment that they were legit. But just as I thought. You're all talk, no action.

You do not exhibit any humility. You're negatively critical, judgmental per the flesh, basically an unbeliever as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. You've already trampled on my pearls several times. You think I would do that again?

Your words are judged after you've personally decided on what they mean. I have no confidence in you or your authority to teach.

It is pointless to explain to you because you wear the hat of a scoffer.

It's only because you're wrongfully misapplying these to fit your personal belief system as to why you think these Words of God are eluding me.

I'm saying in general that He bears witness to the truth. He speaks today. I've only spoken of the authority of the Word, which you reject. You really don't believe that "protestants" can receive direction from the Holy Spirit without pointing to the Catholic Church. Am I not correct?

I asked you for proof that God wills his members to live in error. This isn't the proof. It's an opinion without merit.

Those who walk in the truth do not live in error. It is your belief that "Protestants" live in error. Therefore for God to have a will for "Protestant" believers, it must be only limited to "repenting" and going to Catholicism. God does NOT will His members to live in error. He still works within systems of error. As you might know. Although I'm doubting there is life beyond your continual religious pride your words paint. How I wish we had true fellowship. Your words are accusatory because I acknowledge the Word of God as authoritative and the Holy Spirit's working even in the "Protestant" church.

...that is to yourself alone thereby excluding the Church's capacity to teach and to bind on all men with the authority that you lack.

Where do you come up with this? "Yourself alone?" The church can and does teach. It must agree with the revelation we have already.

As far as authority goes, I can walk in the light I've been given. I have authority in Christ to bind up evil spirits and to preach the Word He places in my heart. I have authority in the light, to be a "do'er of the Word" in all it's facets. As a believer, I have a covenant right to receive instruction directly from God (just like everyone else). Why would anyone want to "bind on all men"? What is that all about?

How can man be captured with Words on paper that he 'could' mistake to be saying something else. I'm astounded in your lack of ability to comprehend what I'm saying here.

Don't be too astounded. You're not being very clear.

...since the Magisterium cannot make a mistake.

I'm telling you, this is deception. They've made a ton of mistakes.

Where did the Bereans learn about the Trinity in their OT to see if what Paul said was correct? And don't tell me He never taught them this since it's the most basic doctrine of Christianity.

I'm not sure what brought this on? The Trinity was not really a doctrine of the Old Testament. Jesus was only vaguely mentioned in the Psalms as God's Son that I know of. This was the wisdom "hidden from the ages" as far as God coming down to Earth. The "Spirit of God" was the creator. God as Father was spoken (once that I can recall) of in the prophets. The Israelites were not really sons in the OT, but rather "servants", so they wouldn't really know Him as "Father". That is my understanding of it. The point of the Bereans is that they compared teaching with scripture.

Correct. So renounce them and come back to the fold.

You're still hung up on the Catholic thing. You'd be surprised to know that God is well pleased with many "Protestants". He does not see His people who do the Law written in their hearts as having segments. Even the Pharisees and Saduccees were part of the "children of Israel". The sects were a product of man's thinking.

It's sad really because that means you'll never be in unity. You could be. I could tell you some wonderful stories of God moving. (You'd never believe it.) It's got nothing to do with denominations. God doesn't see them! It's about walking in love. It will reflect the Word. The law written in your heart. That's what you're answerable to, not the requirements of denominations.

 

[Kepha]

Kepha said: Where does it say to compare everything to the Written Word Only?
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19-21

If we know the scripture is a light, literally inspired by God, and we know from scripture that God's nature never changes, It makes sense to judge everything by what He has already said. The practice has been going on for millenia. Also, the Holy Spirit has said to make sure prophecy lines up with the Word.

What on earth are you even talking about here? Your passage is talking about prophecy not being interpreted by private interpretation as you continue to do in this thread. Nowhere is it saying to compare all truths to the Written Word only.

Kepha said: Your sinful self has to do that and 'hope' the Holy Spirit is leading you every time for every conclusion you make.

I typically don't make any conclusions based on my own thoughts (I don't publish them). If I'm searching for an understanding, I might "test it" by saying it. Often the Lord "tugs the reins" if I'm to the right or the left. If I'm right on, He sometimes lets oil flow. We can "search" for an understanding if things are not clear. It should be understood that that is what is happening.

This is you again saying how the Holy Spirit never leads you wrong thereby making you infallible whenever you interpret Scripture. We continue to go in circles because you're continuing to repeat the same things. That the Holy Spirit can't mislead you yet you're a fallible man. It's as if I'm talking to the Apostle Paul Himself here lol.

That's not how the Lord talks. I didn't say I was wrong while believing I was being led, although I have made mistakes. Some leadings are very gentle. A witness from the Lord is not gentle.
We're talking about the most fundamental precept. Receiving and believing the Word.

Again, you're not making sense because I don't think you have an answer here. Whether it's gentle or not, you're still not being lead in another direction from what you're saying here making you your own Pope.

I had said: ...Look at John Paul II. He joined in unity with religious leaders in Assisi. Those religions were led by spirits of antichrist.
<May I have a legitimate link, since such an accusation followed by a judgment on your part surely deserves one don't you think.

I probably don't condone everything they say at the links below. But they have information on the event.

That link is from a Schismatic Catholic site who'll twist anything if it helps their cause. Aside from that, one must know exactly what's going through His mind when for instance He kissed the Koran. We understand 100 percent that He disagrees with the Muslim faith so it could have been out of respect for any truth it may have contained within or out of respect as He often kissed their ground or had shaken hands with leaders who were extremely corrupt. Even Christ ate with sinners but that doesn't mean He agreed with them.

New Photos of John Paul II

Q. 7:[bless and do not curse] Should we follow everthing that Pope John Paul II does?

Not every Pope lived a virtuous life nor are we meant to always imitate their sinful behaviors. I'm certain the Apostles themselves from time to time had sinned but NEVER taught heresy. Two completely different things.

Matthew 23:3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

We're talking about anointed men of God who sometimes make mistakes. Everything must be judged and compared with known revelation. We didn't always have the New Testament. The early church relied a lot on the inward witness to truth. Like today, all words must be judged.

Everything must be lined up by infallible proclamation by any Pope , Ecumenical Council of the Church or teachings from the ordinary Magisterium of the Church who adds the filling to the Written Word of God.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
John 20:21-22

He breathed on them in John 20. There were not sent out. It was a rushing wind in the Book of Acts.

"..as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you."

St. Augustine explains it best here:

The word mission, when applied to our Saviour Christ, sometimes signifies his eternal procession from the Father, and sometimes his mission, as he was sent into the world to become man, and the Redeemer of mankind: the first mission agrees with him, as the eternal Son of God; the second, as man, or as both God and man. The mission which Christ here gives his apostles, is like this latter mission, with this great difference, that graces and divine gifts were bestowed on Christ, even as man, without measure: and the apostles had a much lesser share in both these missions.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from Heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4

The Church acknowledges it's Birth came at the day of Pentecost. So why the quote?

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 19:9

This is the explanation. Save for fornication.

The word fornication (porneias) has many definitions for it and we need to be certain if there's really an exception here. Fornication in the Biblical sense usually meant unnatural sex or unmarried sexual unions therefore implying that it likewise means it here as well. We must also realize that Mark, Luke and Paul NEVER made any exceptions in their their parallel teachings regarding divorce.

So it seems something that appears so easy to understand, isn't easy at all and if you rely on sola Scripture alone then it's also the reason why protestants are having problems reconciling that verse with one another and is more proof of that gaping hole I mentioned earlier.

An unbiblical term. It's one you guys use. If you think that marriage isn't real because it's not Catholic.. As you were.

I said it wasn't Sacramental.

You must also repent of the attitude that non Catholics cannot be led of the Holy Spirit and walk in truth --- in the light as God intends.

I said you are not walking in the fullness of truth. The Holy Spirit many times is leading non Catholics to the Church.You say that Holy Spirit is completely leading your life yet you remain in error making it one heck of a paradox.

You do not exhibit any humility. You're negatively critical, judgmental per the flesh, basically an unbeliever as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. You've already trampled on my pearls several times. You think I would do that again?

Every breath you muster on here is against the visible Church that Christ established on earth so do not sit back like you're an innocent party. You even said the Apparitions of Our Lady were the work of the devil. You slandered Pope John Paul II.

If I agree with most of what you say, I would be renouncing my faith. That has nothing to do with sinful pride of man.

It is pointless to explain to you because you wear the hat of a scoffer.

I scoff at untruths disguising itself as truth.

I'm saying in general that He bears witness to the truth. He speaks today. I've only spoken of the authority of the Word, which you reject. You really don't believe that "protestants" can receive direction from the Holy Spirit without pointing to the Catholic Church. Am I not correct?

You are incorrect.

Those who walk in the truth do not live in error. It is your belief that "Protestants" live in error. Therefore for God to have a will for "Protestant" believers, it must be only limited to "repenting" and going to Catholicism.

Only invincible ignorance can save you and not for me to judge.

God does NOT will His members to live in error. He still works within systems of error. As you might know. Although I'm doubting there is life beyond your continual religious pride your words paint. How I wish we had true fellowship.[/QUOTE]
Your system is set up so that He will remain in a system of error. I've been stating for sometime now that this was never His intentions nor is there any biblical proof, yet instead, set up a system so we may KNOW the truth without any doubt.

Your words are accusatory because I acknowledge the Word of God as authoritative and the Holy Spirit's working even in the "Protestant" church.

You acknowledge yourself as a person who's infallible and cannot error on doctrines because the Holy Spirit is leading you.

Where do you come up with this? "Yourself alone?" The church can and does teach. It must agree with the revelation we have already.

The thousands of protestants secs contradict. That isn't teaching but is a structure of confusion.

As a believer, I have a covenant right to receive instruction directly from God (just like everyone else). Why would anyone want to "bind on all men"? What is that all about?

Lose the pride you have to set yourself up as a pope and come back to the fold where you belong. It's only because you remain in your condition as to why you remain blind.

I'm telling you, this is deception. They've made a ton of mistakes.

And I'm telling you, when binding Doctrines regarding faith and morals they haven't.

I'm not sure what brought this on? The Trinity was not really a doctrine of the Old Testament. Jesus was only vaguely mentioned in the Psalms as God's Son that I know of. This was the wisdom "hidden from the ages" as far as God coming down to Earth. The "Spirit of God" was the creator. God as Father was spoken (once that I can recall) of in the prophets. The Israelites were not really sons in the OT, but rather "servants", so they wouldn't really know Him as "Father". That is my understanding of it. The point of the Bereans is that they compared teaching with scripture.

My point is since the trinity was very implicit, they went outside their teachings to believe Paul. If they were exact as you are, they'd never have converted but remained like the Thessalonians and rejected Him. The Thessalonians were the true sS advocates we have today.

The sects were a product of man's thinking.

The sects are a product of Scripture alone.

It's sad really because that means you'll never be in unity.

I am in unity with obedient Catholics, with the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering. What's sad is so long as you remain where you are, you'll keep your self outside this unity.

 

[Alive_Again]

What on earth are you even talking about here? Your passage is talking about prophecy not being interpreted by private interpretation as you continue to do in this thread. Nowhere is it saying to compare all truths to the Written Word only.

It's precept upon precept.

First precept: The Scripture is a sure Word from God Himself.
Second precept: God never changes
Third precept: Compare everything attributed to God alongside what He's already said (He won't contradict Himself).
The Holy Spirit said to do this. We learned this from Him.

I've maintained it's not by private interpretation, and to take it as it is written. You say I'm making it private? Your make it private when the oral tradition entered in to change the meaning and exclude Mary. That is a private interpretation. It's private because it's not in the Word.

This is you again saying how the Holy Spirit never leads you wrong thereby making you infallible whenever you interpret Scripture. We continue to go in circles because you're continuing to repeat the same things. That the Holy Spirit can't mislead you yet you're a fallible man. It's as if I'm talking to the Apostle Paul Himself here lol.

Why are you so tunnel visioned this way? From the beginning I said man was fallible. I've said I make mistakes. He doesn't. That's why you trust Him in His Word. The Apostle Paul? How about a child of God who receives the Word as a little child. Don't just believe me, believe Him. What I say must line up with the Word. That's the whole point of everything that I've said.

Again, you're not making sense because I don't think you have an answer here. Whether it's gentle or not, you're still not being lead in another direction from what you're saying here making you your own Pope.

You can pretty much stop it with the Pope. I don't receive the Pope as an authority and your analogy doesn't hold water because I'm pointing to God and not myself. I understand that he leads people, but though his fruit may be "religious", He does not appear to minister under an anointing.

It seems as though you believe the Pope is the only one receiving dynamic instruction here on the Earth. I hope he's getting it. It's not to be assume because many religious people have not even been born again! How many have I heard that went to church for many years and finally entered into covenant with God (dedicating their whole life to Him) as a born again believer. They said they never knew the Lord previously, although they went to church in "good faith".

I want to tell you that all of those scripture bits ... I pasted earlier are for EVERY believer today. You didn't have "time" for them. You said: "No thanks".

That link is from a Schismatic Catholic site who'll twist anything if it helps their cause.

As I said... "I probably don't condone everything they say at the links below. But they have information on the event."

The event occurred. There are other sites with information on this event. He joined together in prayer, in unity with other demonically inspired "faiths". Regardless of how the website feels about John Paul II (I actually respected a lot of what he was about), made the mistake. It was a very fallible mistake. In fact, it demonstrated a profound ignorance of the ways of God. As far as kissing the Koran. The Koran is a demonically inspired book which "leaders" of Christian churches don't kiss or "revere", no matter how good their intentions are. I'm sure he meant well, but it was EXTREMELY misguided. Christ preached to sinners and they often repented. It was usually the religious who did not repent. John Paul II entered into unity with them. Some of the quotes he made to the various leaders of the "faiths" were outrageous. Why can't he do that with the Baptists, Methodists, Assemblies of God, Pentecostals, etc? I don't let it define the man, but it proves his fallibility (which most Catholics knew anyway, no matter how well they thought of him). I have always respected that he never "caved" on the homosexuality issue.

I would guess that the Apostles never taught heresy, but any pope who endorsed the inquisition endorsed a heresy. We know that outright.

Matthew 23:3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

This was talking about priest who ministered under the Law, when they preached the Law.

The word fornication (porneias) has many definitions for it and we need to be certain if there's really an exception here. Fornication in the Biblical sense usually meant unnatural sex or unmarried sexual unions therefore implying that it likewise means it here as well.
So it seems something that appears so easy to understand, isn't easy at all and if you rely on sola Scripture alone

Why isn't it easy to understand? If we're to be responsible for it, why would God make it difficult to understand? We also know that if the unbelieving spouse departs, the other is not in "bondage".

I said it wasn't Sacramental.

Describe what you believe a "sacramental marriage" is, and isn't?

The Holy Spirit many times is leading non Catholics to the Church.

He's leading people to Jesus. Jesus leads His people to the Father.

You say that Holy Spirit is completely leading your life yet you remain in error making it one heck of a paradox.

I have said that I make mistakes. My "error" is in being what you call a "Protestant"

I said: "You do not exhibit any humility. You're negatively critical, judgmental per the flesh, basically an unbeliever as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. You've already trampled on my pearls several times. You think I would do that again?"

Every breath you muster on here is against the visible Church that Christ established on earth so do not sit back like you're an innocent party. You even said the Apparitions of Our Lady were the work of the devil. You slandered Pope John Paul II.

You know I said this because in your critical spirit wanted to "judge" prophetic words of which I would give you no such pleasure. I speak no word against the Body of Christ. Let it be known that from the beginning I have only advocated trusting God in His Word without adding to it or taking anything away. I also acknowledge the ministry of the Holy Spirit which you equate to acting like a (for the last time) a "Pope".

I said that when you compare the words of these apparitions they conflict with the Word of God (that is truth). This is whole point of all of my claims. I'm not slandering John Paul II either. I simply stated that he erred mightily in gathering in prayer in unity with religions of demonic origin. He unknowingly allowed their spirits to "minister" alongside someone who called upon the name of Jesus. Let me tell you... GOD HATES THIS. I do respect many other things he did, nor do I render a final judgment against him, as that is not my business, but God's.

I scoff at untruths disguising itself as truth.

You are incorrect.

Why don't you explain what ministry you believe "Protestants" are capable of and are blessed by God in doing? Ministry direct from the Holy Spirit.

Only invincible ignorance can save you and not for me to judge.

Explain this concept.

God does NOT will His members to live in error. He still works within systems of error. As you might know. Although I'm doubting there is life beyond your continual religious pride your words paint. How I wish we had true fellowship.

You acknowledge yourself as a person who's infallible and cannot error on doctrines because the Holy Spirit is leading you.

This is nothing like what I have been saying. You are twisting my words. I've suffered long with you. I am sorry that religious pride has obscured your view of the authority of the scripture and your scoffing of His ministry in my life. You no doubt feel it's some loyalty thing to your denomination, but it's not a good testimony to real Christians. I'm hoping that in the great shaking to come you will make the right choice.

Lose the pride you have to set yourself up as a pope and come back to the fold where you belong. It's only because you remain in your condition as to why you remain blind.

You say that I am blind. I came from a wonderful service this morning and experienced the presence of the Lord. I was fed by the Word. I enjoyed good fellowship and then went out witnessing. I'll be in the Word tonight seeking revelation knowledge of the covenant and His plan for my life. Do you really feel that because I am not Catholic that I am blind? I've been telling you to receive the Word of God and believe that the Holy Spirit ministers to all believers. You say the "p" word again and feel that I am an authority to myself. This is your version of being honest. Who is deceived?

If they were exact as you are, they'd never have converted but remained like the Thessalonians and rejected Him.

That is your belief. The "God man" was difficult for the religious mind to receive. The works said otherwise. Those who had ears for the scriptures about His life received His divinity easily. They say that the Jews primarily related to God as the "Spririt of the Lord", not so much Father. Jesus enabled us to become sons and receive God as our Father. The Elohim was a plural noun. In Genesis it said "Let us..." I'm sure the Bereans had a great time searching the scriptures to find the many confirming Words from the OT.

What's sad is so long as you remain where you are, you'll keep your self outside this unity.

The unity is in the Spirit. I can receive all believers who walk in the light without any further qualification.

I can enjoy (real) communion with any believer. I receive forgiveness of my sins any time any place when I repent and believe. I can share the truth of the Word of God with any believer who will receive it. Even with those who don't, because I am only responsible to share it. I don't have to ask what church they go to. It's not relevant. I've taken Catholic communion, Episcopal communion, non-denominational communion, Assembly of God communion. It's all the same. It's a spiritual meal by the Spirit of God. If I lead someone to the Lord, I don't need to run them by a church first. I can even let God lead them to where He wants to take them. I can listen to any anointed teaching and not be concerned about where they fellowship. I can gather with a handful or so of believers in someone's home and we can have church anywhere we go and receive directly from God. This is what it means to be in unity with a spiritual body. The spiritual body doesn't have any labels on it. It's free.

 

[Kepha]

It's precept upon precept.

First precept: The Scripture is a sure Word from God Himself.
Second precept: God never changes
Third precept: Compare everything attributed to God alongside what He's already said (He won't contradict Himself).
The Holy Spirit said to do this. We learned this from Him.

First off, the Holy Spirit never said to do this only or you'd be having a heck of a time as I previously stated, comparing with what they taught regarding the Holy Trinity, to the OT Writings for proof. One needs an Infallible interpreter (In this case Peter) and the guide of the Holy Spirit for understanding such a truth.

Peter is basically saying that because they already fully believe in their OT Scriptures, it's more surer to them in case they should ever get suspicious about His and the Apostle's personal testimony regarding Christ. However, they can only be as sure so long as it's interpreted with a proper disposition guided by the Spirit. But they still needed someone interpreting for them to even lead them in the right direction since I've never heard of a Jewish convert who came up with the Trinity all by himself without any prior Christian influence on him. But according to you, it's possible. According to me, it isn't since that's simply not how it worked.

Secondly, if you wish to count this as some sort of proof text where all Christians should take the Written Word above anything else, then it means that every future Christian (since He was writing to Christians at the time) must adhere to the OT only above any that may come afterward. To sum it up, Peter was Inspired when He wrote this but your line of reasoning implies that He's saying that the Written Word regarding Prophecy was a more 'surer word' than even His own 'Inspired' Writings. Obviously as per usual, you're wrong regarding your interpretation because your fallible sinful mind 'wants' it to help your case thereby twisting what the Inspired Word is actually saying here.

Thirdly, according to you, the Holy Spirit leads you into fully understanding the Written Word of God. Where you 'know' He's pointing you in the right direction. So why didn't these early Baptised Christians 'know' they were being lead by the Spirit when reading Peter's Writings. Why was He even telling them to go back to the OT as it was a more surer Word if He knew the Spirit would allow them accept His Writings.

Anyways, again, let's read on to see what He does say about Private Interpretation as with what you continue to do with Scripture.

20 *Understanding this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is made by private interpretation.
21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time; but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by anyone's private spirit, but by the same Spirit they were written in, which is only contained within the Church and not a church of multiple members with multiple interpretations.

I've maintained it's not by private interpretation, and to take it as it is written. You say I'm making it private? Your make it private when the oral tradition entered in to change the meaning and exclude Mary. That is a private interpretation. It's private because it's not in the Word.

It's the more explicit Word of God.

Example:

This is the Written Word of God--->> "Let US make man in our image, in our likeness"

This is the Oral Word and more explicit Word of God---->> "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

And I make nothing Private since I'm placing my trust in the Holy Spirit to lead the visible Church into 'all truths' as Jesus said Himself. My interpretation is only guided in so far by the already declared Dogmas or teachings through the Ordinary Magistrium of the Church.

Why are you so tunnel visioned this way? From the beginning I said man was fallible. I've said I make mistakes. He doesn't. That's why you trust Him in His Word.

I'm tunnel vision? The Word MUST BE INTERPRETED THEREFORE MAKING YOU INFALLIBLE WHEN DOING SO IF YOU WISH TO BIND YOUR DOCTRINES ON FUTURE CHRISTIANS. Because what you say the Word is saying, only goes so far as your fallible interpretation and nothing I can trust in 100 percent to know it can't ever change to the contrary.

The Apostle Paul? How about a child of God who receives the Word as a little child. Don't just believe me, believe Him.

It has nothing to do about how simple the Word of God is where even a child could understand. You're twisting it to mean that.

Cornelius Jansen, Bishop of Ypres explains it this way:

"Humble souls, who are little in their own eyes, are so dear and closely united to the Almighty, that Christ declares them to be the most acceptable, the first in merit, not highest in authority or dignity either in church or state, as some idle fanatics pretend."

What I say must line up with the Word. That's the whole point of everything that I've said.

Man, you're just not getting it and I'm growing tired of this discussion since we sound like two parrots repeating things over and over to each other.

You can pretty much stop it with the Pope. I don't receive the Pope as an authority and your analogy doesn't hold water because I'm pointing to God and not myself.

So does the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church. You've more in common than you think.

It seems as though you believe the Pope is the only one receiving dynamic instruction here on the Earth.

The Pope never has things pop up in His head and say "Hey, I think I'll make this Dogma today." That's not how it works.

How many have I heard that went to church for many years and finally entered into covenant with God (dedicating their whole life to Him) as a born again believer. They said they never knew the Lord previously, although they went to church in "good faith".

It's called being poorly catechized or a preference to accept doctrines that more suits their lives like the one on divorce.

I want to tell you that all of those scripture bits ... I pasted earlier are for EVERY believer today. You didn't have "time" for them. You said: "No thanks".

I believe in ALL Scripture. Just not what you say it's saying.

The event occurred. There are other sites with information on this event. He joined together in prayer, in unity with other demonically inspired "faiths". Regardless of how the website feels about John Paul II (I actually respected a lot of what he was about), made the mistake. It was a very fallible mistake. In fact, it demonstrated a profound ignorance of the ways of God.

As far as kissing the Koran. The Koran is a demoniacally inspired book which "leaders" of Christian churches don't kiss or "revere", no matter how good their intentions are.

Again, you have to know His heart when doing such a thing. Obviously it wasn't to respect the 'evil' untruths written in the Koran. That would be absurd.

I'm sure he meant well, but it was EXTREMELY misguided.

I don't believe that's for you to judge.

Christ preached to sinners and they often repented. It was usually the religious who did not repent. John Paul II entered into unity with them.

Pope John Paul NEVER prayed in unity with them anymore than I could pray in full unity with any protestant since it's clear we aren't in full unity. The Muslim God is the same as mine since He's the God of Abraham. Just because they've distorted who He is, doesn't mean they were praying to a different God. To suggest this is to say the Jews also pray to another God because they distort who He is and disbelieve in the Trinity.

I have always respected that he never "caved" on the homosexuality issue.

He can't 'change' truths already revealed within the Church. Women Priests is another example. Can't be done even if He wanted to. The Pope is subject to the Church's constant teachings just like any other Catholic.

I would guess that the Apostles never taught heresy, but any pope who endorsed the inquisition endorsed a heresy.

You would guess? Your uncertainty still tells me you can't fully trust a Bible written by fallible men if they can err while writing it. I can since I believe God has made the core of the Church infallible when binding His teachings on them.

And there is no heresy with the idea of an inquisition. The punishments are an act of judgment which any person can error in. However, the inquisitions in themselves still weren't a binding teaching on the entire Church and that is my main point of this discussion.

This was talking about priest who ministered under the Law, when they preached the Law.

I know who it was talking to. I'm making a point that doing something and teaching another are two entirely different concepts when it comes to Christianity. How often have you heard your pastor say He sins. Now how often have you ever heard him endorse that sin. I'm betting never.

Why isn't it easy to understand? If we're to be responsible for it, why would God make it difficult to understand?

He wouldn't if it were all you need. That's my point. But you'd have to have your head in a hole to not realize how complicated the Written Word can be unless you're saying that Biblical scholars who've dedicated years to understanding the language and cultures when interpreting are just ignorant when it all comes so easy for you. I hope not.

Describe what you believe a "sacramental marriage" is, and isn't?

A Sacramental Marriage can only be contracted between two Baptized persons.

I said: "You do not exhibit any humility. You're negatively critical, judgmental per the flesh, basically an unbeliever as far as the ministry of the Holy Spirit. You've already trampled on my pearls several times. You think I would do that again?"

I judge what I deem as truth's and untruths just as you do.

You know I said this because in your critical spirit wanted to "judge" prophetic words of which I would give you no such pleasure.

I've no problem with 'Inspired' prophetic words. Only with how you wish to use them in your favour.

I said that when you compare the words of these apparitions they conflict with the Word of God (that is truth).

And I said they conflict with your understanding of the Written Word. If you're wrong, they're your words and not God's Words.

This is whole point of all of my claims. I'm not slandering John Paul II either. I simply stated that he erred mightily in gathering in prayer in unity with religions of demonic origin.

That's your own opinion. Not mine and it's slander to suggest He made such a grave and sinful error when you can't read His heart, unless of course you don't believe it's sinful.

Why don't you explain what ministry you believe "Protestants" are capable of and are blessed by God in doing? Ministry direct from the Holy Spirit.

Your ministry is not what God intended outside the visible authority of the Church. How He wishes to use your 'ministry' for good would only be to lead you back to the Church. Baby steps. If you remain in pure ignorance, then it's up to God to know why and not me.

Explain this concept.

Ignorance - Invincible and Vincible (This Rock: July/August 1999)

Do you really feel that because I am not Catholic that I am blind?

In some truths yes, in others no.

I've been telling you to receive the Word of God and believe that the Holy Spirit ministers to all believers.

And I've been telling you that I've received the fullness of the Word as so far it's understood.

You say the "p" word again and feel that I am an authority to myself. This is your version of being honest. Who is deceived?

Whoever said the Pope is an Authority to Himself. You're deceived to think otherwise.

That is your belief. The "God man" was difficult for the religious mind to receive. The works said otherwise. Those who had ears for the scriptures about His life received His divinity easily. They say that the Jews primarily related to God as the "Spirit of the Lord", not so much Father. Jesus enabled us to become sons and receive God as our Father. The Elohim was a plural noun. In Genesis it said "Let us..." I'm sure the Bereans had a great time searching the scriptures to find the many confirming Words from the OT.

You used it to confirm how they searched the Scriptures first as proof that this was necessary even today. I'm telling you they still had to have an 'infallible authority' to point them to these verses and interpret for them. The Holy Spirit did the rest where their minds could be opened to understand and comprehend it all.
To suggest that they searched the Scriptures and found proof of the Holy Trinity is ludicrous because there is none unless it's in a very implicit form.

I can enjoy (real) communion with any believer.

Your real communion is grape fruit and crackers. Mine is not.

I've taken Catholic communion, Episcopal communion, non-denominational communion, Assembly of God communion. It's all the same.

You never should have taken Catholic Communion out of respect for our Church you were attending as it's not permitted. Shame on you!!

It's a spiritual meal by the Spirit of God.

And so much more!!!!

If I lead someone to the Lord, I don't need to run them by a church first. I can even let God lead them to where He wants to take them. I can listen to any anointed teaching and not be concerned about where they fellowship. I can gather with a handful or so of believers in someone's home and we can have church anywhere we go and receive directly from God. This is what it means to be in unity with a spiritual body. The spiritual body doesn't have any labels on it. It's free.

There is no such thing as full on unity when praying with one another when having conflicting doctrines of God. It's only an illusion. Show me from your Scriptures that this was ever acceptable.

 

[Alive_Again]

Regarding the Holy Spirit's instruction to line everything up with the Word of God...

First off, the Holy Spirit never said to do this only or you'd be having a heck of a time as I previously stated, comparing with what they taught regarding the Holy Trinity, to the OT Writings for proof.

I've maintained that He is an active partner. He doesn't need someone infallible. If we had that, we wouldn't need to compare "revelation" to the Word. It is exactly because man is fallible, that we compare things with the Word. He has promised to lead us into all truth, so don't imply that He is backing out of the arrangement. I've already quoted the scripture to you.

Peter is basically saying that because they already fully believe in their OT Scriptures, it's more surer to them in case they should ever get suspicious about His and the Apostle's personal testimony regarding Christ.

Is it not really because the scripture is the WORD OF GOD, infallible and never changes within the intent that it was written. There was the "spirit of error" trying to insert false doctrine in the early church. Rather than be "suspicious", it was considered more excellent because it acknowledged that God is always the same and we can rely on His Word.

Peter was Inspired when He wrote this but your line of reasoning implies that He's saying that the Written Word regarding Prophecy was a more 'surer word' than even His own 'Inspired' Writings. Obviously as per usual, you're wrong regarding your interpretation because your fallible sinful mind 'wants' it to help your case thereby twisting what the Inspired Word is actually saying here.

Peter equated Paul's writings with scripture, so it's not just the OT. I'm certainly not saying that. Only that God doesn't contradict Himself. That is the important thing.

"...even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles...which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16

Thirdly, according to you, the Holy Spirit leads you into fully understanding the Written Word of God. Where you 'know' He's pointing you in the right direction.

Often understanding is "formed". We're told to take the Word as a light shining in a dark place. Until it "dawns". Other times, God just turns the light on brightly. Those who are anointed of God to teach preach and if it lines up with what He's really saying, the light shines. The closer you get to God, the more brightly the light shines. Since precept is built upon precept, many things are not readily understood until GOD works the precepts. The one's that HE works are rock solid. The one's that HE builds on are also rock solid. You know by the fruits. The one's you receive as a light in a dark place, you walk out, continuing in the Word until you become free indeed because as you walked, you discovered that His Word is true. Over the year's many things become extremely apparent. To a new believer, you receive the Word and listen to teaching under the anointing. If the Words are Spirit Words, they'll minister life. You always go by the fruits.

The Scriptures cannot be properly expounded by anyone's private spirit, but by the same Spirit they were written in, which is only contained within the Church and not a church of multiple members with multiple interpretations.

They are expounded on by anointed men of God. They are received by the one who believes. When you receive and believe, you produce a fruit. If it's of God, you receive the fruit of the Holy Spirit. If it's partly true, you get a sense that most of what is said is right, but something is amiss. God is good at giving you direction along these lines. If you believe you are infallible, you are proud and your heart condition is not set with the proper humility to receive (and only your mind hears the Word). Believers are told to test ALL words, (that is the fail-safe) because even anointed men of God are imperfect and make mistakes. I haven't heard one yet that didn't (of men on the Earth).

I'm tunnel vision? The Word MUST BE INTERPRETED THEREFORE MAKING YOU INFALLIBLE WHEN DOING SO IF YOU WISH TO BIND YOUR DOCTRINES ON FUTURE CHRISTIANS.

God is well able to give "undigested" spiritual food. Baby Christians receive milk, but even they bear witness as God's children. Those who have full use of their spiritual senses are well able to judge for themselves. They need no interpetation. They receive humbly and not proudly. It's neither a high road, nor a low road. It's a straight path before the Lord. It's the highway of holiness. Fools don't tread on it. No matter how anointed one is, when a little folly enters into the picture, you move to the right or to the left. You can get back on, but no one is perfect.

(Concerning "humble souls")

Christ declares them to be the most acceptable, the first in merit, not highest in authority or dignity either in church or state, as some idle fanatics pretend."

No one would put a child in a position of authority (except before the devil). It is for those who have full use of their spiritual senses that eat solid food. (Not predigested teaching by some "infallible" person (that doesn't exist!).

I said: "It seems as though you believe the Pope is the only one receiving dynamic instruction here on the Earth."

The Pope never has things pop up in His head and say "Hey, I think I'll make this Dogma today." That's not how it works.

That's really how you receive my claim on revelation by the Holy Spirit.
That truly isn't how it works. I didn't think to make these things dogma. I won't say that I don't make mistakes (a high road). I won't deny that God performs His Word in faithfulness (that's a low road).

I said: "They said they never knew the Lord previously, although they went to church in "good faith"."

It's called being poorly catechized or a preference to accept doctrines that more suits their lives like the one on divorce.

I'm talking about people in many Christian denominations who went to church for many years and never committed their lives completely to God, believing the good news about His righteousness and making Him their present day Lord. When you grow up in church, quite often you somehow think you already did this, although each believer should have a bonafide born again experience, whereby Jesus reveals Himself on the inside of you. You hear the good news (Spirit Word) preached to you. You are poor in spirit. He knocks on the door to your heart. You say yes and He comes. in. It's called the "day of salvation". Everyone who goes to Heaven will have had one. (I'm not gloating) I say to all: Don't leave the Earth without it. I couldn't be more serious.

Also, many ministers preach the "dead letter". It might even be scriptural but there is no life in them or they are only preaching out of their heads, often lifeless tradition, instead of the living Word, that divides the soul and spirit. It's not for me to say who has or who hasn't, although the fruits of your life will reflect who you are truly serving.

It has nothing to do with "catechism".

a preference to accept doctrines that more suits their lives like the one on divorce.

You judge with an evil eye. You feel that because "Protestants" as you call them are not in the full graces of God and in unity with the Body of Christ that they are just "accepting doctrines" that are not of God. (You might deny this by rewording it slightly, but the meaning is the same.) It either ministers life or it doesn't. There's a big difference between dry form (even in guitar or synthesizer services) -- it's the fruits inside, and the Spirit Word that ministers life. I won't make the judgment, but everyone "hearing" this word can examine for themselves. Many people are burned out on services that don't minister life. They point to themselves, but really they partake of what they are fed. They wouldn't be there if they didn't want to know God.

The "religious" mind says, I'm a Catholic/member of the "true" church/son of Abraham and the kingdom mind says, "I'm poor in spirit and am hungry for God". When you leave your service, are you full of the life of God? Not just full of communion because Jesus said eating His flesh would give life. We're not saved by communion. It's not a blood transfusion that will sustain us until next week.

God is able to raise up sons of Abraham from the stones. He is wanting someone to worship in Spirit and in truth. If you do, there are fruits. The presence of the Lord, it is refreshing. You hear the Spirit Word preaching that ministers life and righteousness. God speaks to your heart in the service and tunes you up.

I said: "I want to tell you that all of those scripture bits ... I pasted earlier are for EVERY believer today. You didn't have "time" for them. You said: "No thanks"."

I believe in ALL Scripture. Just not what you say they're saying.

The ones that I pasted were relative to our discussion because they demonstrate that in the New Covenant, we receive directly from God. Forget everything you're inclined to think about who misses it, think of the promises. Again, you didn't really see them because you're judging with an evil eye.

Again, you have to know His heart when doing such a thing. Obviously it wasn't to respect the 'evil' untruths written in the Koran. That would be absurd.

Of course. The fact remains that God hates this. I don't judge John Paul's heart. It was so incredibly wrong, and yet he's the infallible one (supposedly). I think that he well knew just how fallible he was.They don't really advertise this event too much because it is so awry. Even many cardinals present were probably shocked to see this happening.

I said: "I'm sure he meant well, but it was EXTREMELY misguided."

I don't believe that's for you to judge.

It's for all of us to judge. We're told in the Word that Christ has no fellowship with Belial. Light has no fellowship with darkness. That is exactly what he attempted. We know he didn't see it that way (obviously). But anyone with spiritual sight sees this. It's completely abhorrent in God's sight. I don't judge him personally, but the deed was shamefully errant. (Moving on...)

The Muslim God is the same as mine since He's the God of Abraham.

That's the theory but that isn't the case. The god of their revelation didn't raise up Jesus from the dead. (They don't believe He was raised up.) That is antichrist. We know that the God of Abraham and Ishmael are the same, but that's not who they're praying to (as much as they think it is). The spirit they're listening to kills God's chosen people and at the head want to destroy both Israel and the United States.

It's worse than the links I posted earlier indicate.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/16_JohnPaulII.pdf

They joined in prayer.

Women Priests is another example. Can't be done even if He wanted to.

That is another area of ignorance in Catholicism. Do you know that there are women apostles? Today even. There were women apostles in the Bible, and they are ministering in power now! Signs and wonders. Many women prophets as well. This has never stopped God.I'll bet there are MANY women called to the 5-fold ministry that are Catholics and they will have to come out in order to fulfill their offices in the open. Did you know that there is no male/female in the Spirit?

I said: "I would guess that the Apostles never taught heresy, but any pope who endorsed the inquisition endorsed a heresy."

You would guess? Your uncertainty still tells me you can't fully trust a Bible written by fallible men if they can err while writing it.

You'd think, but I know man can receive error from deceiving spirits. That's why we rely on the Word and the Holy Spirit (who agree). I've also known apostles who, like all Christians, went for a time into a degree of error. No one is exempt. The writers of the New Testament no doubt sinned and had to learn the ways of the Spirit as baby Christians. The whole church was a baby at first. Fortunately, Jesus walked with the apostles of the Lamb and when they wrote scripture, they did so as the Word of God and are free from error. We know from Peter's example, that no one is above deception, how matter how gifted they are.

I trust the Bible, not men. My trust in not in Paul either, although what made scripture is obviously trustworthy.

However, the inquisitions in themselves still weren't a binding teaching on the entire Church and that is my main point of this discussion.

The inquisitions should have been openly condemned by the Pope, who by the way exercised great influence over kings and emperors. There were many corrupt Popes, and the inquisition is what many non Christians point to when we point to Muslim extremists. Personally, I don't consider the murderers who did the inquisition to have been Christians at all. They may have been at one time, but they went into gross darkness. Their failure to take steps to stop it made them partakers of the evil deeds.

 

[Alive_Again]

How often have you heard your pastor say He sins.

All of the time, just like everyone else. But we walk by faith and we don't walk as though we're sinners. We walk in the righteousness of God, as repentant children.

He wouldn't if it were all you need. That's my point. But you'd have to have your head in a hole to not realize how complicated the Written Word can be unless you're saying that Biblical scholars who've dedicated years to understanding the language and cultures when interpreting are just ignorant when it all comes so easy for you. I hope not.

Reading it we know that fornication is wrong. We were told what it was prior to any question about divorce. We already knew what adultery was. It is good to know that you can step away from an unfaithful partner when their unfaithfulness warrants it. Just like God does us. Although He'll never leave us or forsake us, it is by His grace that we are drawn to Him. That can be removed.

A Sacramental Marriage can only be contracted between two Baptized persons.

Ok. Do you consider two "Protestants" baptized as "Protestants" to be properly baptized?
Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive communion as "Protestants" to receive the blessings of communion as indicated in the Word?
Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive forgiveness by confessing their sins only to Jesus (as "Protestants") to receive the the full restoration of relationship with God as indicated in the Word?

I judge what I deem as truth's and untruths just as you do.

That would be appropriate except for your condemnation of my claims that I receive revelation from God (humbly and not as some final authority). It is a common (but holy) thing in the New Covenant. You make it sound like I'm making myself an authority. Remember I'm just accepting the Word for what it is and not throwing in something else with it. Romans 3

I've no problem with 'Inspired' prophetic words. Only with how you wish to use them in your favour.

Not having heard them why would you have an inclination to say I "use them" in my "favour", as though unrighteously?

Regarding Mary apparitions...

If you're wrong, they're your words and not God's Words.

That's true. Unless, He's speaking. Even if I'm right, it's still not God's Words. It's not about being "right", it's whether or not they line up with the Word of God, which they do not. We always judge EVERYONE's sayings by the revealed Word. We have the Holy Spirit to enable us to do that accurately. Not that people don't make mistakes based on preconceptions. But by the fruits, we'll know if the truth is obtained.

Not mine and it's slander to suggest He made such a grave and sinful error when you can't read His heart, unless of course you don't believe it's sinful.

I'm not reading his heart. I'm judging the fruits of the activities. The words, the actions, the receiving of those in darkness and the implied unity. Everyone's sin is not to gloat over, but it is for our example. It also shows that he was not infallible.

How He wishes to use this ministry for good would only be to lead you back to the Church

That's just it. You don't believe "Protestants" as you call them, have a completely rock-solid righteousness in God who can perform His perfect will, right where they're at, while it's still called today. That's prejudice. It's an evil eye. It was formed by the teachings of your church. It doesn't say this in the Bible. It doesn't say "Catholic" in the Bible and it certainly doesn't say "Protestant". How many groups are there who say they're the only ones who are really walking after God as He really intends.

Catholics
Church of Christ
Seventh Day Adventists
Mormons
Jehovah's Witnesses
(I suspect the Eastern Orthodox)


(Concerning the Bereans):

I'm telling you they still had to have an 'infallible authority' to point them to these verses and interpret for them. The Holy Spirit did the rest where their minds could be opened to understand and comprehend it all.

We aren't given infallible authorities. Everyone makes mistakes. It's foolish to think that they don't. Just watch them for any length of time. You think that Joseph Ratzinger doesn't make mistakes? The Holy Spirit does not require perfection. His servants will make mistakes. He guides them ultimately. To the degree that the minister seeks and hears, will the recipients be blessed. If they don't take time to hear from God, they often are not blessed. If you depend on God to reveal truth, He'll give you a sense when something isn't quite right, and when things are just right, the light is on and the lamp is blazing (if you have ears to hear).

Your real communion is grape fruit and crackers. Mine is not.

You mock Christ and His (true) church by saying so. His true church are a spiritual body of believers in obedience to Him. They may or may not be found in your denomination (or mine). We "do the Word" as commanded, and He comes in and makes it a spiritual meal. His tangible presence is increased and it is very holy. You should watch your mouth about things you don't understand. Invicible or not, I don't believe in this either, when you speak evil of the things of God, it grieves the Holy Spirit. Rather than "judge my fruits", you've made several mentions of "my sinful mind". Do not call unclean what God has cleansed. Do not bring judgment on your life by this careless act. I'm telling you, God takes up for His children. It's one thing to disagree about something and another to render a final judgment on a person. This is different from judging fruits.

There is no such thing as full on unity when praying with one another when having conflicting doctrines of God.

Unity is not really based on doctrine. There will always be disagreements on doctrine. It's about walking in love. Strongholds in the mind by the enemy will remain in some believers because of "religious" systems that do not minister life. But the believers in them, if they hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will have it. God is able to make them stand. God is no respecter of persons. If they believe and desire Jesus to be their Lord, they are the body joined to the Head. That is fully unity, not doctrinal unity.

When the above stated believers who have Jesus as their Lord remember the death of Jesus in the Lord's supper, it is real. God is no respecter of persons. When they ask forgiveness for sins, God forgives and receives them as though they never sinned. That is the good news! He doesn't hold back anything.

There are millions of believers who don't believe in the Catholic Church as the ultimate expression of Christianity. In fact, many consider it to be dead outright. I for one, understand that God is working within it to bring the Lordship of Jesus by relationship. Somewhere within the maze of religious requirements, God ministers and attempts to free them of religious mindsets. It often takes many years to be free from "religious" mindsets that do not minister relationship.

 

[Kepha]

I'm going to answer briefly because this is just draining my time on here answering the same things over and over again.

Regarding the Holy Spirit's instruction to line everything up with the Word of God...

Agreed. But for the umteenth time, the Written Word isn't the only visible foundation from which God's truths are arrived at. You have never proved this. Only your opinion which means didley.

I've maintained that He is an active partner. He doesn't need someone infallible.

Correct, He's an active partner and one is ONLY infallible because He's working through them as the Apostles were.

He has promised to lead us into all truth, so don't imply that He is backing out of the arrangement. I've already quoted the scripture to you.

YOU CANNOT BE LEAD INTO ALL TRUTH IF YOU AND YOUR BROTHERS HAVE NO VISIBLE FOUNDATION TO TELL YOU WHEN YOU'RE MISLEADING YOURSELVES AND WHEN YOU'RE NOT. WHEN YOU INTERPRET AMONGST YOURSELVES YOU HAVE DISSENSION AND THE PROOF IS JUST COUNTING YOUR DENOMINATIONS. PLEASE TELL ME YOU GET THIS ALREADY!!!

And the only quote you gave me was to the Apostles and the Church. Not to individuals.

Is it not really because the scripture is the WORD OF GOD, infallible and never changes within the intent that it was written. There was the "spirit of error" trying to insert false doctrine in the early church. Rather than be "suspicious", it was considered more excellent because it acknowledged that God is always the same and we can rely on His Word.

Peter's Word was the Word of God. To put the OT above the Apostles 'oral' Teachings is just crazy talk.

Often understanding is "formed". We're told to take the Word as a light shining in a dark place. Until it "dawns". Other times, God just turns the light on brightly.

Well I don't care how you say understanding is 'formed'. The bottom line is, when you're teaching, you're teaching 'after' the doctrine has formed in you where you are 100 percent certain about it like you are about all of this 'other' doctrines you're throwing at me.Sola Scripture is the big one to start your error off.

Those who are anointed of God to teach preach and if it lines up with what He's really saying, the light shines.

Listen to you. "If it lines up........"

WHO DECIDES IF IT LINES UP FOR THE REST OF THE FAITHFUL. INDIVIDUALS? Where has there even been an individual Christian in the NT who used the Written Word without a teacher to aid him on? Be specific and give me the chapter and verse please.

The one's that HE works are rock solid. The one's that HE builds on are also rock solid. You know by the fruits. The one's you receive as a light in a dark place, you walk out, continuing in the Word until you become free indeed because as you walked, you discovered that His Word is true.

Already answered in previous posts.

God is well able to give "undigested" spiritual food. Baby Christians receive milk, but even they bear witness as God's children. Those who have full use of their spiritual senses are well able to judge for themselves. They need no interpetation.

Nonsense. Or are you seriously telling me you look to nobody to help you in your interpretation of the Bible. If you answer no, I will not believe you. If you answer yes then according to yourself, you conclude the Word of God isn't as easy where even a child could understand.

They receive humbly and not proudly. It's neither a high road, nor a low road. It's a straight path before the Lord. It's the highway of holiness. Fools don't tread on it. No matter how anointed one is, when a little folly enters into the picture, you move to the right or to the left. You can get back on, but no one is perfect.

Irrelevant since we aren't discussing what GETS us into Heaven but on whether or not the Written Word of God is meant to be privately interpreted and hope you are being lead in the right direction.

That's really how you receive my claim on revelation by the Holy Spirit.
That truly isn't how it works. I didn't think to make these things dogma. I won't say that I don't make mistakes (a high road). I won't deny that God performs His Word in faithfulness (that's a low road).

So again, you've no right to preach and teach possible error in 2000 year old Doctrines concerning Christianity, that even you believe you may have messed up on.

When you grow up in church, quite often you somehow think you already did this, although each believer should have a bonafide born again experience, whereby Jesus reveals Himself on the inside of you.

I disagree that each believer MUST have a bona-fide born again experience. Born again occurs at your Baptism and if you're an infant, you can't experience it yet you can slowly grow in God's Graces. Or are you telling every non Catholic on here that if they haven't experienced it, they aren't Christian?

Also, many ministers preach the "dead letter". It might even be scriptural but there is no life in them or they are only preaching out of their heads, often lifeless tradition, instead of the living Word, that divides the soul and spirit. It's not for me to say who has or who hasn't, although the fruits of your life will reflect who you are truly serving.

Lifeless Tradition? No such thing. And whether it's preached with passion or not, doesn't negate the fact that it's still the Word of God.

You judge with an evil eye. You feel that because "Protestants" as you call them are not in the full graces of God and in unity with the Body of Christ that they are just "accepting doctrines" that are not of God.

The Church guided by the Holy Spirit judges you in error with certain doctrines, not me at all. I'm only passing the information along.

(You might deny this by rewording it slightly, but the meaning is the same.) It either ministers life or it doesn't. There's a big difference between dry form (even in guitar or synthesizer services) -- it's the fruits in inside, and the Spirit Word that ministers life. I won't make the judgment, but everyone "hearing" this word can examine for themselves.

You've made judgment by stating because I haven't come to the same conclusion as you, I'm in error. That's your problem. You decide. Then Bible believing Billy down the street decides and so on and so on. All individuals thinking the Holy Spirit is leading them into the truth. It's a format NEVER shown in the NT. So either show me or stop preaching this doctrine of men.

The "religious" mind says, I'm a Catholic/member of the "true" church/son of Abraham and the kingdom mind says, "I'm poor in spirit and am hungry for God".

I will not disagree if you're saying there's Catholics by name only in the Church. They will receive their judgment when all is said and done.

Not just full of communion because Jesus said eating His flesh would give life.

Christ did say that. Even a child could understand this.

We're not saved by communion.

Jesus says we are.

It's not a blood transfusion that will sustain us until next week.

It's Spiritual food, not dead flesh.

God is able to raise up sons of Abraham from the stones. He is wanting someone to worship in Spirit and in truth.

Are you worshiping in the Spirit of Truth with an Adventist? Yes or no? And don't give me any nonsense that believing in Christ is enough to be called Truth. The truth of Christ is all things dealing with Truth. Such as if the Sabbath is still binding on us. Or if Hell is eternal.

I said: "I want to tell you that all of those scripture bits ... I pasted earlier are for EVERY believer today. You didn't have "time" for them. You said: "No thanks"."
The ones that I pasted were relative to our discussion because they demonstrate that in the New Covenant, we receive directly from God. Forget everything you're inclined to think about who misses it, think of the promises. Again, you didn't really see them because you're judging with an evil eye.

No, the ones you were showing me said nothing of the sort and because I didn't agree with you, I'm judging with an evil eye lol. That's your infallible interpretive skills at work again and I reject them all since they are built upon error and not truth.

Of course. The fact remains that God hates this. I don't judge John Paul's heart. It was so incredibly wrong, and yet he's the infallible one (supposedly).

A Pope is not infallible on everything they say or do. You know this.

I think that he well knew just how fallible he was.They don't really advertise this event too much because it is so awry. Even many cardinals present were probably shocked to see this happening.

I've heard this a long time ago and it's no secret that He kissed the Koran. But intentionally not advertising it? Probably because there isn't enough info about it or that it's very easy to misinterpret as you're doing right now.

I said: "I'm sure he meant well, but it was EXTREMELY misguided."

Personally, I don't think so. But that's my own opinion as you can have yours. But yours needs to 'see' his heart to make an opinion. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because we know He doesnt' believe the Koran is Inspired.

It's for all of us to judge. We're told in the Word that Christ has no fellowship with Belial.

No He doesn't. And the Pope wasn't praying to Balial either. Again, you have to read His heart to know this with certainty.

Light has no fellowship with darkness. That is exactly what he attempted. We know he didn't see it that way (obviously). But anyone with spiritual sight sees this.

Just as we believe the Spirit is working in protestantism to bring them to the fullness of the truth, it's the same regarding other religions.

John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 29), Dec. 7, 1990: "The Church&#8217;s relationship with other religions is dictated by a twofold respect: &#8216;Respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, [FONT=Book Antiqua,Book Antiqua][FONT=Book Antiqua,Book Antiqua]and respect for the action of the Spirit in man[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Book Antiqua,Book Antiqua][FONT=Book Antiqua,Book Antiqua].&#8217;[/FONT][/FONT]

It's completely abhorrent in God's sight. I don't judge him personally, but the deed was shamefully errant. (Moving on...)

Another judgment call by you.

The spirit they're listening to kills God's chosen people and at the head want to destroy both Israel and the United States.

Still applies to the Jews. Their God only saves them. Their God doesn't have a son who was raised up after three days. Your conclusion, the Jewish God isn't the same as the Christians God because they have a distorted view of Him.

That is another area of ignorance in Catholicism. Do you know that there are women apostles? Today even. There were women apostles in the Bible, and they are ministering in power now!

No, there were never women Apostles in the NT on equal levels of ministries as the Apostles of Christ. As a matter of fact, women back then were told to be silent in Church.

Signs and wonders. Many women prophets as well. This has never stopped God.

Why do you continue to spout out the signs and wonders rhetoric unless you can prove it scientifically.

Here are some of mine:

Miracles

Eucharistic Miracles of the World - International Vatican Exhibition

CNS STORY: Woman whose healing is 67th Lourdes miracle tells her story

Fortunately, Jesus walked with the apostles of the Lamb and when they wrote scripture, they did so as the Word of God and are free from error. We know from Peter's example, that no one is above deception, how matter how gifted they are.

The Holy Spirit cannot help them never to be deceived. Let me ask you but how are you certain that the NT is even God's word if the Apostles were able to teach error from time to time. My infallible Church says it is the Word of God. Where's your source? Do you have an inspired table of contents I'm unaware about?

 

[Kepha]

I trust the Bible, not men.

Good for you. Personally, I trust the Holy Spirit to lead men infallibly when teaching as with the NT.

My trust in not in Paul either, although what made scripture is obviously trustworthy.

Says who?

The inquisitions should have been openly condemned by the Pope, who by the way exercised great influence over kings and emperors.

The inquisitions deserves a thread on their own and it's too much to get into right now. If you wish to start a thread about it, I'm certain someone will entertain you.

There were many corrupt Popes

I'm certain there were. I never stated otherwise.

Although He'll never leave us or forsake us, it is by His grace that we are drawn to Him. That can be removed.

So unlike many on here, you're not an OSAS believer? Shouldn't you be trying to correct your brethren then?

Ok. Do you consider two "Protestants" baptized as "Protestants" to be properly baptized?

If Baptised with water using the Trinitarian forumula then yes, I do.

Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive communion as "Protestants" to receive the blessings of communion as indicated in the Word?

Depends on who's Communion we're talking about. If you mean the Catholic one, then no. If you mean yours you may get 'certain' kinds of Graces but not the kind with the 'real' Eucharist.

Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive forgiveness by confessing their sins only to Jesus (as "Protestants") to receive the the full restoration of relationship with God as indicated in the Word?

Depends on their ignorance at the state of their death.

That would be appropriate except for your condemnation of my claims that I receive revelation from God (humbly and not as some final authority).

You've been preaching on here like some authority figure for days now. All I'm hearing is what we're doing wrong, what you're doing right, etc. etc. Then you fall back on "Hey, I'm only saying what the Word is saying. Give me a break man.

You make it sound like I'm making myself an authority. Remember I'm just accepting the Word for what it is and not throwing in something else with it. Romans 3

lol told ya.

Regarding Mary apparitions...
We always judge EVERYONE's sayings by the revealed Word. We have the Holy Spirit to enable us to do that accurately.

Your revealed Word and mine are two different things. And stop telling me whether they line up to your limited Written Word expressed through your limited mind and sinful nature. I do not take you as a final interpretation fortunately. And the Marian Apparitions do not contradict the Written Word as the Church interprets.

Not that people don't make mistakes based on preconceptions. But by the fruits, we'll know if the truth is obtained.

Already answered.

That's just it. You don't believe "Protestants" as you call them, have a completely rock-solid righteousness in God who can perform His perfect will, right where they're at, while it's still called today.

When they reject the Church of God and His full word, the no.....I don't.

That's prejudice. It's an evil eye. It was formed by the teachings of your church. It doesn't say this in the Bible. It doesn't say "Catholic" in the Bible and it certainly doesn't say "Protestant". How many groups are there who say they're the only ones who are really walking after God as He really intends.

There was only one Universal Church in the Bible. Not thousands teaching different doctrines of men.

(Concerning the Bereans): We aren't given infallible authorities.

Then the Apostles were useless.

Everyone makes mistakes.

Throw your Bible away. According to you, it must have mistakes in it since it's written down and taught by men who can make mistakes.

It's foolish to think that they don't.

It's foolish to believe God can't make men Inspired during times of teaching His Word yet believe the Bible is Inspired.

Just watch them for any length of time. You think that Joseph Ratzinger doesn't make mistakes?

I'm sure He does.

The Holy Spirit does not require perfection. His servants will make mistakes.

The Holy Spirit limits men from error when binding truths on the Church.

He guides them ultimately.

You can't be guided ultimately without a visible infallible voice to guide the faithful and keep them as one Flock. Prove to me that your protestant denominations are becoming one in faith slowly. Impossible.

You mock Christ and His (true) church by saying so.

I would never mock Christ and His Catholic Church.

Unity is not really based on doctrine.

If you can't prove to me using your NT that unity in the Christian Church didn't depend on their Doctrines then I suggest just keep quiet because it's really annoying you talk without backing it up.

There will always be disagreements on doctrine.

Only in protestantism.

But the believers in them, if they hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will have it. God is able to make them stand. God is no respecter of persons. If they believe and desire Jesus to be their Lord, they are the body joined to the Head. That is fully unity, not doctrinal unity.

Doctrinal unity Jesus Christ died for our sins. You saying that isn't important. Do you have a list in your Bible of the essential and non essential doctrines of Christ that we don't have. I'm eager to read them.

When the above stated believers who have Jesus as their Lord remember the death of Jesus in the Lord's supper, it is real. God is no respecter of persons. When they ask forgiveness for sins, God forgives and receives them as though they never sinned. That is the good news! He doesn't hold back anything.

That's your watered down belief of the message of Christianity and not mine.

Somewhere within the maze of religious requirements, God ministers and attempts to free them of religious mindsets.

Your non denominational mind is a new invention that's under 40 years old. I see you guys everywhere now. Just more proof of the errors of Protestantism at work.

 

[Alive_Again]

Let's confine our discussion to BELIEVERS. They're the ones who are in covenant with God. There are NO distinctions.

...for the umteenth time, the Written Word isn't the only visible foundation from which God's truths are arrived at. You have never proved this. Only your opinion which means didley.

For the last time, the Word isn't the only foundation. The Spirit and the Word. They both agree.

He's an active partner and one is ONLY infallible because He's working through them as the Apostles were.

There's something you should know. God doesn't require infallibility to speak through them. When He speaks through someone today to deliver a word of prophecy, it is true as though Jesus were standing right there. He is infallible. The prophet is not. He (the prophet) wasn't in the Old Testament. He wasn't in the New Testament. He's not today. Prophets of old all made mistakes. Today's prophets make mistakes. That is why: We judge all words by what has been revealed already, with the Holy Spirit, who promised to lead us into all truth.

1) Do you believe He leads ALL believers who believe and yield to Him with pure truth? Do you?

Don't tell me about Catholics or Protestants. He doesn't see them that way. That is a cop out. ALL believers who incline, listen, and obey the Word in their heart.

YOU CANNOT BE LEAD INTO ALL TRUTH IF YOU AND YOUR BROTHERS HAVE NO VISIBLE FOUNDATIONTO TELL YOU WHEN YOU'RE MISLEADING YOURSELVES AND WHEN YOU'RE NOT.

2) You judge whether or not the Holy Spirit can fulfill His ministry within the "BELIEVER" by some "foundation" some other believers have. He works on His own primarily and does not rely on man. He uses them. He uses BELIEVERS who are yielded. When they are, they lead us into truth. As I have said, man is fallible. EVERY MAN. Don't preach some kind of elitist nonsense about "my group", "Protestants", or "Catholics". What others do are irrelevant. He ministers to the BELIEVER. It is not depending on anyone else. The HOLY SPIRIT lays the foundation for ALL BELIEVERS.

3) BELIEVERS bear witness to the truth when the Holy Spirit shines the light of truth. It doesn't matter what any leaders say or do.

WHEN YOU INTERPRET AMONGST YOURSELVES YOU HAVE DISSENSION AND THE PROOF IS JUST COUNTING YOUR DENOMINATIONS. PLEASE TELL ME YOU GET THIS ALREADY!!!

Why don't we stop pointing to other people? You're only distracting the issue. The discussion is about the BELIEVER. That's who the covenant is to.

And the only quote you gave me was to the Apostles and the Church. Not to individuals.

The scriptures I gave you where to ALL BELIEVERS. If you don't believe this, then it likely means you are not partaking of it. That would no doubt be why you want to point to (any) man.

To put the OT above the Apostles 'oral' Teachings is just crazy talk.

I'm not doing that. We were talking about the Bereans. We're not talking about Peter.

Sola Scripture is the big one to start your error off.

The Word AND the Spirit.

I said: "Those who are anointed of God to teach, preach, and if it lines up with what He's really saying, the light shines."

Listen to you. "If it lines up........"

That's because even the anointed of God makes mistakes. The anointed of God typically say to trust Jesus only. Check it out with the Word. "If it lines up." That's the check God Himself pointed out that Christians should do. He has given us His Spirit. (Forget any errors you believe anyone made.) Believe the Word, not mistakes someone made. The Word is true! Are you a BELIEVER? Let's agree with the Word then.

WHO DECIDES IF IT LINES UP FOR THE REST OF THE FAITHFUL. INDIVIDUALS?

Ultimately, they will. Their spirits will have to bear witness. If they are a young Christian, God will impress upon them to receive the scripture as the Word of God. The Holy Spirit will work in the believer to lay precept upon precept. The part they receive, will be at first foundational. Which is what we're talking about here. The foundational teaching of the Word of God and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Why is that a problem?

I said: "Those who have full use of their spiritual senses are well able to judge for themselves. They need no interpetation."

Nonsense. Or are you seriously telling me you look to nobody to help you in your interpretation of the Bible. If you answer no, I will not believe you. If you answer yes then according to yourself, you conclude the Word of God isn't as easy where even a child could understand.

We all receive teaching. God put teachers in the body. But a Christian who is able to judge good from evil, by reason of his (spiritual) senses, can judge for himself. That's not saying that he won't be taught. But he'll judge for himself. Because everywhere you go, someone is misunderstanding some part of the Word. As you say, that is why we have denominations.

Let me repeat. The denominations are not the church. The Church is the spiritual Body of Christ, a body of believers who are taking instruction from the Head by means of the Holy Spirit. They exist in denominations. The denomination, nor the building are the Church. The entire church has the ability to be mislead if they do not adhere to the instruction of the Head. The Church is the family of God. God wants relationship, not religion. Sit down, stand up, kneel down, genuflect, that's immaterial. You can get rid of the candles, holy water, statues, vestments, bells and smells, and what you have left will tell you if you are real. It comes down to you and the Spirit of God at work on the Earth. Does He work in your service? Does He manifest? Do people come and enter into covenant with God at your church? Do they get healed? Are they delivered from evil spirits? Are they filled with the Holy Spirit? If not, He does not agree with your program. Do the gifts of the Spirit manifest in your local body? If so, then you are in a real body of believers, that obey the instructions of the Head.

I said: "It's a straight path before the Lord. It's the highway of holiness."

Irrelevant since we aren't discussing what GETS us into Heaven but on whether or not the Written Word of God is meant to be privately interpreted and hope you are being lead in the right direction.

I'm not talking about Heaven. I'm talking about your walk with God on earth. It's the highway of holiness. It is the narrow way.

So again, you've no right to preach and teach possible error in 2000 year old Doctrines concerning Christianity, that even you believe you may have messed up on.

The doctrine in question is whether or not God's Word is true? Whether or not you can take it at face value? The other one now, is whether or not the Holy Spirit does what the Gospel of John says He will do for ALL BELIEVERS?

I disagree that each believer MUST have a bona-fide born again experience. Born again occurs at your Baptism and if you're an infant, you can't experience it yet you can slowly grow in God's Graces. Or are you telling every non Catholic on here that if they haven't experienced it, they aren't Christian?

Jesus said you must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. Does that leave room for contradiction? Is it my doctrine? Don't stop there... Babies can't make that choice. You can't make it for them.

The good news for all is, "You can have an experience where Jesus manifests Himself on the inside." A born again experience. Don't stop there either. You can be filled with the Holy Spirit. You can prophesy, dream dreams, and have visions. You can speak with new tongues. The Good Shepherd's voice can be heard.

Lifeless Tradition? No such thing. And whether it's preached with passion or not, doesn't negate the fact that it's still the Word of God.

Passion has nothing to do with life. The Spirit Word produces life, not passion. Let each one judge his own services for himself.

I said; "it's the fruits in inside, and the Spirit Word that ministers life. I won't make the judgment, but everyone "hearing" this word can examine for themselves."

You've made judgment by stating because I haven't come to the same conclusion as you, I'm in error. That's your problem. You decide.

I haven't judged anyone. I said YOU make your own judgment.

individuals thinking the Holy Spirit is leading them into the truth. It's a format NEVER shown in the NT. So either show me or stop preaching this doctrine of men.

I pasted those scriptures to you already regarding the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the BELIEVER.

I said: "Not just full of communion because Jesus said eating His flesh would give life". "We're not saved by communion."

Christ did say that. Even a child could understand this.
Jesus says we are.

To know God is life. To be born again is to recieve the nature of eternal life. To love the brethren is to know you have eternal life. To abide "in Him" to to have life. To believe in Him is to have life. To obey Him is to have life. Taking communion has its place in the life of a BELIEVER (as it truly states), but it does not take the place of knowing Him, being born again, walking in love, abiding in Him, or believing and obeying Him. Otherwise, you just go through the motions.

 

[Alive_Again]

Are you worshiping in the Spirit of Truth with an Adventist? Yes or no?

That depends on him. You're not going to Hell for fellowshipping with the Adventists. I don't agree with them. I knew one, and he was a sincere BELIEVER. That's the key. Are you a BELIEVER? Not, are you an Adventist?

Adventists believe they fulfill the Sabbath on Saturday.

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Romans 14:1-5

That's how I look at denominations that preach things outside of the Word. Some things won't hinder God from still working with you, even if they are unprofitable by those "weak" in the faith (grace).

I said: "I want to tell you that all of those scripture bits ... I pasted earlier are for EVERY believer today...you didn't really see them because you're judging with an evil eye."

No, the ones you were showing me said nothing of the sort and because I didn't agree with you, I'm judging with an evil eye lol.

If the Holy Spirit isn't working these things in your life, then Jesus isn't your Lord. He said He would. For those others who read. If you want Him to. He will!

Not a laughing matter. Let me give you some good news that's for you today...

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:45

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Cor 2:12

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 16:13-15

That's your infallible interpretive skills at work again and I reject them all since they are built upon error and not truth.

I wouldn't lol too hard. In fact, you've given "lolling" a bad name and assocation. Like all of us, you're going to appear before the judgment seat of Christ and answer for what He died to provide you. I would make it your business to meditate and acknowledge them.

A Pope is not infallible on everything they say or do. You know this.

We all make mistakes and sin. What it shows is that a leader with a reputation for infallibility (not by his deeds, but by tradition) was in gross darkness.

...He kissed the Koran.... or that it's very easy to misinterpret as you're doing right now.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
2 John 1:9-11

The Koran was inspired by demons. To kiss the book is more than wishing someone well. It symbolizes a respect for what it contains. Whether or not he believes in it or not. The Assisi thing was unfortunate. I read what he wrote to the attendees and his mind was basically right. But, it was not in line with the Word.

And the Pope wasn't praying to Balial either. Again, you have to read His heart to know this with certainty.

I'm not advocating that he did. I don't believe he did. His writings only acknowledged the Holy Spirit. If that were all, that would not have been so bad. But to made the acknowledements that he made...

"We shall go from here to our separate places of prayer. Each religion will have the time and opportunity to express itself in its own traditional rite. Then from these separate places of prayer, we will walk in silence towards the lower Square of Saint Francis. Once gathered in the Square, again each religion will be able to present its own prayer, one after the other."

Their prayers go out to the spirits that are of them. There was even a Shaman. Their "prayers" loosed evil spirits. I don't need to read his heart to know and understand this. It's really somewhat distasteful to go on about it, because I respect a lot of what he was about. But in this case, all Christians can look at this and purpose in their heart not to have any association with activities of this nature. They didn't need to pronounce "Belial". The spirit of antichrist (or Belial/Baal) was at work. He allowed others to do so.

John Paul II, ...Respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, and respect for the action of the Spirit in man.&#8217;

That seems fine and all, but we're not supposed to recognize "other gods". So the ideal was respectful, but the practice was hideous.

Their God only saves them. Their God doesn't have a son who was raised up after three days. Your conclusion, the Jewish God isn't the same as the Christians God because they have a distorted view of Him.

We're calling on Jehovah God. The Jews actually have a covenant that offers Jesus. Whether they accept Him or not, God is still faithful to them. They are the same because the Old Covenant is the same God as the new. The "god" of the Koran is a devil. It denies the Bible. They would say that the Bible denies the Koran. It's not the same.

... signs and wonders rhetoric unless you can prove it scientifically.

That's not the way that works. An evil generation seeks a sign. God doesn't flaunt Himself. You've got to believe God for yourself. He will respond!

Stigmata aren't necessarily miracles either. Communion related "miracles" are not what is preached in the New Testament.

My infallible Church says it is the Word of God. Where's your source? Do you have an inspired table of contents I'm unaware about?

If you're referring to your "infallible" denomination, it has made more errors than you can count. It's own body acknowledges them themselves. It's pretty obvious when man's ugly head sticks up or when the enemy intrudes and persecutes those who aren't of it's "fold" by torturing and killing them.

"There were many corrupt Popes"

----I'm certain there were. I never stated otherwise.

I'm sure they were "infallible". Doesn't that alone just shout at you that man at every level is prone to make errors and are fallible.

So unlike many on here, you're not an OSAS believer? Shouldn't you be trying to correct your brethren then?

We've already had this discussion on another thread.

I said: "Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive forgiveness by confessing their sins only to Jesus (as "Protestants") to receive the the full restoration of relationship with God as indicated in the Word?"

Depends on their ignorance at the state of their death.

When you ask God to forgive you of your sins, at that moment you are forgiven -- in entirety, not just at your death. It's not about your ignorance, it's about your knowledge. Your knowledge of the covenant of God to the BELIEVER.

All I'm hearing is what we're doing wrong, what you're doing right, etc. etc.

Is that really all you're hearing? I'm saying the the church is not denominations. It's believers. Man is fallible. God speaks today. God's Word is true. If you hear that "you're wrong" because you're preaching something else, why am I at fault?

Then you fall back on "Hey, I'm only saying what the Word is saying. Give me a break man.

I am. God's Word is true. Romans 3 -- all has sinned. You added the oral thing. God leads the BELIEVER into all truth today. You seem to indicate that that promise was only made to the Apostles. It's actually an important part of the good news.

"You make it sound like I'm making myself an authority. Remember I'm just accepting the Word for what it is and not throwing in something else with it. Romans 3"

lol told ya.

Keep laughing. I'm maintaining my original position. Your tradition adds to it. Your authority for believing that is the magisterium, who may or may not even be born again.

And stop telling me whether they line up to
your limited Written Word
expressed through your limited mind and sinful nature.

It's the Word and the Spirit. It's not limited. It's the covenant. If you reject that in favor of an alternative, it's your future. It's your fruits.

...the Marian Apparitions do not contradict the Written Word as the Church interprets.

Want to look at some of those?

I said: "That's just it. You don't believe "Protestants" as you call them, have a completely rock-solid righteousness in God who can perform His perfect will, right where they're at, while it's still called today."

When they reject the Church of God and His full word, the no.....I don't.

That means you don't credit the Lord for cleansing that part of the church and giving them pure robes of righteousness. You don't credit them for being able to walk in the perfect will of God right where they are, without any further qualifications than their submission and obedience.

"(Concerning the Bereans): We aren't given infallible authorities."

<Then the Apostles were useless.

That's ridiculous. The foundational precept: Men are fallible and make mistakes. The apostles were fallible and made mistakes. God chose them anyway to deliver the oracles of the New Testament. In that capacity, they delivered the true Word of God. The men of God today are fallible and make mistakes. There still are church planters, prophets, signs and wonders, healings, people getting filled as in the day of Pentecost. In spite of that, they make mistakes and God uses them. God Himself advises the church to judge everything by the Word and Spirit. Would He ask us something we're not capable of doing? It implies we'll make mistakes because He tells us to do it.

Prove to me that your protestant denominations are becoming one in faith slowly. Impossible.

We're not talking about denominations. We're talking about the Spirit led church that is the body of Christ -- the BELIEVER. God is making them one.

If you can't prove to me using your NT that unity in the Christian Church didn't depend on their Doctrines then I suggest just keep quiet because it's really annoying you talk without backing it up.

The unity was in the Spirit. Obviously we are exhorted to obey the Word of God. There were divisions reported. They were not of God. They happened even back then. There will always be disagreements on doctrine.

Do you have a list in your Bible of the essential and non essential doctrines of Christ that we don't have. I'm eager to read them.

It's not for me to say. Paul told believers that they returned to the weak and beggarly elements by observing (holy) days and times. He also told one group not to judge them who chose to observe days because God was able to make them stand. So we do have some doctrines that aren't absolutely essential to walking in love. We can receive those who are weak in faith and observe (holy) days and still walk in love. It's the walking in love part we'll be judged on. God already said there would always be doctrinal divisions (present day speaking).

I said: When they ask forgiveness for sins, God forgives and receives them as though they never sinned.
I said: That is the good news! He doesn't hold back anything.

That's your watered down belief of the message of Christianity and not mine.

That's why yours is not the good news.

Your non denominational mind is a new invention that's under 40 years old. I see you guys everywhere now. Just more proof of the errors of Protestantism at work.

Denominations seem to have been originated around 300 AD. Before it was just "the church at...". God is non denominational. There are no denominations in Heaven. He makes absolutely no distinctions.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Acts 10:34-35

This is all good news! It's about BELIEVERS! Obey the Word in your heart. It will match the Word in the Bible. You will make mistakes, but if you walk in love, you'll walk in the light. You'll bear abundant fruits when you walk according to the Word and Spirit. You'll have a New Covenant church. It will resemble the Book of Acts. God never changed. He still confirms His Word with signs following. Don't accept anything less than a personal born again experience. You may have already had one. Either way, Jesus will manifest Himself to you personally, by His Spirit and do what He said 2000 years ago.

 

[Kepha]

That depends on him. You're not going to Hell for fellowshipping with the Adventists. I don't agree with them. I knew one, and he was a sincere BELIEVER. That's the key. Are you a BELIEVER? Not, are you an Adventist?

The Spirit of Truth reveals ALL truths. Not heresy. You cannot be of one faith with an adventist anymore than I can with you. You're diluting the faith of Christ's church to a simple formula of "believe and be saved" making all the works of the Apostles, to stamp out heresy go in vain. To believe means to obey. To obey means to listen to the teachings of Christ. To listen to the teachings of Christ means to be UNIFIED in one faith.

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."
John 17:21-23

Adventists believe they fulfill the Sabbath on Saturday.

They also believe Hell isn't eternal which is a pretty big heresy.

"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Romans 14:1-5

This is talking about being charitable to new converts who had been Jews and still weak in their faith regarding eating clean and unclean foods, days of fastings or feasts regarding the Law of Moses. It's not saying one can't eat unclean meats either which was actually a Doctrine where it was now acceptable in the Christian faith. It also isn't meaning for them to remain in their ways and preach that unclean meats are bad to the rest of the faithful the way the adventists preach the Sabbath is necessary. It has to do with patience and allowing them time to come to be comfortable with these new teachings of Christianity where it's more of a sin to go against their conscience in these circumstances.

Take the necessity of circumcision for a Gentile to be saved in Acts for instance. This was highly debated and finally settled at the First Council of Jerusalem. It wasn't a simple gesture of eating clean meats as to not scandalize the converts but a Doctrine binding on all Christians where 'real' dissension was taking place unless something was done about it.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment." 1Corinthians 1:10

That's how I look at denominations that preach things outside of the Word. Some things won't hinder God from still working with you, even if they are unprofitable by those "weak" in the faith (grace).

The Adventists aren't 'weak' in their faith. They've created an entire new Christian church preaching doctrines of men concerning the sabbath and are strongly into it. If these 'weak' new converts from your example were preaching that 'unclean' foods were not for Christians then that would be heresy because it was untrue and wouldn't be tolerated by the Apostles. All that was about was dealing with their 'own' consciences because they had a tough time getting used to the idea of eating unclean meats. Two entirely different matters.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:45

Yes and through the Catholic Church this was made possible.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Cor 2:12

Again, the Word is nurtured in the Church and we know only because of Her as She is fully guided by the Holy Spirit.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come. He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 16:13-15

You interpret with a sola Scripture mind to think it's talking about individuals here when it's talking about the core of the Church.

I wouldn't lol too hard. In fact, you've given "lolling" a bad name and assocation. Like all of us, you're going to appear before the judgment seat of Christ and answer for what He died to provide you. I would make it your business to meditate and acknowledge them.

As will you, when you have abused the Word of God to fit your needs, blasphemed the Mother of Our Lord and even His Church on earth.

We all make mistakes and sin. What it shows is that a leader with a reputation for infallibility (not by his deeds, but by tradition) was in gross darkness.

No, what it shows is that infallibility and impeccability are two different things.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
2 John 1:9-11

There are still seeds of truth in most religions.

The Koran was inspired by demons. To kiss the book is more than wishing someone well. It symbolizes a respect for what it contains. Whether or not he believes in it or not. The Assisi thing was unfortunate. I read what he wrote to the attendees and his mind was basically right. But, it was not in line with the Word.

You're reading His heart again and what He meant when He 'kissed' the book.

"We shall go from here to our separate places of prayer. Each religion will have the time and opportunity to express itself in its own traditional rite. Then from these separate places of prayer, we will walk in silence towards the lower Square of Saint Francis. Once gathered in the Square, again each religion will be able to present its own prayer, one after the other."

Nothing there about endorsing their erroneous doctrines in anything you've highlighted. That's wishful thinking my man.

Their prayers go out to the spirits that are of them. There was even a Shaman. Their "prayers" loosed evil spirits. I don't need to read his heart to know and understand this.

You do when you're interpreting His actions.

That seems fine and all, but we're not supposed to recognize "other gods". So the ideal was respectful, but the practice was hideous.

He never recognized other Gods as truth. If so, show me.

We're calling on Jehovah God. The Jews actually have a covenant that offers Jesus. Whether they accept Him or not, God is still faithful to them. They are the same because the Old Covenant is the same God as the new. The "god" of the Koran is a devil. It denies the Bible. They would say that the Bible denies the Koran. It's not the same.

Irrelevant. You started up by saying it's because they didn't believe in this and that as to why it's not the same God even if they worship the God of Abraham. The Jews do not confess Jesus to be the Lord and Savior of all humanity nor do they recognize the NT canon. They reject half of our Bibles. Now you either concede to the truth that the Muslims worship our God yet in a perverse way or if they don't, neither do the Jews since they likewise perverted His Word.

That's not the way that works. An evil generation seeks a sign. God doesn't flaunt Himself. You've got to believe God for yourself. He will respond!

Here you are ranting and raving about these signs and wonders then you keep silent when I ask you for proof. Keep quiet if you can't back up your 'proofs'.

Stigmata aren't necessarily miracles either. Communion related "miracles" are not what is preached in the New Testament.

The Stigmata that smell of perfume are. Communion that back up the truth regarding the Holy Eucharist are. Miracles that back up a Dogma of the faith (Immaculate Conception), are.

If you're referring to your "infallible" denomination, it has made more errors than you can count. It's own body acknowledges them themselves. It's pretty obvious when man's ugly head sticks up or when the enemy intrudes and persecutes those who aren't of it's "fold" by torturing and killing them.

Errors regarding sin is one thing. Errors when binding Doctrines on the faith is another.

"There were many corrupt Popes"
I'm sure they were "infallible". Doesn't that alone just shout at you that man at every level is prone to make errors and are fallible.

No, why would a man who sins scream that He can't be infallible.

We've already had this discussion on another thread.

So you've concluded they are ignorant since they can't come to see something a child could see and that you can see from the Written Word?

I said: "Do you consider two "Protestants" who receive forgiveness by confessing their sins only to Jesus (as "Protestants") to receive the the full restoration of relationship with God as indicated in the Word?"
When you ask God to forgive you of your sins, at that moment you are forgiven -- in entirety, not just at your death. It's not about your ignorance, it's about your knowledge. Your knowledge of the covenant of God to the BELIEVER.

Ignorance of the Truth can save you, unless it's Written in your heart.

Is that really all you're hearing? I'm saying the the church is not denominations. It's believers. Man is fallible. God speaks today. God's Word is true. If you hear that "you're wrong" because you're preaching something else, why am I at fault?

It's your faulty interpretation, your fault.

I am. God's Word is true. Romans 3 -- all has sinned. You added the oral thing. God leads the BELIEVER into all truth today. You seem to indicate that that promise was only made to the Apostles. It's actually an important part of the good news.

I didn't add anything. You reject the Oral Word of God. By doing so you're adding to the Word of God by suggesting it's wrongful to do so.

"You make it sound like I'm making myself an authority. Remember I'm just accepting the Word for what it is and not throwing in something else with it. Romans 3"

You do not take verses like Genesis and Luke that helps understand Mother Mary's role in the Church. By doing this, you misinterpret Romans 3. I've said this like 10 times already.

Keep laughing. I'm maintaining my original position. Your tradition adds to it. Your authority for believing that is the magisterium, who may or may not even be born again.

You reject the Oral Traditions of the Apostles and add to the Word of God by doing so.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

It's the Word and the Spirit. It's not limited. It's the covenant. If you reject that in favor of an alternative, it's your future. It's your fruits.
Want to look at some of those?

You're right. It's not limited yet you continue to do limit it.

I said: "That's just it. You don't believe "Protestants" as you call them, have a completely rock-solid righteousness in God who can perform His perfect will, right where they're at, while it's still called today."

That means you don't credit the Lord for cleansing that part of the church and giving them pure robes of righteousness. You don't credit them for being able to walk in the perfect will of God right where they are, without any further qualifications than their submission and obedience.

I credit the Lord for remaining with His Church. Just not your man made idea of a church.

"(Concerning the Bereans): We aren't given infallible authorities."
That's ridiculous. The foundational precept: Men are fallible and make mistakes. The apostles were fallible and made mistakes. God chose them anyway to deliver the oracles of the New Testament. In that capacity, they delivered the true Word of God. The men of God today are fallible and make mistakes. There still are church planters, prophets, signs and wonders, healings, people getting filled as in the day of Pentecost. In spite of that, they make mistakes and God uses them. God Himself advises the church to judge everything by the Word and Spirit. Would He ask us something we're not capable of doing? It implies we'll make mistakes because He tells us to do it.

Then I'll ask this once more. Why are you trusting in the NT if you believe the men could have made mistakes while writing it down.

 

[Kepha]

We're not talking about denominations. We're talking about the Spirit led church that is the body of Christ -- the BELIEVER. God is making them one.

No, you're saying that, not I.

The unity was in the Spirit. Obviously we are exhorted to obey the Word of God. There were divisions reported. They were not of God. They happened even back then. There will always be disagreements on doctrine.

And they were always settled. Show me otherwise.

It's not for me to say. Paul told believers that they returned to the weak and beggarly elements by observing (holy) days and times. He also told one group not to judge them who chose to observe days because God was able to make them stand. So we do have some doctrines that aren't absolutely essential to walking in love.

It's not for you to say? Then shouldn't the Word of God tell us something so important? And nowhere does it say that those observing the Sabbath days were allowed to preach it to be a doctrine for all Christians either.

We can receive those who are weak in faith and observe (holy) days and still walk in love. It's the walking in love part we'll be judged on. God already said there would always be doctrinal divisions (present day speaking).

Yes but He never said they were to be accepted.

Denominations seem to have been originated around 300 AD. Before it was just "the church at...". God is non denominational. There are no denominations in Heaven. He makes absolutely no distinctions.

There has always been 'The Church' of God with a hierarchy. Not every man for himself. Show me one example of a non denom Church in the first 300 years.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Acts 10:34-35

Righteousness is only found by one who fully walks in the Spirit of Truth. You cannot do this and remain in heresy as much as you'd love for it to be true to make your case regarding different doctrines among the Christian believers.

 

[Alive_Again]

The unity was in the Spirit. Obviously we are exhorted to obey the Word of God. There were divisions reported. They were not of God. They happened even back then. There will always be disagreements on doctrine.

And they were always settled. Show me otherwise.

What indicates to you that they were settled? Paul told Timothy to preach, rebuke, exhort with all authority. There must have been needed rebuke, etc. It does not say that everyone lined up. There was a case where so and so were going to be handed over to Satan, others were going to be put out. The churches in the Book of Revelation were all different. Most of them, Jesus rebuked for some reason or another. It does not say that they repented. It would stand to reason that some did. It's always the "some" that usually cause problems. Not that we need it, but as you maintain, where is the evidence that it was settled and done with?

I said: "It's not for me to say. Paul told believers that they returned to the weak and beggarly elements by observing (holy) days and times. He also told one group not to judge them who chose to observe days because God was able to make them stand. So we do have some doctrines that aren't absolutely essential to walking in love."

It's not for you to say? Then shouldn't the Word of God tell us something so important? And nowhere does it say that those observing the Sabbath days were allowed to preach it to be a doctrine for all Christians either.

When Paul encountered those observing elements of the Law, like in Galatians, he asked them if they were going to finish in the flesh what they started in the Spirit? Yet, we are told to receive those weak in the faith, but not to doubtful disputations. They weren't to minister doubt among those of "faith". He didn't say that it was to be proclaimed for all. It is obvious that at some point, most of the church "fell asleep". The spirit of error pressed hard to enter in and caused schisms very early on.

For centuries, the church entered into a dark age. When the world was "englightened", it was finding life in the here and now and they weren't preparing for the hereafter.

Even today, we have to deal with those weak in faith.

The holiness pentecostals can't have women wearing makeup, the Church of Christ cannot have mechanical music, Baptists cannot take wine, Catholics have their things too. Not to preach an elitist church, but non denoms deliberately leave off requirements of "taste not, touch not, handle not" because they do not minister righteousness by faith. They preach works because we'll be judged by our works/fruit. No one has is doing it perfectly

We can receive those who are weak in faith and observe (holy) days and still walk in love. It's the walking in love part we'll be judged on. God already said there would always be doctrinal divisions (present day speaking).
​

Yes but He never said they were to be accepted.

I said: "Denominations seem to have been originated around 300 AD. Before it was just "the church at...". God is non denominational. There are no denominations in Heaven. He makes absolutely no distinctions."

There has always been 'The Church' of God with a hierarchy. Not every man for himself. Show me one example of a non denom Church in the first 300 years.

Show me a denomination? The churches at cities had apostles/prophets/evangelists/pastors/teachers, bishops, elders. That is the norm.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Acts 10:34-35
​

Righteousness is only found by one who fully walks in the Spirit of Truth. You cannot do this and remain in heresy as much as you'd love for it to be true to make your case regarding different doctrines among the Christian believers.

Righteousness is obtained by faith. You walk in the light that you have in love. Error can and does enter in to any degree. God is able to make those who endeavor to walk in love to stand. God decides when to pull the plug or remove the lamp from the church. Many churches only show worldly fruits in wordly love, compassion, and peace. There is no supernatural love or joy. You could find Allah preached in some churches according to their fruits, because cults, Muslims, etc. can walk in human compassion. They can witness in human strength. As long as God agrees with what they are doing (in Christian churches, not cults), they produce fruit that is not of themselves. Whereas cults, do not.

Ultimately, we're told to judge our fruits. Not just our own lives, but the church. Are people bearing fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is God setting people free of bondages and are they being led into the narrow way? Are they full of joy? Is the spirit of the world mixed in with the church? Are they on fire for God? Is He pruning and removing dross from their lives? Are they pressing in for more of Him in unity?

 

[Alive_Again]

The Spirit of Truth reveals ALL truths. Not heresy. You cannot be of one faith with an adventist anymore than I can with you.

That's what He reveals. He also reveals (uncovers) heresy. He does not confirm heresy. If he's born again and determines to walk in love according to the light he has, you can be in one faith. If you and I are born again and determine to walk in love, we can be in one faith. Your prejudice would prevent that. I would receive you. The faith is not a "doctrine". The "faith" is our believe in Jesus as our sacrificial lamb. His blood is our righteousness. God knows if we're sincere in our desire to follow Him.

You're diluting the faith of Christ's church to a simple formula of "believe and be saved" making all the works of the Apostles, to stamp out heresy go in vain. To believe means to obey. To obey means to listen to the teachings of Christ. To listen to the teachings of Christ means to be UNIFIED in one faith.

Believe and be saved. If you're not obeying the promptings in your heart you won't believe. You might in your head but not in your heart. We have the testimony of the Word of God to guide us, just like they had the OT to review and keep before their eyes and on their lips. The early church was somewhat different because He manifested His Word through preaching. In some ways He still does. It was a baby church and the Holy Spirit moved mightily among the apostles and leaders of the church. They considered the epistles of Peter and Paul to be the Word of God. In as much as people follow the Word, you have the fruits within. Some don't have the strength others have because they lack knowledge of the ways of the Lord. Sometimes this is because of strongholds that have been built in by deceiving spirits. They're designed to keep God from manifesting and everyone running to get saved from their empty lives. People make claims about their church being right but it always comes down to the fruits.

They also believe Hell isn't eternal which is a pretty big heresy.

True. The scriptures clearly indicate that there is an eternal Hell. If they are born again and walk in love, they won't go there. When they preach heresy the Holy Spirit steps back, just like He does in all churches. No one has come to the full stature of Christ individually or in their services.

It's not saying one can't eat unclean meats either which was actually a Doctrine where it was now acceptable in the Christian faith. It also isn't meaning for them to remain in their ways and preach that unclean meats

It's obviously not agreeing that touch not, taste not, handle not is the new way. All things are lawful, all things are not profitable. Receive him who is weak in faith (who adds some or any form of law). I believe it said "not to doubtful disputations" as though everyone should submit to what is not faith (doubt).

Why would Paul become as circumcision to the circumcision so he could win them? Don't you think he really gave us his liberty to win them? I believe this is when he was among them. I couldn't tell you at what point you stop the circumcision (who subvert households) and at what point you behave as one circumcised.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment." 1Corinthians 1:10

I guess each one should be fully convinced in his own mind about "eating meats" or not and thus we have denominations.

The Adventists aren't 'weak' in their faith. They've created an entire new Christian church preaching doctrines of men concerning the sabbath and are strongly into it.

They won't enjoy the freedom Jesus died for them to have if they mix Law. That's the fruits. They have to live with that. It won't help their fight of faith to have undercurrents of the Law. That's between God and them. I don't see them outright as non Christians, even though they were at first a branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

When they come around real liberty and God really moving, Adventists who want the full truth see this and think, "We're missing it!" They know inwardly because the Holy Spirit is striving within them to receive liberty. Those who suffer from "religious" spirits in their group will be offended by the liberty and say they are wildcats without authoriity, even though they have Pastors, elders, and Jesus Himself manifesting Himself as the visible Head of the Church.


I said: It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:45

Yes and through the Catholic Church this was made possible.

Catholics? We have some ex-Catholics. They don't have anything to do with our church and we are taught of God. God is still getting around our "religious" trained minds to teach us the ways of liberty. Some lessons are long learned. But the fruits of the Holy Spirit within and the manifestation of the Spirit of God upon demonstrate the level of approval that we're walking in. He rewards those who walk in His ways. We still have a great deal of growing left to do. Sometimes you walk in a Spirit filled church and they are more developed in one area and the fruits(!) while they do this area are marvelous. You want to imitate what they do because let's face it, we're looking for God to manifest His glory in our churches! You see what is different and how they are doing the Word more perfectly and imitate them. God rewards. That's what we're all supposed to be doing in our walks. God brings certain people along in our walks who are saltier than us in certain areas. They cause us to thirst for God and we imitate them as they imitate Christ. It's not about pride or religion. Sometimes He has to break both down because typically strongholds exist in everyone. God allows this, and still guides us, but when light is given, we are expected to respond. If we don't our fruits wain and we wither on the vine. All arguments end with the fruits and we can all judge our selves and our churches.

You interpret with a sola Scripture mind to think it's talking about individuals here when it's talking about the core of the Church.

It's talking about ALL of the church. Leaders too. Leaders have a leadership anointing. If they walk in it, they instruct the church. The church must bear witness to it. The leaders must show how it's scriptural or we don't walk in it. That's what God has been saying to do. Make this a habit. You can trust this to be a prudent and wise process.

As will you, when you have abused the Word of God to fit your needs, blasphemed the Mother of Our Lord and even His Church on earth.

I have the greatest respect for Mary. Mary K Baxter on her trip to Heaven saw Mary and she was wearing an outfit made out of diamonds! But that doesn't mean she can hear our prayers. Jesus is our High Priest and no one will usurp His ministry (although I know you wouldn't look at it that way, that's what it implies.) Words attributed to her should line up with the Word of God, and they don't. If you want to examine those, we'll do that too.

No, what it shows is that infallibility and impeccability are two different things.

Praying with shaman is just being peccable?

You're reading His heart again and what He meant when He 'kissed' the book.

I'm sure his thinking was only respectful of all people, as was his way. But God's ways are higher than ours. He said not to fellowship with them. We can't even wish them "godspeed".


"...Once gathered in the Square, again each religion will be able to present its own prayer, one after the other."

Nothing there about endorsing their erroneous doctrines in anything you've highlighted. That's wishful thinking my man.

He was allowing their demonic spirits to minister. I won't argue this one because this is something God has shown when you approach getting spirits out of your life and home. You get rid of their books and cursed objects and renounce everything to do with doctrines of demons. Whether you approached practitioners in your "right mind" is immaterial. You loose or permit spirits to operate. If you say, "This demon will operate here, and then this one will manifest next..." He didn't say that because he didn't know. But it's the honest truth.

You do when you're interpreting His actions.

We judge all fruits. Don't give place or allow the devil to operate. Definitely not in the church! You don't put up a statue of Buddha on the altar in a church!

The Jews do not confess Jesus to be the Lord and Savior of all humanity nor do they recognize the NT canon. They reject half of our Bibles. Now you either concede to the truth that the Muslims worship our God yet in a perverse way or if they don't,

...neither do the Jews since they likewise perverted His Word.

They Jews were given over to the blindness that they have. They are the apple of God's eye.Anyone messes with them, verbally or what are going to have a measure of judgment in their lives. Be careful about this. America has already received a measure of judgment for trying to divide Israel, the land of the promise. If we persist, greater judgment is to follow. It often is within days of the activity.

Here you are ranting and raving about these signs and wonders then you keep silent when I ask you for proof. Keep quiet if you can't back up your 'proofs'.

That's what the Pharisees would say. Give us a sign! Who do you think you are (to Jesus)? I'll preach it!

The Stigmata that smell of perfume are. Communion that back up the truth regarding the Holy Eucharist are. Miracles that back up a Dogma of the faith (Immaculate Conception), are.

The enemy can counterfeit anything that even looks like Jesus. We have people who rush to some picture of an object that looks like Jesus and yet today right in Spirit filled churches, the Lord of glory Himself manifests. I'm sorry this is so. I don't condemn them. They are hungry for God. I'm quite sure this is how God sees Catholics in their rosaries (repetitive prayers), staring at communion, etc. They have a hunger for God, but not according to knowledge. I'm sorry this offends you, but you don't need to say the same prayer 30 times or more in the same sitting. It's not about formulas. God won't hear for their "much speaking".

I said" " I'm sure they were "infallible". Doesn't that alone just shout at you that man at every level is prone to make errors and are fallible."

No, why would a man who sins scream that He can't be infallible.

(Concerning evil Popes in history) I'm saying that when you demonstrate a continued blindness and an evil heart with fruits worthy of damnation from someone who supposedly is infallible, then even the rocks shout out, "He's fallible!" Do they not?

So you've concluded they are ignorant since they can't come to see something a child could see and that you can see from the Written Word?

Once saved always saved is a stronghold. God doesn't preach it. We're accountable. They ignore many scriptures to believe this. It's a stronghold. In this area, God has no part, but when they repent and believe, God is right there. If their fruits are worthy of damnation, they'll be in for a surprise at the end. I would rather know personally.

I didn't add anything. You reject the Oral Word of God. By doing so you're adding to the Word of God by suggesting it's wrongful to do so.

You can have an "oral word" as long as it doesn't contradict what we already know. Your tradition says "all sinned" but not Mary. You've even gone so far as to say "all" couldn't mean everyone because Jesus didn't sin. That doesn't even deserve a response, although I've strived with you.

Genesis and Luke that helps understand Mother Mary's role in the Church. By doing this, you misinterpret Romans 3. I've said this like 10 times already.

You can claim what you want about Genesis 3. I don't believe it's correct. Mary is not mentioned. You've assumed this and use it as a means of justifying adding to Romans 3:23. How are those fruits?

I credit the Lord for remaining with His Church. Just not your man made idea of a church.

If it were entirely man made the Lord would not be in it. I like where my church is going, in spite of its imperfection. We're pressing on. We see people dedicate their lives to the Lord in every service. Supernatural provision. Prophesy, visions, and dreams. The manifested presence of the Lord.I haven't been to your church so I can't say otherwise. I do know that by doctrine they explain their lack of man things by saying that they ended with the Apostles. That is saying, our fruits lack this because... (stronghold!) The day that stuff returns to Catholics, I will rejoice! What a great victory! You actually do have it, but's it "hidden" in charismatic prayer groups. Go check them out!

Then I'll ask this once more. Why are you trusting in the NT if you believe the men could have made mistakes while writing it down.

They didn't make mistakes writing it down. God can speak to you or me just fine and have us write down whatever He wants and we're still fallible for the rest.

Elijah ran from Jezebel but his prophecies were dead on. God uses them to speak to us today in them. Jonah ran from the call of God. Abraham lied. Moses murdered an Egyptian. Peter fled from the crucifixion (as did the others), Paul rounded up Christians to be killed. They weren't perfect to deliver the Word. For all we know a Spirit filled Pope might take office and be a prophet. We'd still have to judge his words like everyone elses. It could happen!

 

[Kepha]

The unity was in the Spirit. Obviously we are exhorted to obey the Word of God. There were divisions reported. They were not of God. They happened even back then. There will always be disagreements on doctrine.

There were never disagreements on truths that were accepted on essential Doctrines within the Church and were allowed to be preached as truth.

What indicates to you that they were settled? Paul told Timothy to preach, rebuke, exhort with all authority. There must have been needed rebuke, etc.

You just answered for me. Notice Paul is giving Him authority to do so. The faithful must have recognized this and adhered to it otherwise, they'd be known as heretics. One can't receive authority without it being recognized and Timothy was recognized as being anointed to preach the Word of God and keep the truths safe within.

It does not say that everyone lined up. There was a case where so and so were going to be handed over to Satan, others were going to be put out. The churches in the Book of Revelation were all different. Most of them, Jesus rebuked for some reason or another. It does not say that they repented.

If they remained in their heresy, they wouldn't be part of the Church. And you're trying to interpret the toughest book of the Bible to understand. The visions are used in a symbolic and allegorical language borrowed from the Old Testament. The Apostle John writes to 'only' seven churches of Asian Minor but the figure seven symbolizes totality or completeness, so in reality, it's possible He is addressing the entire Church. Other than debating on the precise meanings of these Churches, whether it happened or will happen, the clear message are the sins of some and righteousness of others. This doesn't mean that the Churches were not given the appropriate Doctrines to hold on to either which is what we are discussing. You say the Church was always going to have different doctrines (whether essential or not) and I'm telling you that the essentials were known were meant to be stamped out by the ones in Authority.

When Paul encountered those observing elements of the Law, like in Galatians, he asked them if they were going to finish in the flesh what they started in the Spirit? Yet, we are told to receive those weak in the faith, but not to doubtful disputations. They weren't to minister doubt among those of "faith". He didn't say that it was to be proclaimed for all.

It's a basic truth that the Jewish Laws are no longer binding on Christians. To suggest that it's not proclaimed to all is absurd and denying that truth. To allow 'weak' Christians to preach these errors is equally absurd. That wasn't Paul's intentions. Paul is allowing both days to be kept, but He is not allowing any type of abandonment of the Lord's Day in favor of the Sabbath. Protestantism came 500 years ago and the amount of denominations that have appeared since then is grand. If this was allowed in the first couple of centuries, you'd have even a greater magnitude of protestant Churches in existence. But it just wasn't to be. The early church would constantly be battling heresy and not just allow it to take its course as you're suggesting..

Even today, we have to deal with those weak in faith.

You would have to know the Doctrinal truths of the Church to know those weak in the faith. That's the entire point I'm making here. And you don't. You makes a guess work out of it regarding the essentials and the non essentials.

The holiness pentecostals can't have women wearing makeup, the Church of Christ cannot have mechanical music, Baptists cannot take wine, Catholics have their things too. Not to preach an elitist church, but non denoms deliberately leave off requirements of "taste not, touch not, handle not" because they do not minister righteousness by faith. They preach works because we'll be judged by our works/fruit. No one has is doing it perfectly

It isn't all about a watered down version of your fruits of love teaching apart from holding fast to the Traditions of the Apostles by Word or Epistle. And non denoms have their own differences as there are so many around. That's why many non denom Christians go Church shopping like my friend. He didn't care for all those claiming to speak in tongues or the 'everybody come up and be healed' sermons where nobody ever is. All of these differences have kept the Christian community apart in the protestant circles.

I said: "Denominations seem to have been originated around 300 AD. Before it was just "the church at...". God is non denominational. There are no denominations in Heaven. He makes absolutely no distinctions."

Which ones do you speak of that remained their Christian identity?

Show me a denomination? The churches at cities had apostles/prophets/evangelists/pastors/teachers, bishops, elders. That is the norm.
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
Acts 10:34-35

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. You seem to be repeating what I said.

Righteousness is obtained by faith. You walk in the light that you have in love.

Righteousness is obtained by works of love done in faith. But it still doesn't discount all the teachings of the early church on the faithful either. That takes obedience and is part of the faith.

Ultimately, we're told to judge our fruits. Not just our own lives, but the church.

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are done in obedience to the truth of Christ and His teachings. You can't neglect essential doctrines of Christianity just so you sum up eternal life to the fruits formed i us by the Holy Spirit that perfects a Christian. The Holy Spirit is one with Christ. Christ teachings certain things binding on Christians. This only can conclude that the Holy Spirit isn't a spirit of disunity brought on by differing essential Doctrines.

That's what He reveals. He also reveals (uncovers) heresy. He does not confirm heresy.

He uncovers Heresy to show the true 'faithful ones' within the Catholic Church. Outside the Church, the faithful doesn't know what is heresy and what is not, and if you continue to refuse your visible infallible guides authority, you will continue to reject these truths since your Biblical authority can't do it for you as that wasn't the way God set it up.

I guess each one should be fully convinced in his own mind about "eating meats" or not and thus we have denominations.

No, we have denominations because everyone interprets the word themselves and leads to different conclusions on essential and non essential matters. Some protestants believe in infant Baptism as being a necessity. Other's don't. Some believe works will save. Others don't. Some believe the Sabbath is binding and if you reject it, you will lose your salvation. And those are just a few.

Believe and be saved. If you're not obeying the promptings in your heart you won't believe. .....They considered the epistles of Peter and Paul to be the Word of God. In as much as people follow the Word, you have the fruits within. Some don't have the strength others have because they lack knowledge of the ways of the Lord. Sometimes this is because of strongholds that have been built in by deceiving spirits. They're designed to keep God from manifesting and everyone running to get saved from their empty lives. People make claims about their church being right but it always comes down to the fruits.

You go on and on and on but you're saying a whole lot of nothing right now having do to with my quote. I said you're diluting the faith and simplifying it to mean believe and be saved' and to obey the Spirit is to obey the Spirit on EVERYTHING or else even with the non essentials, you'll be considered to have a weak faith. Weak faith = Holy Spirit not leading you into all things nor Obeying the Spirit prompting you.

They won't enjoy the freedom Jesus died for them to have if they mix Law. That's the fruits. They have to live with that. It won't help their fight of faith to have undercurrents of the Law. That's between God and them. I don't see them outright as non Christians, even though they were at first a branch of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
When they come around real liberty and God really moving, Adventists who want the full truth see this and think, "We're missing it!" They know inwardly because the Holy Spirit is striving within them to receive liberty.

They do as you do and believe with all their heart that the Holy Spirit is leading them but because they continue to reject the Church of Christ, they will not come to the truth of this from the relying on the Bible only heresy.

 

[Kepha]

Catholics? We have some ex-Catholics. They don't have anything to do with our church and we are taught of God.

The Word of God would not have been carried this far over the past 2000 years if not for the Catholic Church. So yes, the Holy Spirit used the Church to give them the Word of God even if they now distort it.

It's talking about ALL of the church. Leaders too. Leaders have a leadership anointing. If they walk in it, they instruct the church. The church must bear witness to it. The leaders must show how it's scriptural or we don't walk in it. That's what God has been saying to do. Make this a habit. You can trust this to be a prudent and wise process.

Through the laying on of hands, the Apostles ordained their ministers and so on and so on. The anointed you speak of are normal men claiming they're anointed without any successor of the Apostles. That's another diluting of the faith and Doctrinal heresy.

I have the greatest respect for Mary. Mary K Baxter on her trip to Heaven saw Mary and she was wearing an outfit made out of diamonds!

Mary K Baxter is nobody to me and I could care less what she claims she saw.

But that doesn't mean she can hear our prayers.

No She can't. But She can with God's help.
You can't 'see' this from Scripture because you've cut yourself off from the 'Oral' Traditions of God. Though a case can still be made from Scripture that intercessory prayer is possible and proper. One can even see in the Apocalypse that the Elders were had in their possession, the prayers of the Saints on earth.
Apoc 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

No, what it shows is that infallibility and impeccability are two different things.
Praying with shaman is just being peccable?

Sadly, your wording is judgmental and deceiving here. It's no more praying TO shamon than a protestant prays TO Mother Mary if both are Praying together.

I'm sure his thinking was only respectful of all people, as was his way. But God's ways are higher than ours. He said not to fellowship with them. We can't even wish them "godspeed".

All 'truth' comes from God. If a religion has even a seed of the Spirit of Truth in it, then it's possible it may eventually bring them out of their errors. Even non Christians have 'moral truths' in them before they become Christian. Otherwise, they couldn't be prompted by the Holy Spirit to become Christian if they had a totally weak nature.

He was allowing their demonic spirits to minister. I won't argue this one because this is something God has shown when you approach getting spirits out of your life and home. You get rid of their books and cursed objects and renounce everything to do with doctrines of demons.

It's funny how you say this because protestant profess doctrines of men not of God. One could even say they're demonic since they brought forth a ton of corruption with the Word of God and twisted it to their own desires. Yet I wouldn't claim that your errors make your entire belief demonic since you also carry some Divine Truths as well.

We judge all fruits. Don't give place or allow the devil to operate. Definitely not in the church! You don't put up a statue of Buddha on the altar in a church!

The Devil isn't going to operate when you 'know' your doctrines. He can only confuse the ignorant. A Pope saying a prayer with other faiths present doesn't mean He's praying to their God or accepting their false Gods.

They Jews were given over to the blindness that they have. They are the apple of God's eye.Anyone messes with them, verbally or what are going to have a measure of judgment in their lives.

Don't turn all drama on me now. We were talking about distorted views of God where you used it to prove the Muslims didn't worship the same God and I used it to prove the same with the Jews if we apply the same logic to them.

That's what the Pharisees would say. Give us a sign! Who do you think you are (to Jesus)? I'll preach it!

Actually, that was one of YOUR 'proofs' that you were in the true Church. Well prove your proof.

The enemy can counterfeit anything that even looks like Jesus. We have people who rush to some picture of an object that looks like Jesus and yet today right in Spirit filled churches, the Lord of glory Himself manifests. I'm sorry this is so. I don't condemn them.

Yes, the enemy can indeed. It's why the Church takes these claims seriously and does some heavy investigating making sure the message lines up with the constant truths of the Church along with the demeanor of the ones who make the claims long after it's taken place.

I'm sorry this offends you, but you don't need to say the same prayer 30 times or more in the same sitting.

You don't offend me in the least because you're right. You don't NEED to. But it's fine if you do and very profitable.

It's not about formulas. God won't hear for their "much speaking".

Much speaking would be praying in vain. It's all about the heart when you meditate on the Rosary while praying words of the Bible. You're judging again.
And Jesus Himself gave a small 'formula' to a prayer.
Matt 6:9 Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

(Concerning evil Popes in history) I'm saying that when you demonstrate a continued blindness and an evil heart with fruits worthy of damnation from someone who supposedly is infallible, then even the rocks shout out, "He's fallible!" Do they not?

As a matter of fact, the miracle is actually when these 'Bad' Popes NEVER changed Doctrine. The Holy Spirit wouldn't allow it.

You can have an "oral word" as long as it doesn't contradict what we already know.

We're going back to this again. You can't know something that's limited and missing the crucial filling. You take the implicit Word with a grain of salt and don't put too much thought into it. I say many Doctrines are there implicitly. It also shows that hole in your sola Scripture doctrine again because something very valuable can be said in the implicit Scriptures and you'd never know because the filling is non existent.

Your tradition says "all sinned" but not Mary. You've even gone so far as to say "all" couldn't mean everyone because Jesus didn't sin. That doesn't even deserve a response, although I've strived with you.

My Traditions say Mary never sinned and there are implicit verses in the Bible to lead one to understand this thereby concluding that the 'All' doesn't really mean 'All' in the most literal sense possible anymore than it includes Christ.

You can claim what you want about Genesis 3. I don't believe it's correct.

What you believe is irrelevant to me regarding the Truth of Revelation.
You arrive at this conclusion because you adhere to the Written Word only and built most of your doctrines from that which you find explicit. Strangely your sola Scripture doctrine isn't but you cling to that it's absolute.

If it were entirely man made the Lord would not be in it.

The Holy Spirit can still work though those imperfectly connected to the Church by their Baptism. But your idea of 'Church' is a made up one.

They didn't make mistakes writing it down. God can speak to you or me just fine and have us write down whatever He wants and we're still fallible for the rest.

I asked how you know. Just saying "Because" isn't good enough.

Elijah ran from Jezebel but his prophecies were dead on. God uses them to speak to us today in them. Jonah ran from the call of God. Abraham lied. Moses murdered an Egyptian. Peter fled from the crucifixion (as did the others), Paul rounded up Christians to be killed. They weren't perfect to deliver the Word.

There were books in dispute in the Early Church that were finally rejected and books suspected as frauds that were accepted. How are you sure Revelations for example belongs in the NT and wasn't just some uninspired man writing it down and passing it off as God's truth. There are even Christians today that have their doubts.

 

[Alive_Again]

I said: "But that doesn't mean she can hear our prayers."

No She can't. But She can with God's help.

You think God needs help! Why would He "empower" someone to be able to hear prayer, and then answer it?!

Sadly, your wording is judgmental and deceiving here. It's no more praying TO shamon than a protestant prays TO Mother Mary if both are Praying together.

There is nothing deceptive in my words! I never said he prayed "to" the shaman. He prayed "with" the shaman. Admittedly, they prayed to different Gods. They gave place to the devil. When you look at him during these events, he looks oppressed.

I said: "But God's ways are higher than ours. He said not to fellowship with them. We can't even wish them "godspeed"."

All 'truth' comes from God. If a religion has even a seed of the Spirit of Truth in it, then it's possible it may eventually bring them out of their errors.

You want some "implicit" truth? Don't try and fellowship with those who contact antichrist spirits! It does state that there are sins by association. There is no truth in the devil.

It's funny how you say this because protestant profess doctrines of men not of God.

The whole Catholic/Protestant thing is in the mind of men that are of this Earth. God doesn't see it this way. It's sons and daughters only. There are no distinctions in Heaven, and He makes none on the Earth.
You obey the commandments He writes in your heart and you're in right standing with Him. It's not about the church!

One could even say they're demonic since they brought forth a ton of corruption with the Word of God and twisted it to their own desires.

I really pray you see the light. They'll be a parting of the "gray area" where people can comfortably stay in the similitude of Christian life. You'll have to choose between relationship or go into gross darkness. It's not here yet, but your religious mindset will cause to miss out on the greater works even if you eventually choose the path of life.

We judge all fruits. Don't give place or allow the devil to operate. Definitely not in the church! You don't put up a statue of Buddha on the altar in a church! We judge the fruits. Give the Word first place in your life and don't make excuses for the Pope. I pray that he repented of this.

The Devil isn't going to operate when you 'know' your doctrines. He can only confuse the ignorant.

He can confuse those who do not walk in the Spirit. God made it really plain about fellowshipping with unbelievers. Light has no fellowship with darkness.

Don't turn all drama on me now. We were talking about distorted views of God where you used it to prove the Muslims didn't worship the same God and I used it to prove the same with the Jews if we apply the same logic to them.

This is not about logic. It's about spirits. The Muslims pray to a god that is really a demon. Jesus has indicated that all other names do not save. If you try to get in another way, you're a thief. It might as well have been: "You take your way, I'll take mine." "Let's seek God!" It never works and there are no fruits whatsoever to be gained.
Jesus does reveal Himself to some God seeking Muslims, but not to let them continue in their deception. They know Him by name, and they come out!

You say it is judging him, but we impose the Word on people's actions.

Actually, that was one of YOUR 'proofs' that you were in the true Church. Well prove your proof.

I said "you" judge your own church.

What you believe is irrelevant to me regarding the Truth of Revelation.
...you adhere to the Written Word only and built most of your doctrines from that which you find explicit. Strangely your sola Scripture doctrine isn't but you cling to that it's absolute.

Your absolute blindness to the fact that it is not "sola scripture" and is "Word and Spirit". That's the New Covenant believer's rock. It's revelation knowledge, the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it. It's the Spirit Word.

But your idea of 'Church' is a made up one.

I can't begin to say how much you've grieved the Holy Spirit with your carnal, evil judgments. Your defiling words, eat like a curse. I feel defiled reading them. You neither seek truth, or endeavor to meekly present your beliefs. Your doctrine of tradition tends to want to negate the Word and then when I give you scripture to show how God still leads the Spirit led church today, you insult and spew your rotten fruit. You've trampled on my pearls and sat in the seat of the scornful. You minister religion and not relationship. God has higher plans for you if you could only escape this mindset.

I said: "They didn't make mistakes writing it down. God can speak to you or me just fine and have us write down whatever He wants and we're still fallible for the rest."

In 1984 I was born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit. I had previously lived under a lot of oppression. There was a great war in the spirit to keep me that way. It didn't matter what anyone said to me, the strongholds in my mind continued to torment. God Himself in answer to prayer led me to teaching about how abiding in the (revealed) Word makes you an overcomer. The Holy Spirit many times since then has said "My Word". I've heard words from the Father, Jesus, and fairly recently, God Himself acknowledged my boasting on the faithfulness of relying on His Word. If there is one lesson that stands supreme with God and His children. He wants them to know that He stands behind His Word. Mightily this year, God has confirmed His Word inside me and what He has taught me, and I've ministered it to others with a powerful anointing. That doesn't make me anything I wasn't already in His sight, but it shows Him to powerfully indicate that you can take His Word at face value and apply it like a little child, and He will confirm it with signs following. When someone else comes up and says something contrary to the Word, however well meaning, that is deception.

If the entire church turned on me tomorrow, I would know that God's Word is true. Of course that won't happen, but it doesn't matter if Joseph Ratzinger himself "excommunicates" me, I'll stand in the peace of God and rest easy knowing that what I read is true.

Do you know what God (relucantly) says about you now?

"Kepha is nobody to me and I could care less what he claims he saw (or says)."

How are you sure Revelations for example belongs in the NT and wasn't just some uninspired man writing it down and passing it off as God's truth. There are even Christians today that have their doubts.

He gave me a great hunger for His Word. Regarding the Book of Revelation, only a spiritual child, or a religious person who isn't really born again could not hear the voice of the Master in it.

I said: "I have the greatest respect for Mary. Mary K Baxter on her trip to Heaven saw Mary and she was wearing an outfit made out of diamonds!"

Mary K Baxter is nobody to me and I could care less what she claims she saw.

You're not worthy of it. Is it any wonder you are deaf and blind?

Do you know why God would say what I said about you? (Actually, not me, but the Word.)

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Matt 7:1-2

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
James 4:11-12

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
James 5:9

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1 Cor 11:31

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:10-12

I would strongly advise you to repent and to watch your words. I suppose you'll say that I am judging you, but I am only imposing the Word over your words. Not to gloat over your ungodliness. I don't want to see you burn.

 

[Kepha]

There is nothing deceptive in my words! I never said he prayed "to" the shaman. He prayed "with" the shaman. Admittedly, they prayed to different Gods. They gave place to the devil. When you look at him during these events, he looks oppressed.

You said yourself you believe the Apparitions of Mary are of the devil. So I'll ask again, if you ever find yourself 'praying' with a Catholic, are you equally 'praying' with this demonic Mary or are you praying with the 'Truths' of Catholicism regarding what you believe are Christian Doctrine?
Cardinal Arinze&#8217;s book 'Church in Dialogue' states that common prayer for all was not attempted because of the different beliefs:

"Each religious family or tradition was fully respected. There was no attempt at a common prayer for all. Prayer is based on belief. Since beliefs are different, the formula chosen for the celebration was &#8216;being together to pray&#8217;, not &#8216;praying together"." As for peace and other human goods being a "mundane" matter not connected with one&#8217;s salvation, we should reflect on the words of Jesus : "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matt. 5: 9). Surely, working for peace and collaborating with men of good will for noble ends has something to do with being blessed by God!

If anything, the Church would only wish to preserve, and promote the spiritual and moral goods found among these non Christian religions and not their errors. She does not promote their false gods or teachings in any way.
At this event in Assisi, John Paul II openly preached Christ as the true source of peace:

"In his death on Golgotha, Jesus bore in His Flesh the wounds of God&#8217;s Passion for humanity. Bearing witness to the heavenly Father&#8217;s loving plan, He became our peace, who has made us both one, and had broken down the dividing wall of hostility (Eph. 2: 14)."

I said: "But God's ways are higher than ours. He said not to fellowship with them. We can't even wish them "godspeed"."

God doesn't want fellowship with their errors of the devil. That's at least the message I get from 1 Corinthians.
There are rays of light within certain religions of their 'seeking' the one true God even if their religion itself, limits this knowledge.

Acts 17:23 For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: to the unknown god. What, therefore, you worship without knowing it, that I preach to you.

Paul even quotes poetry here suggesting that even within their pagan religions, there applies a 'light of truth' about the real God of the Universe.

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being: as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.

You want some "implicit" truth? Don't try and fellowship with those who contact antichrist spirits! It does state that there are sins by association. There is no truth in the devil.

Every untruth regarding the Word of God can be rooted in satan's lies. There are sins by association only in so far as when you show approval to these lies because of your association. The Pope was not doing this.

The whole Catholic/Protestant thing is in the mind of men that are of this Earth. God doesn't see it this way. It's sons and daughters only. There are no distinctions in Heaven, and He makes none on the Earth.]

There are no distinctions between truth and error? Because you're doing it again and attempting to sum up the entire Truth of the Church as a simple formula written in one's heart where God could care less if you actually know ALL of His 'Essential' teachings preached by the Apostles for mankind. Some teachings help us increase our faith by understanding the works of the law vs the Works of Grace. Teaching that the Sabbath is no longer binding is one of these truths. While other truths concern the way God wishes to use His Sacraments through the Church, whether it be by Baptism, The Holy Eucharist, Reconciliation, Holy Orders etc. So don't try and tell me these aren't what's important and it's 'ok' to be ignorant of them unless the Apostles preached in vain.
If the Holy Spirit who can neither deceive nor be deceived is moving you, it would be in the direction of what is true.

You obey the commandments He writes in your heart and you're in right standing with Him. It's not about the church!

The Church is the Ground and Pillar of Truth. The Church is the Bride of Christ and the 'Oneness' that Christ prayed for. Every ounce of truth and Grace originate from God through His Church. The Church and Christ is like a Marriage. Inseparable.

You'll have to choose between relationship or go into gross darkness.

It is you who seems to be very comfortable with allowing error to run free in the Church and it's fine with God since He only 'reads' our hearts.

This is not about logic. It's about spirits. The Muslims pray to a god that is really a demon.

They pray to a distorted view to the God of Abraham.

Jesus has indicated that all other names do not save. If you try to get in another way, you're a thief.

Nobody is saved except through Christ. Even the Jews now who believe in the God of Abraham with a distorted view.

Jesus does reveal Himself to some God seeking Muslims, but not to let them continue in their deception. They know Him by name, and they come out!

It's not about allowing them to 'continue' in the deception anymore than allowing a Jew to continue in their deception.

I said "you" judge your own church.

To recognize the fruits within God's Church isn't judging. It only strengthens my faith. St. Augustine says it best here:

For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith) - not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion.
Augustine [A.D. 354-430]

Your absolute blindness to the fact that it is not "sola scripture" and is "Word and Spirit"

I have continued to hear from you for awhile now, about you do not agree to our 'Marian Doctrines' because they're "Outside of Scripture". So it's only WHAT'S INSIDE OF SCRIPTURE that you judge the Word of God by. Stop being in such self denial and set yourself free from this crazy unproven doctrine of man. You may believe the Holy Spirit is enabling you to receive the complete understanding from the Written Form but it's the Written Word only that you first go to, to allow the Spirit to work. That is not a teaching of any Apostle but a poorly excercised assumption.

I said: "But that doesn't mean she can hear our prayers."

No She can't. But She can with God's help.
You think God needs help! Why would He "empower" someone to be able to hear prayer, and then answer it?!

First off Mother Mary doesn't 'Answer' prayers anymore than if my prayers could answer your prayers.
Every answer is from the will of God. And God would "empower" Her for the same reason He "empowers" a Christian on earth with their prayers of intercession for another. Or He "empowered" the Apostles to preach and teach without error. For the Benefit the Body as He set it up. Do you really think God needs you to pray for someone for Him to heal them. The truth of the matter is, God doesn't need us for anything but it's what He WANTS. He wills the Body of Believers to operate like a family so we need one another. You'll have to ask Him this mystery if you should ever meet Him, but one thing for certain is, when we intercede or the Saints in Heaven, we 'co-operate' with the Holy Spirit by taking His Graces through prayer, then reapplying them to others.

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."

The Body of believers are even so closely connected that if one sins, you sin against the 'entire' Body with Jesus as our Head. If it's Christ will to allow His Mother to be our universal 'Spiritual' mother as Abraham was the the Jews 'Spiritual' father then it still remains within the confines of the faith.
You once brought up that passage referring to the least in Heaven being greater than John the Baptist.
Well in Catholicism this passage applies where we believe there are levels of Happiness in Heaven. Where the more you 'co-operate' with the Graces of God on earth, the larger your cup will be in Heaven as your 'reward'. This is similar to the believe about Mary. She perfectly obeyed God in every way while rejecting everything satan threw at Her but as usual with
all Christians. Mother Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith but again, is only possible because of the Holy Spirit.

I can't begin to say how much you've grieved the Holy Spirit with your carnal, evil judgments. Your defiling words, eat like a curse. I feel defiled reading them. You neither seek truth, or endeavor to meekly present your beliefs.

It appears I've grieved you more than anyone. The Holy Spirit commends me for defending the Bride of Christ.

Your doctrine of tradition tends to want to negate the Word and then when I give you scripture to show how God still leads the Spirit led church today, you insult and spew your rotten fruit.

You gave Scripture with your own twisted interpretation attached. No thanks. And you've insulted the Word of God again by lowering it to be traditions of men. You certainly will be judged over this my friend.

You've trampled on my pearls and sat in the seat of the scornful. You minister religion and not relationship. God has higher plans for you if you could only escape this mindset.

Your pearls are only for the deceived. Please open your heart to the Holy Ghost and allow him to show you this truth.

I said: "They didn't make mistakes writing it down. God can speak to you or me just fine and have us write down whatever He wants and we're still fallible for the rest."
In 1984 I was born again and baptized in the Holy Spirit. I had previously lived under a lot of oppression. There was a great war in the spirit to keep me that way. It didn't matter what anyone said to me, the strongholds in my mind continued to torment. God Himself in answer to prayer led me to teaching about how abiding in the (revealed) Word makes you an overcomer. The Holy Spirit many times since then has said "My Word". I've heard words from the Father, Jesus, and fairly recently, God Himself acknowledged my boasting on the faithfulness of relying on His Word. If there is one lesson that stands supreme with God and His children. He wants them to know that He stands behind His Word. Mightily this year, God has confirmed His Word inside me and what He has taught me, and I've ministered it to others with a powerful anointing. That doesn't make me anything I wasn't already in His sight, but it shows Him to powerfully indicate that you can take His Word at face value and apply it like a little child, and He will confirm it with signs following. When someone else comes up and says something contrary to the Word, however well meaning, that is deception.

Your own personal testimony to me is of no relevance to this discussion since even the Mormons can make this claim while adding to the books of Scripture.

If the entire church turned on me tomorrow, I would know that God's Word is true.

And I would know that you were in the wrong.

Do you know what God (relucantly) says about you now?
"Kepha is nobody to me and I could care less what he claims he saw (or says)."

You're judging my heart again and speaking on God's behalf because I don't agree with your erroneous doctrines interpreted by a sinful man while removed from the Authority of the Church. I can live with that while you'll be reprimanded for it.

He gave me a great hunger for His Word. Regarding the Book of Revelation, only a spiritual child, or a religious person who isn't really born again could not hear the voice of the Master in it.

Wow, now you're judging every Christian or area within the early Church who had their doubts about that book by calling them ignorant while at the same time. believing they later came to the conclusion which Books were Inspired on mere feelings alone. And you actually preach this nonsense to non believers? "The Bible is Inspired because I 'feel' it's inspired and if you don't believe in it also, you're not listening to the Holy Spirit prompting you as He does me".
Any Muslim can come up with that rhetoric.

 

[Kepha]

I said: "I have the greatest respect for Mary. Mary K Baxter on her trip to Heaven saw Mary and she was wearing an outfit made out of diamonds!"

Mary K Baxter is nobody to me and I could care less what she claims she saw.
You're not worthy of it. Is it any wonder you are deaf and blind?

Why, because I don't take serious a woman who's claims who contradict the Church. I don't want to be worthy of the doctrines of men and the hallucinations of women.

Do you know why God would say what I said about you? (Actually, not me, but the Word.)
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Matt 7:1-2

I find it ironic that you permit yourself to judge her visions worthy to believe but I'm not permitted to judge her visions unworthy to believe.
If she had these visions yet comfortably remain outside the Church then she's of no use to me because everything she says is now suspect.

From the CCC:
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such "revelations".

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
James 4:11-12
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
James 5:9
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1 Cor 11:31
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:10-12

This makes you nothing more than a hypocrite as you've judged my heart on several occasions in this thread.

I would strongly advise you to repent and to watch your words. I suppose you'll say that I am judging you, but I am only imposing the Word over your words. Not to gloat over your ungodliness. I don't want to see you burn.

You've concluded that in my heart, I've intentionally kept God out from revealing me His Truths. Even I've never gone that far with you as I'll allow your position to be motivated by ignorance and not contempt.
I may have thrown back the same words at you but it was only to show you what you were doing with me.