All have sinned?

[Alive_Again]

It’s common to hear non-Catholics point to Romans 3:23 (“for all have sinned and fallen sort of the glory of God&#8221 as evidence that Mary must have sinned.

So in order to say that verses such as these must mean that Mary sinned, one must first say that Mary must have been evil, boastful, foolish, greedy or wicked - because those verses are speaking of evil, boastful, foolish, greedy and wicked people.

All men are foolish, evil, and wicked. Whether they boast or are greedy, all of the bases are covered in the passage. That's the flesh nature since Adam. That's why we need a savior. That's why she is included in "all".

The passage in Romans points to the fact that all have sinned and need Christ as their savior. None were righteous. That means all were sinners.

...Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
...They are all gone out of the way
...all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3
..all have sinned and come short

All need to receive the righteousness of God.

...the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ

unto all and upon all them that believe

...all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3

Without attaching any peculiarly evil tendencies to Mary, I'd say that the passage covers all of mankind pretty coherently wouldn't you?

And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.
Luke 23:50-51

Joseph was a "good" man, yet he too had a flesh nature which was ultimately wicked before God and he needed a savior.

<In fact there are many people who not only have not sinned but who cannot sin, among them infants and the mentally infirm. Such people do not have the mental capacity required to make an act of the will to reject God.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalms 58:3 (KJV)

Babies, though "innocent" have a completely selfish nature that is not the nature of God. They need to be born again just like everyone else. God may not hold them accountable until they reach the "age of accountability", but they are born with a corrupt nature.

In short, it must be true that absolutely no one does what is right, ever! But that conclusion flatly contradicts scripture, which explicitly speaks of righteous men who walk with God: Job, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, those mentioned in Psalm 14, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and so on.

All these had the nature of Adam. Relative to the relationship and covenant of God, they worked righteousness. Moses and those under Law suffered because the Word says that their conscience could never be purged by the blood of animals.

It also flatly contradicts actual experience, because the world is full of people who more often than not choose to do good when offered the opportunity to do evil... hopefully some of us are among them.

As "good" as people may be by the world's standards, they cannot walk in God's love. Their righteousness is as filthy rags.

So the idea that Mary must have sinned based on passages such as Romans 3:23 falls flat on its own face.

The Word is forever settled in Heaven. Don't add to the Words lest you be found a liar. Mary sinned because like all since Adam, her soul had the nature of death in it. To contradict this is to contradict the Word.

Remember...

...Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
...They are all gone out of the way
...all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3
..all have sinned and come short

 

[chilehed]

...Remember...

...Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
...They are all gone out of the way
...all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3
..all have sinned and come short

You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life.

So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.

Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.

 

[silence_dogood]

You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life.

So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.

Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.

If Mary was without sin, then why did she go to the temple to make sacrifiices for her sin?

 

[Alive_Again]

Chilehed said...

You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life.

And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luke 23:50-52

Every instance and without exception? Truly within the context of scripture, sometimes statements from multiple passages can be misleading (i.e., Joseph was called a "good" man and Jesus said, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God."

Joseph exhibited "good" traits, yet Jesus points out that only God is truly good. He acknowledged that everything that was of Him was from the Father, who alone was good.

Outside of the context of that, Jesus said...

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Matt 20:15

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:11

Your goodness is a fruit of abiding in God. Jesus was our example.

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things:
Matt 12:33-35

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:15

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:29

Concerning Stephen, his good fruit was of the Holy Ghost...

For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
Acts 11:24

So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.

You are quick to assume things "fall apart". We're talking about the context of the passage in question (That's where the truth lies.), not every instance of a word.

The passage is literally talking about ALL MEN. Jews and Gentiles. From a Jew's perspective, there are no others. Those who have the Law and those who do not.

...Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
...They are all gone out of the way
...all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3
..all have sinned and come short

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:9-12

All men are born under sin and walk in paths that are not of the Lord. Consequently, all are guilty. The Jew walked in the Mosaic Covenant. There was a limited "righteousness" by doing all that there was therein. If you did what God asked, in that covenant, and even before, you were considered "righteous" or in right standing with God.

There are none who walk in the righteousness of God (which is what He requires). All come short and need a savior.

 

[Alive_Again]

More Chilehed...

Regarding righteousness...

In short, it must be true that absolutely no one does what is right, ever! But that conclusion flatly contradicts scripture, which explicitly speaks of righteous men who walk with God: Job, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, those mentioned in Psalm Zechariah and Elizabeth, and so on.

Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.

As I said before, the Jew walked in the Mosaic Covenant. There was a limited "righteousness" by doing all that there was therein. If you did what God asked, in that covenant, and even before, you were considered "righteous" or in right standing with God. When considering logical fallacies consider the context (real meaning) of statements before quickly dismissing what you don't fully understand.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:3

Lot was called righteous...

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.
2 Peter 2:7-8

From the context of every man having a corrupt nature, since the "death" of Adam...

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:10

In the new covenant, we receive righteousness as a gift.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:13-18

The last Adam, Jesus gives us His divine nature to live within us. It is the Kingdom of God.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Cor 15:45-50

Many suffer from a spirit of self righteousness (attacks pretty much all of us), because we know we must obey God (Some people don't believe this!). If you can't get settled in righteousness as a free gift, you cannot work righteous works from the rest of God (the true sabbath).

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romans 4:6-8

By receiving the gift of righteousness, we can walk righteously and are regenerated or renewed by the Spirit of God. We bear the righteous fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:5-7

According to scripture, we'll still be judged by our fruit. The divine nature within us gives us the ability to work the works of righteousness. If we do, we'll be renewed. If not, we'll inherit corruption.

The Law is still around for the disobedient...

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1 Tim 1:9-11

The definition of righteous hasn't changed. It's been enlarged. We're required to fulfill righteousness by bearing the fruit of the incorruptible divine nature.

Some can't receive this because they feel that no matter what they do, if they were legitimately born again, they will be saved. We're still accountable before God for the fruit we bear. "Our (our fleshly) works can't save us. We can work the works of God and bear fruit. It's all by grace.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Matt 3:14-15

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:21-22

So our works count for righteousness as acts of obedience, from the rest of faith. They're the righteous works of God, fruits of the Holy Spirit.

2 natures. Live by the Spirit = no condemnation. Live by the flesh, inherit corruption.

You can't go past "go" until you've received righteousness as a gift. If you need to, stay home and just meditate on the gift of righteousness and agree with it with your lips and rebuke any "feeling" or thought that says YOU have to do anything. If they're YOUR works, they're filthy, unrighteous rags. If you receive the gift of righteousness, you'll receive a spotless garment, the "robe of righteousness". It's found within the rest of faith.

 

[chilehed]

If Mary was without sin, then why did she go to the temple to make sacrifiices for her sin?

There is a very simple and reasonable answer to that, but it's off-topic.

The topic of this thread is the fact that the passage in Romans 3 doesn't prove that she sinned.

 

[chilehed]

Chilehed said...

You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life.​

And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luke 23:50-52

Every instance and without exception? ...

You spend an awful lot of time talking about things other than the topic of this thread. This is a common strategy: to try to bury someone in verses on an unrelated topic, none of which actually support your conclusion, and steadfastly refuse to look closely at any single one of them lest you find out that you don't understand it.

The topic of this thread is Romans 3:23, and the question of whether that passage of scripture proves that Mary sinned.

I won't repost the OP which describes how it's a quote from the Psalms, nor will I repost the discussion of the use of the word "all" in Scripture and in common usage. It's patently obvious that you've not read them, or are completely ignoring them, or both.

Please stay on topic.

 

[silence_dogood]

There is a very simple and reasonable answer to that, but it's off-topic.

No it's not. The topic of the thread is whether or not Mary sinned.

Given that Romans 3:23 is subject to the analogy of scripture, then it's perfectly reasonable and on topic to discuss other verses and their relationship to Romans 3:23.

 

[chilehed]

No it's not. The topic of the thread is whether or not Mary sinned...

Excuse me, but I started the thread, not you, I've repeatedly specified that the thread is NOT about whether or not Mary sinned.

Any objective reader should be able to tell from studying the OP that the topic is the narrow point of whether or not Romans 3:23 can reasonably be used to say that she did. Please confine your remarks to the topic, or go elsewhere.

If you can make a reasonable case for claiming that Luke 2:22-24 is relevant to this discussion, than you can do so. But arguments like "Luke 2 proves she sinned, therefore Romans 3:23 proves she sinned" are not reasonable, and asking "what about Luke 2" isn't even an argument.

 

[silence_dogood]

Excuse me, but I started the thread, not you, I've repeatedly specified that the thread is NOT about whether or not Mary sinned.

Any objective reader should be able to tell from studying the OP that the topic is the narrow point of whether or not Romans 3:23 can reasonably be used to say that she did. Please confine your remarks to the topic, or go elsewhere.

OK. I understand why the question would make you uncomfortable. I won't embarrass you anymore.

 

[chilehed]

OK. I understand why the question would make you uncomfortable. I won't embarrass you anymore.

LOL. Ad hominem remarks only prove that you don't have a coherent argument. You've conceded that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.

 

[silence_dogood]

LOL. Ad hominem remarks only prove that you don't have a coherent argument. You've conceded that Romans 3:23 does prove that Mary sinned.

I see. So then, since by your standards, this is an ad hominem attack, you must have concluded that the Bible is correct and Romans 3:23 shows that Mary sinned.

 

[Alive_Again]

chilehed

*Let me first say that as Christians, we should be seeking the wisdom of God from a position of Christian love. If you believe you have some understanding of the scriptures, then understand that...

The wisdom from above is easy to be entreated.
Love does not behave unseemly.
When you "speak" to me, do so like you're talking to Jesus, because as you do to me, you do to Him.
Also, remember those who offend will go to a place where you don't want to go.

This talk of a "lack of a coherent rebuttal", "logical fallacies" based on your perception of what you feel is a change of terminology, "absurd notions" that one word means the same thing in all circumstances "without exception" or my argument "falling apart" lacks the common decency you'd show your family members (we are your family).

So, can we can resume addressing your questions(s) without being made to feel that you have no patience to engage in a meaningful discussion, in Christian love? I say "questions" - (plural because you've made some additional statements beyond your OP that require addressing) They're not off topic, because you made them.

There are very good pearls in this chapter which we examine and appreciate. Let's behave ourselves worthily and try to come to an understanding. Right?

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:23

<Any objective reader should be able to tell from studying the OP that the topic is the narrow point of whether or not Romans 3:23 can reasonably be used to say that she did.

From the OP: It&#8217;s common to hear non-Catholics point to Romans 3:23 (&#8220;for all have sinned and fallen sort of the glory of God&#8221 as evidence that Mary must have sinned.

Part of OP: So in order to say that verses such as these must mean that Mary sinned, one must first say that Mary must have been evil, boastful, foolish, greedy or wicked - because those verses are speaking of evil, boastful, foolish, greedy and wicked people.

As I have stated, the passage points out that the nature of man is corrupt. Although the Psalms they make reference to may seem to point out exceptionally bad qualities, there is an inherent wickedness that is inherited by all men and women as a result of Adam's sin. I previously listed the scriptures about the first Adam and the last Adam. The scriptures provide a picture of the totality of mankind needing a savior as a result of Adam.

Part of OP: Furthermore, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" doesn't demand a universal meaning, in the same way as "everyone in town showed up for the parade" doesn't mean that every single individual in every house turned out.

"Everyone showed up for the parade" doesn't come close to "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." When the Word says that "All have sinned", it means what it said. ALL HAVE SINNED.

I pointed out the many uses of the term "ALL" in the passage in Romans 3, which provides the overall context for Romans 3:23. You won't fully understand 3:23 without seeing it from the "chapter's perspective", so don't ignore the big picture in an attempt to somehow stay on the OP. This does relate to the OP.

<You previously stated:
<You seem to be clinging to the absurd notion that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. As has been shown, that's not how the word is used in the Bible and it's not how it's used in everyday life. So unless you can demonstrate that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception, your argument falls apart.

<In short, it must be true that absolutely no one does what is right, ever! But that conclusion flatly contradicts scripture, which explicitly speaks of righteous men who walk with God: Job, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, those mentioned in Psalm 14, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and so on.

In my last post your confine the word "ALL" is supposed to have a universal meaning in every scriptural reference.

I went on to demonstrate that "good" is a relative term. The context in Romans 3 is that all are evil, even though God describes certain men as "good". These men obey God and are called "good", but they like Adam have a corrupt nature. As a result all sin. Romans 3 indicates that ALL sin. Is Mary part of ALL? I'll let you decide that. There are no "absolutes without exception" outside of the context.

<To which you state:
<You spend an awful lot of time talking about things other than the topic of this thread. This is a common strategy: to try to bury someone in verses on an unrelated topic, none of which actually support your conclusion, and steadfastly refuse to look closely at any single one of them lest you find out that you don't understand it.

My "common strategy" is to address your presumptions. It's related because they address your defense of "good" character traits that people like Abraham and Enoch have.

<I won't repost the OP which describes how it's a quote from the Psalms, nor will I repost the discussion of the use of the word "all" in Scripture and in common usage. It's patently obvious that you've not read them, or are completely ignoring them, or both.
Please stay on topic.

I'm familiar with them. In spite of the reference to other scriptures, the direct explanation of whether or not all sin in Romans 3:23 is found in the preceeding verses of Romans 3. That is the topic. It addresses them completely. You made the assumption that ALL doesn't mean ALL. All Jews and Gentiles. That covers everyone. None righteous. No not one. There were no exceptions.

<Also, you're changing the definition of righteous in the middle of the argument, which is another logical fallacy.

I also took the trouble to give you a scriptural background about righteousness, since you accuse me of changing the definition. It was never changed. It's defined in more than one location. I provided you a perspective from the Word that covers my reference to the use of righteousness.

<You completely ignore the topic of the thread, which I take as an admission that you have no coherent rebuttal.

It has been effectively demonstrated by Paul, that ALL means all people have an unrighteous nature without Jesus. All are under sin, including Mary. Do you believe you can rebutt the Word?

 

[Hairy Tic]

I thought this thread was dead - nice to see it alive

 

[chilehed]

chilehed

*Let me first say that as Christians, we should be seeking the wisdom of God from a position of Christian love. If you believe you have some understanding of the scriptures, then understand that...

The wisdom from above is easy to be entreated.
Love does not behave unseemly.
When you "speak" to me, do so like you're talking to Jesus, because as you do to me, you do to Him.
Also, remember those who offend will go to a place where you don't want to go.

This talk of a "lack of a coherent rebuttal", "logical fallacies" based on your perception of what you feel is a change of terminology, "absurd notions" that one word means the same thing in all circumstances "without exception" or my argument "falling apart" lacks the common decency you'd show your family members (we are your family).

So, can we can resume addressing your questions(s) without being made to feel that you have no patience to engage in a meaningful discussion, in Christian love? ...

I can't help the fact that you're offended when someone points out that your arguments are logically flawed, or that you think that Christian charity demands I ignore it in a discussion such as this. If you wish to convince me of the error of my position then you'll need to do so with logical arguments, and if your arguments are irrational then I'll tell you so.

If you'd like to begin addressing the topic of the thread, then by all means please do so. So far you've completely ignored it, and unless you decide to change that then we have nothing to talk about. If you like then you can start by explaining why I should accept the idea that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. It might help if you looked through the thread to see why I believe it does not.

 

[Alive_Again]

If you like then you can start by explaining why I should accept the idea that the word all necessarily means every instance without exception. It might help if you looked through the thread to see why I believe it does not.

Before I address your offensive words I will say that no one is required to demonstrate why the use of any word means exactly the same thing in every instance. That has nothing to do with the passage. Obviously in language there are figures of speech like in English "cool" = cold or "cool" = insensitive and indifferent.

As far as "Everyone turned out for the parade", not meaning everyone, that is not the Word of God. I believe God means what He says. If God didn't mean everyone, He wouldn't have said everyone.

If you want to understand the truth in a passage of scripture you always look to the context that the statement was made in. Even you though make mention of the Psalms that formed the basis for the "none righteous" part, you wish to ignore the context of the chapter and focus on Rom 3:23 as though that one sentence on its own lacks the substance to prove that Mary sinned.

The context of the chapter indicates that every man sinned. All Jews and Gentiles -- That covers everyone. The word "all" is included so many times to further illustrate that the whole of mankind.

"No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:9-12

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Romans 3:19

...let God be true, but every man a liar Romans 3
...we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin Romans 3
...there is none righteous, no, not one Romans 3
...there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God Romans 3
...they are all gone out of the way Romans 3
...there is none that doeth good, Romans 3
...no, not one Romans 3
...that every mouth may be stopped Romans 3
...all the world may become guilty before God Romans 3
...for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3

I demonstrated in my previous post every one of your objections and now you say that "everyone of my arguments are "logically flawed". Rather, they are flawless but it is clearly demonstrated through the Word of God, your final authority, that ALL men, Jews and Gentiles are found to be sinners.

Instead of "completely ignoring" it, I've reiterated my comments concerning "ALL" in this single post. People twist scriptures when they take things out of context. We have confined your question and my answer to the context of the chapter. It is simple to them that understand.

I believe the whole point to the chapter is to prove that all men need a savior, Jesus. ALL need the grace of God, because they are sinners with a corrupt nature.

It's distasteful to keep pointing to anyone's sin, much less Mary's. Mary no doubt was a "good" woman, but she like everyone else had a nature that was subject to vanity. That's why Jesus came. He didn't require a sinless mother. Jesus died for ALL men's sins.

 

[Standing Up]

David had a perfect heart before God, yet confessed he was conceived in sin.

1 Kings 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Mary may be similar.

Hope that helps.

 

[chilehed]

Before I address your offensive words I will say that no one is required to demonstrate why the use of any word means exactly the same thing in every instance. ...

Unless they are assuming that it does, which is what you are doing. Your entire line of reasoning is based on the assumption that all necessarily means every instance without exception. Since that assumption is not only unproven but demonstrably false, your argument collapses.

Jesus said that the mustard is the smallest of all seeds, when in fact it is far from the smallest of all seeds without exception: it's only the smallest of those plants which were cultivated in Israel at the time. The gospel records that all the people of Jerusalem were frightened when the Magi brought word of the newborn King of the Jews, but we know of at least one person who was waiting for him in eagerness. The gospels all record that all the Jews called for Jesus to be crucified, but we know that it wasn't every Jew without exception, nor was it even every Jew who was present at the time.

You claim that the passage must be speaking about every individual Jew and every individual Gentile without exception, but it doesn't actually say that. In fact, the grammatical structure could just as well be taken to mean Jews and Gentiles as a class, and the context indicates to me that that's what it's doing.

You're using your own fallible human reasoning to come to a conclusion about what Scripture means, and then confusing your conclusion with actual Scripture.

So when you tell me that the Romans 3:23 proves that Mary must have sinned, and yet the texts itself don't support your position, then I'm gonna believe Scripture rather than you.

 

[Alive_Again]

Your entire line of reasoning is based on the assumption that all necessarily means every instance without exception. Since that assumption is not only unproven but demonstrably false, your argument collapses.

First of all, since it's not my word, but the scripture, we're on the solid rock and nothing is collapsing! This is so foundational, I'm surprised anyone would think to contradict. To exempt someone from the rest of mankind from the state of what Catholics call "original sin" just because they are going to birth the Christ seems incredible and attaches a status to Mary that is unfounded. Why exalt Mary to a position that is idolatrous? Hearing and answering prayers, giving graces, etc.? Make her without sin to do this?

The instance we are referring to "without exception" is within Romans 3, not the entire Bible, and not outside of the context of this passage.

Within the context of Romans 3, scripture demonstrates that all of mankind (Jews and Gentiles/non-Jews) had a nature that didn't seek after God within the righteousness that God required and needed a savior. This is actually pretty easy to believe. You don't really just look at Romans 3:23, you look at Romans 3.

You could state that ALL sinning might also include the angels in Heaven, which we know have not sinned. So splitting hairs about including the entire creation (or smaller than mustard seeds) rather than the context intended is not profitable for seeking the truth. This is what lawyers do. Then only want you to answer their limited piece of "truth" and no more (lest they get the whole truth).

In fact, the grammatical structure could just as well be taken to mean Jews and Gentiles as a class, and the context indicates to me that that's what it's doing.

You can do that if you want. The passage below seems pretty clear. If it were the only one, it would seem to summarize the point nicely.

"...all the world may become guilty before God."
Romans 3:19

That's why we need a savior. That's why Mary needed a savior. The blood of bulls couldn't purge her conscience. We need the divine nature and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to have abundant and eternal life.

You're using your own fallible human reasoning to come to a conclusion about what Scripture means, and then confusing your conclusion with actual Scripture.

I'm quoting the Word of God, not my own fallible human reasoning. I'm receiving it as a little child. The whole New Testament is about the sinful nature of man being redeemed by the promised Messiah.

In the bigger picture, we know from Adam onward, spiritual death was the order for all men. Our salvation is dependent on our being "in" Christ. We receive from Him. He's the door. No one outside of that door gets in and everyone needed to get in to be saved. There weren't any exceptions. It you ask God, He'll show you.

There were none of the righteous that God requires. Not even one. Joshua walked upright before God and led the Israelites into their inheritance. He was clothed with filthy garments before the Angel of the Lord. His righteousness was as a filthy rag.

God confounds the wise who by wisdom or good deeds seek salvation, but the righteousness of God is received as a gift by faith. Everyone enters in by faith. Mary received her righteousness by faith, just like you or I.

So when you tell me that the Romans 3:23 proves that Mary must have sinned, and yet the texts itself don't support your position, then I'm gonna believe Scripture rather than you.

That sounds nice, but if you're going to do that, why don't you receive it as Romans 3 preaches it.

The context of the entire chapter, says that every man, Jew and Gentile, no one is righteous, all sin, no one understands, everyone is out of the way; all the world is guilty.

Do I sound confused with such convincing evidence?

...let God be true, but every man a liar Romans 3
...we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin Romans 3
...there is none righteous, no, not one Romans 3
...there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God Romans 3
...they are all gone out of the way Romans 3
...there is none that doeth good, Romans 3
...no, not one Romans 3
...that every mouth may be stopped Romans 3
...all the world may become guilty before God Romans 3
...for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3

 

[Kepha]

If John the Baptist were the greatest born of woman (including Mary), and He needed to be baptized (repentance), why exalt Mary to a position that is idolatrous? Hearing and answering prayers, giving graces, etc.? Make her without sin to do this?

Jesus was born of a woman. He sinned as well? In context it was speaking about all the OT prophets and not everyone born of a woman.

I also found it interesting you quoted Romans to say there were no righteous yet read on to discover there were righteous. Contridiction or yet another example to what the OP was saying originally with even his own verse. I'll take the latter.

You also appear to to mock original sin yet I noticed protestants on here are so eager to make the claim that sin = corrupt flesh in the 'all have sinned' verse and not personal sin at all. Your flesh remains corrupt even after you believe and are baptized. So you're still a sinner since corrupt flesh = sin?