All have sinned?

[chilehed]

Ok friend. What would you like to talk about with 23? Why didn't Paul exempt her from 3:23?

You haven't thought very hard about what I said in the OP. He was discusing the wicked... do you think that anyone would have thought that he was including her among the wicked, so that he'd have to specify that he wasn't speaking of her?

Go back and closely study the OP.

 

[addo]

And does "no one" mean individuals?

St. Paul says in that same chapter of Romans that ""There is no one righteous, not even one". Scripture says:

Genesis 6:9
This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God

Matthew 1:19
19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

Luke 1:6
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Were these people "righteous" from birth? Besides, the Scriptures say that faith is counted as righteousness for the men of God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6; James 2:23) So what am I saying? I have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:9). And so was with the rest of the examples above. Why was Noah "righteous"? Because He believed God, His teachings and His warning. Why was Joseph considered righteous? Because he was a God-fearing man and had faith in the Almighty. And so is with the rest. If I would have the time, I would go trough all of them. They had faith in God and it was credited to them as righteousness.

St. Paul says in Romans 3 that there is "no one who seeks God". Scripture says that:

2 Chronicles 15:15-15
12 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul. 13 All who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. 14 They took an oath to the LORD with loud acclamation, with shouting and with trumpets and horns. 15 All Judah rejoiced about the oath because they had sworn it wholeheartedly. They sought God eagerly, and he was found by them. So the LORD gave them rest on every side.

2 Chronicles 34:1-3
1 Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one years. 2 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and walked in the ways of his father David, not turning aside to the right or to the left. 3 In the eighth year of his reign, while he was still young, he began to seek the God of his father David. In his twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem of high places, Asherah poles, carved idols and cast images.

Ezra 6:21
21 So the Israelites who had returned from the exile ate it, together with all who had separated themselves from the unclean practices of their Gentile neighbors in order to seek the Lord, the God of Israel.

Ezra 4:2
2 they came to Zerubbabel and to the heads of the families and said, "Let us help you build because, like you, we seek your God and have been sacrificing to him since the time of Esarhaddon king of Assyria, who brought us here."

Psalms 27:8
8 My heart says of you, "Seek his face!" Your face, Lord, I will seek.

Psalms 63:1
1 O God, you are my God, earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you, my body longs for you, in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Psalms 119:10
10 I seek you with all my heart; do not let me stray from your commands.

Jeremiah 29:13
13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


St. Paul says in Romans 3 that "there is no one who does good, not even one". Scripture says:

1 Kings 14:13
13 All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only one belonging to Jeroboam who will be buried, because he is the only one in the house of Jeroboam in whom the Lord, the God of Israel, has found anything good.

2 Kings 20:3
3 "Remember, O Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

2 Chronicles 14:2
2 Asa did what was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God.

2 Chronicles 24:16
16 He was buried with the kings in the City of David, because of the good he had done in Israel for God and his temple.


Nehemiah 6:19
19 Moreover, they kept reporting to me his good deeds and then telling him what I said. And Tobiah sent letters to intimidate me.

Esther 10:3
3 Mordecai the Jew was second in rank to King Xerxes, preeminent among the Jews, and held in high esteem by his many fellow Jews, because he worked for the good of his people and spoke up for the welfare of all the Jews.

Isaiah 38:3
3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

Acts 9:36
36 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas ), who was always doing good and helping the poor.

So?

"No one" isn't making a statement about specific individuals anymore than "all" is, unless one is content with Scripture contradicting itself.

Not really. All have sinned. There is none sinless. This is Scriptures. There is none sinless other that The Sinless One. And, this is what is written.

 

[addo]

I forgot: narnia59, I was quoting Kings. Why did you bring up what Paul said in Romans?

 

[Frogster]

So Jesus was not unclean because "the prince is above the law" (princeps legibus solutus est)?

You also have failed to show how ritual uncleanliness is the same as sin. Animals can be ritually unclean, does that mean animals are sinners? Indeed, even inanimate objects can be ritually unclean, does that mean these objects are sinners? Women are ritually unclean for menstruating, is menstruation a sin? Being a leper makes someone unclean, is it a sin to contract a disease? Touching a dead person makes someone ritually unclean, is burying people a sin?



So you believe that ritual uncleanliness is sin. Here we have a "holy thing", a sacrifice which is a "perpetual ordinance", that causes the priests who participate in the sacrifice to be unclean. So to you, God commands people to sin against Him as a way of worshiping Him.

Clearly, you have a different definition of "sin" than I do.

Here is a Jewish perspective on "ritual impurity" and its relationship to sin.



I also, for the record, do not grant that the Mother of God was ritually unclean because she gave birth to Christ -- Christ cleanses the world, He does not defile it. The woman who was bleeding touched the hem of His garment and was made clean, He touched the lepers and they were made clean, yet you think that Christ defiled His Holy Mother?

You are avoiding the isssue, I did not say uncleanliness was sin. Show me where I said that. I DID however say, that if you call her unclean, bound by levitical law, then you have to apply whe whole law, and she sinned under that law, because only Jesus fulfilled it, not mary. ALL SINNED.

 

[Frogster]

You haven't thought very hard about what I said in the OP. He was discusing the wicked... do you think that anyone would have thought that he was including her among the wicked, so that he'd have to specify that he wasn't speaking of her?

Go back and closely study the OP.

Paul said no good thing dwells in his flesh. That was the Adamic creation, that unless you can prove otherwise, Mary was born into!

DO YOU KNOW WHAT FLESH IS? You need to do an exhaustive study of Romans. Besides, it say sall. You are arguing from omission.

Why does it say.."every mouth", and "no human"?

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

What your doing under the guise of saying.."off topic" is a form of prooftexting. Besides, it says all, all were in Adam, all were in the flesh. IN THE VERY BOOK YOU SEEK TO USE, TO PROVE YOUR INCORRECT POINT.

Why didn't Paul exclude Mary, so the Roman church, could have this full knowledge, and they too can "venerate?

 

[Frogster]

Mary was under law.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

 

[Tangible]

The woman, Mary, gave birth physically to Christ and gives birth spiritually to those who follow Christ, the Church.

Only one who births us Spiritually and it is God Himself. For He is Spirit and those who worship must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Isn't it scary how this stuff ends up ascribing to Mary things that are rightfully ascribed to God alone? What was that first commandment thingy again? Oh yeah. No other gods.

 

[MamaZ]

Isn't it scary how this stuff ends up ascribing to Mary things that are rightfully ascribed to God alone? What was that first commandment thingy again? Oh yeah. No other gods.

It is scary actually.

 

[jckstraw72]

It is scary actually.

if it was actually true it might be scary

 

[Tangible]

if it was actually true it might be scary

Jack, you must admit that "giv[ing] birth spiritually to those who follow Christ" is something that the Holy Spirit and ONLY the Holy Spirit does. PTC is totally giving Mary credit for the work of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Frogster]

people are projecting a god image wiith mary. She was flesh too.

 

[Vendetta]

Just because some Catholics may put Mary on a level with God does not mean that Catholic doctrine puts Mary on a level with God. No Christian (and certainly not Catholic) doctrine claims that Mary is God. End of story. I admit that the sinlessness of Mary is one of the most difficult points of Catholic doctrine to believe. Still, Catholic doctrine is consistent, and certainly when the Church canonized scripture they had no problem with much of the Marian doctrine that is contested today (although, admittedly, some of that Marian doctrine was only formally dogmatized after the canonization).

 

[MaidenHisImage]

Narnia, please, your points in rebuttal are excellent but responding to this line merely plays into the further hijacking of the thread. This is utterly off-topic.

If you don't mind, I really like the "interruptions" be included please...pretty please.

I'm a converting Catholic and the Catholics in this thread have me busy taking notes and keeping my nose in the Bible. I haven't been spiritually "fed" like this in quite a while. The question you pose has a lot of meat on it. The posts Narnia is replying to are gravy! What a spiritual workout! Woo hoo!

 

[MaidenHisImage]

Ew.

All this AKA "The tail wagging the dog." There isn't even a hint of these assertions in scripture.

(Poor Mary. I don't think she would feel very blessed having her personal bodily functions openly debated.)

There's no mention of the Trinity in there or the Rapture, etc...and yet it's there.

I think Mary wouldn't mind as long as it's pointing others to Jesus. It has me considering awesome things about God I never did before.

 

[chilehed]

If you don't mind, I really like the "interruptions" be included please...pretty please.

I'm a converting Catholic and the Catholics in this thread have me busy taking notes and keeping my nose in the Bible. I haven't been spiritually "fed" like this in quite a while. The question you pose has a lot of meat on it. The posts Narnia is replying to are gravy! What a spiritual workout! Woo hoo!

Hey, I'm a member of the 2004 Tiber Swim Team myself! How could I possibly refuse such a plea? Not that I can really stop it anyway...

Frogster's argument is essentially "this other unrelated passage supports my position, therefore this passage must support it as well - so I don't really have to deal with the OP at all". Of course his idea that ritual uncleanliness equals sinfulness is absolute nonsense and it leads inexorably to the conlusion that Christ was sinful, but he refuses to admit it. It's an utterly irrational position.

May God richly bless you on your journey home, and may our Blessed Mother lift you up in prayer to the Lord.

 

[MaidenHisImage]

Hey, I'm a member of the 2004 Tiber Swim Team myself! How could I possibly refuse such a plea?

Thanks so much chilehed and congrats.

Swim team...he he. That's cute.

True, the topic won't stay on topic, but after learning all I have in this thread, I'm glad they got off topic. It all helps with my journey.

God bless you.

 

[addo]

No one is answering my posts?

 

[chilehed]

No one is answering my posts?

I'm not answering them because they aren't related to the topic of the thread.

Remember, the topic of the thread is NOT that Mary was sinless. The topic is whether or not Romans 3:23 can reasonably be used to say that she wasn't.

Have you very carefully read the OP?

 

[MamaZ]

I'm not answering them because they aren't related to the topic of the thread.

Remember, the topic of the thread is NOT that Mary was sinless. The topic is whether or not Romans 3:23 can reasonably be used to say that she wasn't.

Have you very carefully read the OP?

this has been addressed already..

 

[addo]

I always, when I read Romans, I think that Paul really believed he made it clear that all have sinned. Looks like he wasn't so clear after all. [/ironic]