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MamaZ
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So all in some eyes do not mean all in others eyes. Each individual has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God or there would be no need for a savior would there be?
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So all in some eyes do not mean all in others eyes. Each individual has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God or there would be no need for a savior would there be?If you got that out of that, you didn't read it very well.
The point is that because Scripture says "all" have sinned that does not prove any specific individual sinned. That is not the sense in which Scripture uses terms such as all, every, none, each, etc. There are often exceptions to the rule even noted in Scripture. Some would say that makes Scripture contradict itself. Nope, it means one needs to understand what Scripture means when it says "all".
Paul is quoting Psalm 14 in that passage from Romans, which is a reference not to people in general but to 'fools'. He is tired of the foolishness that is pitting the Gentiles and Jews against each other. He's basically saying that there is no difference between the Gentiles and Jews, both groups are sinners and need salvation.
I think Catholics are quite clear that Mary's salvation came through Christ her Savior. People seem to not be able to understand that one does not have to fall into sin to be saved from sin. Being saved from falling into sin in the first place is still being saved from sin, is it not?So all in some eyes do not mean all in others eyes. Each individual has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God or there would be no need for a savior would there be?
What I'm saying is very well said in the OP, and it's not what you just said. Go back and study the OP.Interesting! So you are saying that there are those who are completely righteous, those who do not need a Savior and are not, therefore, part of the "ALL" in Romans 3:23?
Yours and His,
David
What makes you ask that? I honestly don't understand how someone who read the OP could ask such a question, because I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.So then Abraham didn't sin? nor Enoch nor Job nor Moses?
What I'm saying is very well said in the OP, and it's not what you just said. Go back and study the OP.
OK.I re-read your OP Chilehed and I'm afraid to say that I'm drawing the same conclusions that I did to begin with. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding what you are trying to get at, so please be patient.
Yes. I presume that you've read the passages, as well as the one in Isaiah.You said the Psalms Paul quoted in Romans 3 contrasted "evildoers" with the "righteous" and pointed out that this proves there are some who are, indeed, righteous (correct so far?).
I'm merely pointing out that the fact that you can't jump to the conclusion that everyone without exception has sinned merely because Sacred Scripture says that all fools and evildoers have.[But this, of course, begs the next question, are these certain or special people ALWAYS righteous in everything they do (past, present and future), or do you mean they are still sinners, but just not as bad of sinners as the other folks mentioned in the Psalms ..
Mary is not an angel either.The angels in heaven are without sin, and they are not God. Sinlessness is not an attribute reserved for God. I find no Scripture that says only Jesus is without sin.
You're exactly right. It would mean a way to salvation apart from Christ.You know, another thing occurs to me as I think about how Mary was saved from her sins and from having a sin "nature", if it's true, why did God choose to do that for her alone? I mean, if it works for one created being, why not for all of us ..
This would also allow us to put this MESS that out progenitors created for us ... by eating that apple ... behind us once and for all. For that matter, why would God, who calls us all to be holy, righteous and sinless before Him, make that impossible for everyone, but one? I understand that she was the vessel that would give birth to Jesus, but what gain could there be for Him (or for us) to leave us in this sinful condition if He didn't have to?
Does this make sense to anyone or am I really off base here ..
Thanks!
Yours and His,
David
I'm merely pointing out that the fact that you can't jump to the conclusion that everyone without exception has sinned merely because Sacred Scripture says that all fools and evildoers have.
As I pointed out in the OP, there are tens of millions of people in the world who cannot sin, and I'm sure you know some of them. I know that I do. It really does seem as if you haven't actually absorbed what I've written, so I'm not sure that I see any point in continuing our conversation.Unless we can name someone who we know has not sinned .. EVER, any discussion about the word "All" in Romans 3:23 meaning anything less than EVERYONE is rendered moot by our own experience.
There's no scripture that says "the word all in Romans 3:23 is intended to indicate every person in all times without exception". That's something that you've made up out of thin air; it's not supported by scripture and it violates actual experience.Sin is universal, the ALL means everyone, everywhere, since the Fall.
What happened to Eve was that she chose to sin. She didn't have to do that.One final thought about all this, if Mary was conceived w/o a sinful nature and was able to live a life without sinning as a result, what happened to Eve?...
The word all doesn't necessarily mean every instance without exception.So all does not mean all? It is just a suggestion that some are but others are not?
It makes sense and that is a very reasonable question.You know, another thing occurs to me as I think about how Mary was saved from her sins and from having a sin "nature", if it's true, why did God choose to do that for her alone? I mean, if it works for one created being, why not for all of us ..
This would also allow us to put the MESS that our progenitors created for us ... by eating that apple ... behind us once and for all. For that matter, why would God, who calls us all to be holy, righteous and sinless before Him, make that impossible for everyone, but one? I understand that she was the vessel that would give birth to Jesus, but what gain could there be for Him (or for us) to leave us in this sinful condition if He didn't have to?
Does this make sense to anyone or am I really off base here ..
Thanks!
Yours and His,
David
I never said she was. You, however said that God is the only one who is sinless. The normal implication in this discussion is that because God is the only one who is sinless then to believe Mary is sinless is to equate her with God.Mary is not an angel either.
Mamaz, please point out any of the following Scriptures where 'all' means every single individual:So all does not mean all? It is just a suggestion that some are but others are not?
1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.As I pointed out in the OP, there are tens of millions of people in the world who cannot sin, and I'm sure you know some of them. I know that I do.
There is no scripture that says that - NONE. You've made it up....The only people in existence who cannot sin, other than Our Lord Jesus Christ the God-man, are those who have died and are awaiting resurrection.....
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