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All have sinned?

chilehed

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It’s common to hear non-Catholics point to Romans 3:23 (“for all have sinned and fallen sort of the glory of God”) as evidence that Mary must have sinned.

But Romans 3:23 arises from Romans 3:10-18, where Paul quotes Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, 53 and 140, and Isaiah 59. All of these passages specifically refer to those who are evil, boastful, foolish, greedy, violent, and wicked – the violent devise evil in their hearts, no fool turns to God, the greedy spurn God, no fool is righteous, etc., etc.

Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, and 140 contrast these evildoers with the righteous – so there ARE those who are righteous, those who do not devise evil in their hearts, who do turn to God, etc. etc.

So in order to say that verses such as these must mean that Mary sinned, one must first say that Mary must have been evil, boastful, foolish, greedy or wicked - because those verses are speaking of evil, boastful, foolish, greedy and wicked people.

Furthermore, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" doesn't demand a universal meaning, in the same way as "everyone in town showed up for the parade" doesn't mean that every single individual in every house turned out. Such phrases can (and often do) have a general meaning, and the Catholic position is that it does here. In fact there are many people who not only have not sinned but who cannot sin, among them infants and the mentally infirm. Such people do not have the mental capacity required to make an act of the will to reject God.

If this is not true, if in fact these passages mean that every single person without exception has sinned, then it must also be true that without exception no person brings suit justly, no person pleads truthfully, every person is quick to shed innocent blood, etc., as also described in the passages from the Psalms and Isaiah. In short, it must be true that absolutely no one does what is right, ever! But that conclusion flatly contradicts scripture, which explicitly speaks of righteous men who walk with God: Job, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, those mentioned in Psalm 14, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and so on. It also flatly contradicts actual experience, because the world is full of people who more often than not choose to do good when offered the opportunity to do evil... hopefully some of us are among them.

So the idea that Mary must have sinned based on passages such as Romans 3:23 falls flat on its own face.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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St. Augustine, "On Nature and Grace":--

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. [1Jn 3:5] Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin while they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? Would it be in the language of our author, or in the words of the Apostle John? I put it to you, whether, on having such a question submitted to them, however excellent might have been their sanctity in this body, they would not have exclaimed with one voice: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us?" [1Jn 1:8] But perhaps this their answer would have been more humble than true! Well, but our author has already determined, and rightly determined, "not to place the praise of humility on the side of falsehood." If, therefore, they spoke the truth in giving such an answer, they would have sin, and since they humbly acknowledged it, the truth would be in them; but if they lied in their answer, they would still have sin, because the truth would not be in them.
...
His [Pelagius] opponents adduced the passage, "All have sinned," [Rom 3:23] and he met their statement founded on this with the remark that "the apostle was manifestly speaking of the then existing generation, that is, the Jews and the Gentiles;" but surely the passage which I have quoted, "By one man sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men; in which all have sinned," [Rom 5:12] embraces in its terms the generations both of old and of modern times, both ourselves and our posterity. He adduces also this passage, whence he would prove that we ought not to understand all without exception, when "all" is used: -- "As by the offense of one," he says, "upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One, upon all men unto justification of life." [Rom 5:18] "There can be no doubt," he says, "that not all men are sanctified by the righteousness of Christ, but only those who are willing to obey Him, and have been cleansed in the washing of His baptism." Well, but he does not prove what he wants by this quotation. For as the clause, "By the offense of one, upon all men to condemnation," is so worded that not one is omitted in its sense, so in the corresponding clause, "By the righteousness of One, upon all men unto justification of life," no one is omitted in its sense -- not, indeed, because all men have faith and are washed in His baptism, but because no man is justified unless he believes in Christ and is cleansed by His baptism. The term "all" is therefore used in a way which shows that no one whatever can be supposed able to be saved by any other means than through Christ Himself. For if in a city there be appointed but one instructor, we are most correct in saying: That man teaches all in that place; not meaning, indeed, that all who live in the city take lessons of him, but that no one is instructed unless taught by him. In like manner no one is justified unless Christ has justified him.[/quote]

---

All of have sinned in that all of us are suffering the effects of Original Sin (cf. Rom 5:12) and that all of us over the age of consent have committed actual sins -- by word or deed, by commission or omission. The only two exceptions to this are Our Lord and Our Lady.

Certainly those who are under the age of consent have not committed any actual sins (subjectively). Only very few Protestants would say that children are guilty of sin (someone said on this forum that babies cry because they hate God). But the real problem is simply that if "all" is exhaustive, that must include Christ, which is blasphemy. So "all" must not be exhaustive, which then is not a counter to the belief that the Blessed Virgin was conceived free from Original Sin and committed no actual sins during her life in order to act as reparatrix for the sin of Eve.
 
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Tangible

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Let's let Mary speak for herself shall we?

46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant.
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm;
he has scattered the proud in the thoughts of their hearts;
52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his offspring forever.”
What was that first line, Mary?

“My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

Why would you need a Savior if you were without sin as some would suggest?

"Good question."

What exactly has God done for you - did you say something about showing you mercy?

"for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him"

So God showed you mercy and you need a Savior. It doesn't sound like you were sinless during your life on earth to me.

"Good point."

;)
 
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MrPolo

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Let's let Mary speak for herself shall we?

What was that first line, Mary?

“My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

Why would you need a Savior if you were without sin as some would suggest?

Because she could not be without sin without the work of Christ. :)

Anyway, didn't Luther believe in her sinlessness? I know of some quotes that certainly suggest he did.
 
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narnia59

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Let's let Mary speak for herself shall we?

What was that first line, Mary?

“My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior"

Why would you need a Savior if you were without sin as some would suggest?

"Good question."

What exactly has God done for you - did you say something about showing you mercy?

"for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name. And his mercy is for those who fear him"

So God showed you mercy and you need a Savior. It doesn't sound like you were sinless during your life on earth to me.

"Good point."

;)
She absolutely needed a savior. Through the grace merited by her son (her Savior) she was indeed saved from sin. The only difference is she was saved prior to being touched by sin. Without such grace, she would have fallen into sin with the rest of humanity. A wonderful, saving act by our Lord.

Read the first line again. It is indeed key. "My soul magnifies the Lord". To magnify --

1a : extol, laud
b : to cause to be held in greater esteem or respect
2a : to increase in significance : intensify
b : exaggerate <magnifies every minor issue to crisis proportions>
3: to enlarge in fact or in appearance

A soul with sin cannot 'magnify' the Lord. She is indeed rejoicing over her salvation -- the gift that was given her as the one chosen to give flesh to the Incarnation. A unique gift for a unique role. Her gratitude for it doesn't make her a sinner.
 
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narnia59

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Because she could not be without sin without the work of Christ. :)

Anyway, didn't Luther believe in her sinlessness? I know of some quotes that certainly suggest he did.
Personally yes. He didn't make it doctrine though.
 
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Tangible

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Personally yes. He didn't make it doctrine though.
Perhaps early Luther did, but I'm pretty certain he later set it aside as unscriptural. He did hold to PV though.

narnia59, are you saying that when you repeat the Magnificat that your soul cannot magnify the Lord? Or are you without sin too?

Our souls can indeed magnify the Lord after God has saved us by his free gift of faith. This does not mean that we are without sin. In our flesh we remain sinners until death just like Mary did.

Please explain to me why would one born without need a savior, or why God would need to be merciful to her. If she was truly without sin she would need no savior and would not need God's mercy.

There have only been three people who were created sinless. Two of them later fell into sin. That leaves One.

Mary had a sinful mother and father. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is God in human flesh. That's why he is sinless. And that's why Mary wasn't.
 
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chilehed

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Perhaps early Luther did, but I'm pretty certain he later set it aside as unscriptural. He did hold to PV though.
I don't care in the least what Luther thought. I care what scripture says.

So far no one seems to want to discuss the actual OP, which is about the use of Romans 3:23 in an attempt to prove that MAry sinned.
 
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chilehed

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....It doesn't sound like you were sinless during your life on earth to me....
That's a conclusion that you've drawn from the text, which isn't demanded by the text. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to claim that your opinion is inspired by God. And in any case, your response has nothing to do with the topic.

I guess you don't want to address the actual topic of the thread? That must mean that you agree that Romans 3:23 does not prove that Mary sinned.
 
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narnia59

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Perhaps early Luther did, but I'm pretty certain he later set it aside as unscriptural. He did hold to PV though.
This is the only quote I'm familiar with:
"Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her"

Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968

I'm not familiar of his taking that back, but if you can find it I'd be interested to know. Evidently at one point he clearly believed it was not unscriptural.


narnia59, are you saying that when you repeat the Magnificat that your soul cannot magnify the Lord? Or are you without sin too?

Our souls can indeed magnify the Lord after God has saved us by his free gift of faith. This does not mean that we are without sin. In our flesh we remain sinners until death just like Mary did.
When I repeat the magnificat I am in prayer with Mary, and my hope is that someday by soul will indeed magnify the Lord as hers. In my view, only a fully sanctified soul can 'magnify' the Lord. The rest of us are works in progress.

I disagree with you that the flesh is the root of our sins. Certainly it is a source of weakness. But the more serious sins (like pride) are not those of the flesh. The angels who fell were not hindered by their flesh, and we share a like spiritual nature.

What do you propose happens to you after death that will make you no longer a sinner?

Please explain to me why would one born without need a savior, or why God would need to be merciful to her. If she was truly without sin she would need no savior and would not need God's mercy.
You fail to miss the order that occurs here. The reason Mary was born without sin is soley because of Her Savior and His mercy. Without him, her conception without sin and the grace for her to remain sinless cannot occur. It is totally dependent upon her acceptance of Christ. Is her salvation received in a unique way? Yes, but no more unique than her role in salvation.

There have only been three people who were created sinless. Two of them later fell into sin. That leaves One.
If you can provide a Scripture that specifies the number of people who were created sinless as three, I'll take a look.

Mary had a sinful mother and father. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and is God in human flesh. That's why he is sinless. And that's why Mary wasn't.
Your view of His being sinless is based upon no male to pass on the sin, correct? Yet this in itself requires a miracle for Him to be conceived in this way.

Same with Mary. It required a miracle for her to be conceived without sin. If the power of the Holy Spirit is capable of conceiving Christ without a male father, is He not powerful enough to conceive Mary without sin? This is outside the norm, but that's the definition of miracle, in which God proves to us He's not bound to the normal way of doing things at all.
 
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narnia59

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Did Mary die?
Not dogmatically defined by the Catholic Church (just that she was assumed into heaven at the end of her life). However, most believe she did indeed die and the feast of the Dormition has been celebrated in the Eastern churches for centuries which points to that.
 
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St_Worm2

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Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, and 140 contrast these evildoers with the righteous – so there ARE those who are righteous, those who do not devise evil in their hearts, who do turn to God, etc. etc.


Interesting! So you are saying that there are those who are completely righteous, those who do not need a Savior and are not, therefore, part of the "ALL" in Romans 3:23?

Yours and His,
David
 
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Tangible

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Did Mary die?

If you wish to discuss something other than the topic of the thread, please start a different thread.
I believe what Yukerboy was getting at is this: the wages of sin is death. If Mary died, then she was not sinless. Of course, that isn't an iron-clad case since Enoch didn't die, but was not sinless.

For me it all comes down to this, only God is without sin. Jesus is God. Mary isn't God.
 
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narnia59

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I believe what Yukerboy was getting at is this: the wages of sin is death. If Mary died, then she was not sinless. Of course, that isn't an iron-clad case since Enoch didn't die, but was not sinless.

For me it all comes down to this, only God is without sin. Jesus is God. Mary isn't God.
The angels in heaven are without sin, and they are not God. Sinlessness is not an attribute reserved for God. I find no Scripture that says only Jesus is without sin.

Death can be seen as a corporate consequence of sin, not an individual one. Jesus died, and he was sinless, for he accepted death on our behalf. And your reference to Enoch is correct, as well as Elijah. Yet Scripture says that all have died.
 
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narnia59

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Interesting! So you are saying that there are those who are completely righteous, those who do not need a Savior and are not, therefore, part of the "ALL" in Romans 3:23?

Yours and His,
David
I believe the OP is noting that the term "all" as used in Scripture is not making a statement about any individual person but rather a statement about mankind in general. They are correct. That is the sense in which all, each, every, none, no one, etc. is used in Scripture. One can find individual exceptions because it's not making a statement about individuals at all.

"All" in Romans 3:23 is referring to both Gentiles and Jews and that no group is excluded from needing Christ. In much the same way the Gospel says that "all" the people came out to be baptized by John. It doesn't mean every individual person came to be baptized, but that all different types of people did.

Using the Scripture "all have sinned" to prove that Mary is a sinner is not consistent with the way Scripture uses the term "all".
 
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M

MamaZ

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It’s common to hear non-Catholics point to Romans 3:23 (“for all have sinned and fallen sort of the glory of God”) as evidence that Mary must have sinned.

But Romans 3:23 arises from Romans 3:10-18, where Paul quotes Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, 53 and 140, and Isaiah 59. All of these passages specifically refer to those who are evil, boastful, foolish, greedy, violent, and wicked – the violent devise evil in their hearts, no fool turns to God, the greedy spurn God, no fool is righteous, etc., etc.

Psalms 5, 10, 14, 36, and 140 contrast these evildoers with the righteous – so there ARE those who are righteous, those who do not devise evil in their hearts, who do turn to God, etc. etc.

So in order to say that verses such as these must mean that Mary sinned, one must first say that Mary must have been evil, boastful, foolish, greedy or wicked - because those verses are speaking of evil, boastful, foolish, greedy and wicked people.

Furthermore, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" doesn't demand a universal meaning, in the same way as "everyone in town showed up for the parade" doesn't mean that every single individual in every house turned out. Such phrases can (and often do) have a general meaning, and the Catholic position is that it does here. In fact there are many people who not only have not sinned but who cannot sin, among them infants and the mentally infirm. Such people do not have the mental capacity required to make an act of the will to reject God.

If this is not true, if in fact these passages mean that every single person without exception has sinned, then it must also be true that without exception no person brings suit justly, no person pleads truthfully, every person is quick to shed innocent blood, etc., as also described in the passages from the Psalms and Isaiah. In short, it must be true that absolutely no one does what is right, ever! But that conclusion flatly contradicts scripture, which explicitly speaks of righteous men who walk with God: Job, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, those mentioned in Psalm 14, Zechariah and Elizabeth, and so on. It also flatly contradicts actual experience, because the world is full of people who more often than not choose to do good when offered the opportunity to do evil... hopefully some of us are among them.

So the idea that Mary must have sinned based on passages such as Romans 3:23 falls flat on its own face.
:confused: So then Abraham didn't sin? nor Enoch nor Job nor Moses?
 
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narnia59

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:confused: So then Abraham didn't sin? nor Enoch nor Job nor Moses?
If you got that out of that, you didn't read it very well.

The point is that because Scripture says "all" have sinned that does not prove any specific individual sinned. That is not the sense in which Scripture uses terms such as all, every, none, each, etc. There are often exceptions to the rule even noted in Scripture. Some would say that makes Scripture contradict itself. Nope, it means one needs to understand what Scripture means when it says "all".

Paul is quoting Psalm 14 in that passage from Romans, which is a reference not to people in general but to 'fools'. He is tired of the foolishness that is pitting the Gentiles and Jews against each other. He's basically saying that there is no difference between the Gentiles and Jews, both groups are sinners and need salvation.
 
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