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All has to be fulfilled?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by chunkofcoal, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Apparently there is at stake a much deeper evil/ false teaching of the devil repenting, or the anti-christ (if a person) being saved as if Yahweh's Word and Plan and Purpose could be broken.
    i.e. it is not going to be resolved here in this thread, apparently, nor can it be.
     
  2. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Sigh.

    If you read my posts closely - which you have proven you do not - you would twice have seen me specify that these things aren't even my beliefs. The only thing being discussed is the nature of prophecy. The book of Revelation is a great contrast to Jonah, but if there was another book that provided a better contrast then I'd probably use that instead. Revelation however includes the character of the Antichrist, which is a good example of a character whose free agency is in question. (I didn't even mention Satan. Vis mentioned Satan. READ MORE CLOSELY.)
     
  3. tampasteve

    tampasteve Lutheran Messianic Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    [​IMG]

    Please remember the following, this thread is getting off course:
    *Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
    MOD HAT OFF
     
  4. JohnC2

    JohnC2 Active Member

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    Yet notice that God’s word did not fail in the end. Nineveh was ultimately judged for their wickedness and was completely and utterly destroyed.

    God reserves the right to postpone a judgement, to rescue people out of a judgement, or to preserve people through a judgement. This all happens at His discretion.

    That doesn’t invalidate bible prophecy....
     
  5. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Nineveh ceased to be settled in the 600 CE's, long after the generation of Jonah had died.

    What you're describing is like if Germans (collectively) today or actually several hundreds of years from now were to be punished for what (some of) their ancestors did. Or you being punished for what one of your ancestors did literally hundreds of years in the past.

    Of course one could say the same in this hypothetical scenario: the battle of Armageddon never happens, the Antichrist isn't killed in that battle as scripture says, several hundreds of years later something happens that "counts as" a fulfillment anyway.

    (For the benefit of those who have not been reading closely, or who cannot grasp the concepts of pilpul and thought-experiments, I do not believe the antichrist will actually survive the battle of Armageddon. There is actually a really easy way to harmonize the two apparent types of prophecy, but I don't expect most would care or agree.)
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Back to 'the point', no, that is not the problem (for Ekklesia). (perhaps for Jonah, along with other problems)
    No, "in the end he is proven right", is wrong. Jonah was wrong.

    Yahweh is right.

    Yahweh does as He Pleases, and no one who puts their life and trust and relies on Him is ever disappointed. Jonah had other things in mind instead of trusting Yahweh.
     
  7. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    You are not actually replying to my points... perhaps because you have not read them?

    This thread is about the fulfillment of prophecy. If one says the prophecy about Nineveh being destroyed was fulfilled, one opens the door to other things "being fulfilled" in equally non-literal, non-apparent ways.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No, I don't agree with this in more ways than one.

    What is the purpose of stating something like that anyway ?
     
  9. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    The question is whether or not Nineveh/Babylon/Antichrist/X will be destroyed when God says X will be destroyed.

    If one says that the fate of Nineveh depends on a human factor, such as whether or not they repent, then one can say the fate of anyone or anything hinges on such factors. Therefore all prophecies in (for example) the book of Revelation can be interpreted as dependent on human factors. This is an intellectual problem for a mature mind to digest. It is not an actual challenge to faith.

    How many different ways can I say it ?
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    "can be interpreted" that way, but not truthfully.

    Yahweh does as He Pleases (not dependent on man). Even after Nineveh repented in sack-cloth and ashes and with fasting (even the animals fasted, I think),
    Yahweh could have destroyed Nineveh ......

    Many ways. Yahweh made everything simple, yet men keep coming up with many devices.


    for examples perhaps helpful, perhaps not:
    About 4,050,000 results (0.44 seconds)
    Search Results
    Web results
    Prophecies Aren't Predictions of the Future (You Can Look It Up)

    https://peteenns.com/prophecies-arent-predictions-of-the-future/

    Prophecy does not simply seek to predict the future, but to change the present. The potential of future disaster is meant to change current behavior, to motivate ...
    Prophecy - Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy

    A prophecy is a message that is claimed by a prophet to have been communicated to them by a .... In this context, not all prophecies contain predictions about the future. The Apostle Paul teaches in First Corinthians that prophecy is for the ...
    Definitions · ‎Christianity · ‎Judaism · ‎Native American prophecy
     
  11. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I'm enjoying your posts - so please tell how do you harmonize the two apparent types of prophecy?

    (I have my own thoughts about this, but I'm curious what you've come up with!)
     
  12. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Well for me, there is no contradiction as I believe all things have been determined from the beginning.
    So God never intended to destroy Nineveh, he intended to threaten its destruction and make them repent.

    This is due to my belief in predestination. Someone who believes in unchecked free will would have problems explaining why (f.ex) the antichrist is "destined" to do what he will do, while Nineveh's destiny (destruction) apparently was diverted by human repentance.

    As I recall, Chuck Missler is one who is at least consistent with his belief in free will, namely he believes the antichrist might conceivably do things other than what is prophesied.
     
  13. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Interesting point about Nineveh. And especially considering Nineveh has a purpose in the future as well:
    Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    I am thinking the primary purpose of the prophets was/is to warn people to make them repent.

    People like to argue for free will, but Paul seems to preach against it in Romans 9.
    But, could we have free will and there be predestination? Because God Was, and Is and Is To Come, He sees the beginning to the end, so He knows what we will do with our free will, and what we have done with our free will. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but Pharaoh also hardened his own heart - God would've known that Pharaoh would harden his own heart, so maybe God helped him along with it?
    Then again,
    it's not about us. It is about God and His purposes, and His plans and like it's written:
    Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    That is pretty straight forward.
     
  14. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    I don't want to derail your thread so I'll just give a very brief reply.
    Since we agree God does as he pleases, there is no need for him to predestine "what would have happened anyway."
    Personally I believe God wouldn't predestine "what would have happened anyway" as nothing can happen without him.
     
  15. JohnC2

    JohnC2 Active Member

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    In that case - then an early prophecy serves more as a warning and a comfort that God is watching and is paying attention.

    God already knows what he will do and what they will do... But he lets us in on this so that we are reassured of his control and agency rather than allowing us to be continually tossed in the winds of chaos and chance.

    And in the case of Nineveh - the record stands that they were given MULTIPLE warnings and chances to repent before their final destruction. For example Obadiah was sent to Nineveh. They ignored his word and that sealed their final fate.....

    It reminds me of the conversation Daniel has with Nebuchadnezzer’s Grandson - where he basically says “You knew all this stuff, and yet you decided to ignore it and do whatever you wanted anyway..... The handwriting on the wall says ‘Your time is now up..’.”.
     
  16. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    You haven't derailed the thread. I did ask in the OP -
    Do all prophecies have to be fulfilled?
    People talk a lot about end times and how this has to be fulfilled/take place, and that has to be fulfilled/take place before Yeshua returns - but is it true?

    And since you believe in predestination, I gather your answer is "yes".
     
  17. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    I don't think "they will do" anything but that he makes it so.

    The people of Nineveh cannot rebel or repent but by his decree.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  18. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    What he wants to happen will happen. But things could play out in a way that we don't expect nor agree with. Depends on what he wants to do.

    I think he will do everything he revealed to John on Patmos, and everything else he's revealed.


    However, as a side-note, there is at least one verse in the book of Revelation that we know for a fact is a later interpolation:

    "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." (Rev 20:5)

    The sentence in the parenthesis (italicized) is known to not be a part of the original manuscripts.
    For all we know, other parts of scripture could be human interpolations or additions.

    This is a matter of perspective: most believers who have read the Revelation of John through history have thought that italicized part was the word of God, when we today know for a fact that it isn't.
     
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