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All has to be fulfilled?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by chunkofcoal, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

    +567
    Messianic
    In Relationship
    Do you not hold to the Word of the LORD and what other Believers refer to as the final fulfillment of prophecy ... think you might agree that the return of Christ is not the final fulfillment of prophecy ...

    Revelation 20:6-8
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

    Do you really believe the Word of prophecy is fulfilled at His return or one thousand years after the return of Mashiach Yeshua / Christ Jesus ? Isn't the Word of prophecy fulfilled when those that love Him will live eternally ... in other words His Word of Prophecy in a manner of speaking is eternal and doesn't stop at His return ...

    2 Corinthians 5:1
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    1 Corinthians 2:9
    But as it is written, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."​

    When Paul says, "as it is written" is he referring to just Isaiah 64:4 or other scripture, and if other scrpture ~ what other scripture ? Would appreciate all your views as i've always wondered where in the Tanakh is Paul referencing when he says, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him."
     
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,138
    Messianic
    Prophets can not in a linear description give the multi-dimensional view and even what they describe from what they see is distorted by what they understand... grasshoppers lions etc are all the best they could do to explain what they saw and usually it is without the dimension of time other than one event after another like plagues.
     
  3. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    So Jonah was mad because Nineveh repented? That's kind of sad to think about.
     
  4. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Jonah said "you will not do what you say you will do", and in the end he is proven right. That is the problem.

    Another way of stating the problem:

    Can we trust the book of Revelation?

    Will there necessarily be a battle of Armageddon, or does the Antichrist have free will to just choose to not do that ?

    Could he conceivably repent and just serve God ?
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    quote kindly where this is from. thx.
    Whoever rejects Yahweh's Word rejects Jesus and has rejected Yahweh's Authority and is opposed to Him.
    No.
     
  6. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.


    So that is the problem. Book of Jonah, along with certain other scriptures, assumes things can be reversed and are not "set in stone", other scriptures evidently assume the opposite and tend toward seeing things as irreversible.

    (Connected to this, one could discuss the problem of the Antichrist not having free will.)

    If God says he will do so and so, and Jonah accurately predicts he will not, that casts doubt over any other thing he says that he will do.

    It suggests that he might just find a way to get around his own word, like he did in the story of the book of Jonah. I don't think this is actually the case, but this is the intellectual challenge that some of us are aware of. God purposely puts these challenges in the text, as he said he would do (Proverbs 25:2).
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    I don't think that was why he was mad. Read Jonah - it is short and not difficult to read in a regular English Bible.

    p.s. I went and read Jonah again..... sorry as if implying you hadn't read it- just encouraging looking again, which turned out to be the best advice for myself ! THANKS !
    See later post for more info re Jonah being angry because of a plant, and thinking it was right to be angry and telling Yahweh this !
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    Sorry, no. Perhaps as you can have "forms of thought" contradicting directly Scripture, that is possible, (for forms of thought)
    but Scripture never contradicts Scripture. Man does,
    but Yahweh does not.
     
  9. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

    +993
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    The book of Jonah assumes that prophecies can be diverted. God said x would happen, but because Nineveh did z, x did not happen.

    Few scriptures literally contradict that, some seem to assume the opposite or are just silent on whether or not prophecies can be diverted by human actions, but you seem to contradict that.

    I am giving credit to you, because both positions have scriptures supporting them.

    It is possible everything in the book of Revelation will happen as stated (x), but who knows what will happen if "Nineveh" were to zig? God might zag, if we go by Jonah.

    But it could be that this is completely false, and that God always does x, regardless of what Nineveh does, in which case the book of Jonah is wrong.

    I don't think God contradicts himself, but he implants challenges in the text - which are made more difficult by the fact that we don't share the exact language and culture of the ancients.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    False premise, so I didn't read any further for now.
     
  11. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    He's vexed that he was right in his belief that he'd have to trek all the way out there for nothing. God was ultimately planning to have them repent, and honestly why not just raise up a prophet from Nineveh itself ?
    I think that's closer to his sentiment.

    It's like a doctor being called out to attend to someone that he knows is not sick, or who already has the medicine they need.
     
  12. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

    +993
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    Why are you telling me this ?

    If I say Nineveh will be destroyed, and it is not destroyed, is my prophecy accurate ?

    If I say the Antichrist will die in the battle of Armageddon, and he does not, is my prophecy accurate ?

    Jonah and the book of Revelation seem to be on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to how prophecy is presented.

    One allows human action causing God to not do what he planned, the other does not seem open to that. Both types of, or views of, prophecy have their support in scripture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  13. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    My post in which I wrote: "So Jonah was mad because Nineveh repented? That's kind of sad to think about"was a response to JohnC2 who wrote in his post -"Why was Jonah so angry - because Nineveh repented so that Assyria could then fulfill the prophecies that they would destroy and take the entire Northern Kingdom into captivity.

    If they didn’t repent - God would destroy them as he had said and they would not destroy the Northern Kingdom.... "

    I have read Jonah; I started this thread.
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,138
    Messianic
    Two pieces of evidence shows Satan is bound and determined to continue in his quest to rule the Universe.
    1.) 6000 years have passed and no change in attitude or course of action by Satan.
    2.) This world is fast approaching the climax of total "evil continually" without repentance.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    QUOTE="chunkofcoal, post: 73188911, member: 86341"]My post in which I wrote: "So Jonah was mad because Nineveh repented? That's kind of sad to think about"was a response to JohnC2 who wrote in his post -"Why was Jonah so angry - because Nineveh repented so that Assyria could then fulfill the prophecies that they would destroy and take the entire Northern Kingdom into captivity.

    If they didn’t repent - God would destroy them as he had said and they would not destroy the Northern Kingdom.... "

    I have read Jonah; I started this thread. [/QUOTE
    Yes, sorry- I didn't mean to imply you didn't but rather to look again- then I just now went and read Jonah again (I thought wrongly from memory that Jonah was angry because of the 'inconvenience' of preaching to Nineveh- and that Jonah thought Yahweh rich in mercy would have saved Nineveh anyway even if Jonah had not gone to them) , and so yes,
    Jonah was (apparently) mad because Nineveh repented, or perhaps more from this because (from Bullinger's notes on the book of Jonah) now Nineveh could be used by Yahweh as a rod against Israel, which Jonah apparently didn't want.

    Also there is this - Funny? - later in Jonah, he was angry because of a plant/vine ! (and when Yahweh said is it right for you to be angry for this reason, Jonah said Yes, I am right to be angry because of the vine! )
     
  16. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    Was it not a change in "course of action" from 'attacking' the Ekklesia to counterfeiting the church ? (i.e. providing an evil counterfeit to deceive people (very successful in history) . Then also yes, continuing to attack the true Ekklesia of Yahweh with the worldly counterfeit church whenever possible.
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,649
    Anabaptist
    I think because Yahweh's Word never falls to the ground (never fails) without doing His Purpose. He never contradicts Himself.
    When He puts conditions for people or nations in His Word, and the people or the nations change, His Word does not change - He executes exactly what He Pleases to execute - He carries out His Word Perfectly with no contradiction.
     
  18. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

    +993
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    Satan and the Antichrist are two separate entities.

    The Antichrist has basically spent his entire life in the abyss.

    As for Satan, that's a separate issue, but do you believe he has free will ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  19. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    You don't understand the basic premise being discussed, probably because you don't read my words closely.

    If I say Nineveh will be destroyed and it is not, has my prophecy been fulfilled?

    If you say yes, then you are also opening the door to the possibility that the Antichrist may not die in the battle of armageddon. Maybe there is no battle. Nineveh was not destroyed, yet God's word was fulfilled. Likewise, in the future one might say "the Antichrist was not killed, yet God's word was fulfilled".
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,138
    Messianic
    Good point.. which explains the scapegoat and the sacrificed one being identical with only a red thread to tell them apart.
     
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