All Does Not Radically Mean All?

[renniks]

Nice. Can you provide one of the numerous scriptures that state some will be saved and some lost? The OPer provided many scriptures....It would only be right to also back you belief up with a scripture as well......as opposed to just saying that his scriptures are wrong.

You're on the internet... Look up scriptures about hell... Should take about 5 seconds to have a long list.

 

[DamianWarS]

Dear Damian:

Phase 2: Are any of the Scriptures presented on the O.P. a synecdoche?

what about these verses? what sort of narrative do they present?

Matt. 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it,"

Matt. 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen

Luke 13:22-27
And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ "Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'

Rom. 9:27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly,"

 

[RaymondG]

You're on the internet... Look up scriptures about hell... Should take about 5 seconds to have a long list.

exactly.....It would take about 5 seconds.......shorter than the time to post "your doctrine is false"

So why would someone do one without the other......if the evidence is so easily available?

Why ask one to take your word, alone, over the scriptures he presented?

 

[renniks]

exactly.....It would take about 5 seconds.......shorter than the time to post "your doctrine is false"

So why would someone do one without the other......if the evidence is so easily available?

Why ask one to take your word, alone, over the scriptures he presented?

Well actually it does take longer to post verses, when one is on this cursed handheld device. And if I do post a long list of verses, Fine Lies will just do what he always does, pretend to have some esoteric knowledge that is higher than the common man reading the Bible.

 

[FineLinen]

what about these verses? what sort of narrative do they present?

Dear Damian: Perhaps you misunderstood the question?

Take 2=

Are any of the Scriptures presented on the O.P. a synecdoche?

Synecdoche vs. Metonymy: Definitions & Examples Video with Lesson Transcript | Study.com

 

[AvisG]

Yes, there appears to be scripture in support of each of the 3 eschatological positions: eternal torment, annihilation and salvation of all.

I'm apparently not making my point clearly enough, so let me try bullets:

• This isn't a matter of verses A-B-C suggesting one thing and verses X-Y-Z suggesting something else. There are doctrines for which there can be a legitimate "battle of the verses" such as this, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Not at all.
• What I'm talking about is the biblical Jesus - this and nothing more.
• Right out of the mouth of Jesus, we have multiple verses clearly talking about Hell. Verses that are clear and unequivocal and can't be interpreted in any other way.
• We know nothing about what Jesus believed or taught except what is set forth in the Gospels.
• To adopt universalism or annihilationism, we have two choices:
  • Jesus didn't know what He was talking about. This is obviously unacceptable for any form of Christianity.
  • The Gospels don't accurately report what Jesus believed and taught. If this is true, then we know nothing about Jesus.
  • We would also have to believe that Paul and other NT authors completely misunderstood Jesus.
• So it doesn't matter where else in the Bible that you think you find universalism or annihilationism - you lose the biblical Jesus.
• Universalism in particular would stand orthodox Christianity on its head. It's inconceivable to me that a doctrine this central and monumentally important wouldn't have been clearly and unequivocally expressed in the Bible. But not only isn't it clearly and unequivocally expressed, but Jesus' words are clearly and unequivocally to the contrary.
• I'm always suspicious of doctrines that conform to the way I might "like" God to be or that I think He "ought" to be. Universalism and annihilationism are two perfect examples.
• I just don't see how a theology that completely loses the biblical Jesus can reasonably be described as Christian, unless Christianity can be whatever we want it to be.

Which verses in the OP do you believe points to Universal ism ? For I too would like to see it in scripture. Also, which verse dismissed all ideas of a hell?

I really don't think any do. I know the verses on which universalists rely - but I don't care what verses they rely upon, they run smack into the insurmountable problem I describe in the bullet points above.

 

[Tree of Life]

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

It's best to take each passage one at a time because "all" can mean different things in different contexts. In the first passage, "all" is qualified by the prepositional phrases "in Adam" and "in Christ". All in Adam will die. All in Christ will be made alive. But not all are in Christ.

In other places "all" means "all without distinction" as opposed to "all without exception". That Jesus is the savior of "all men" means that he is the savior of "all kinds of men" and that he is the only savior of men. But this does not mean that he saves all men without exception.

 

[StillGods]

Dear Still: You still have not articulated an answer as to the results of the risen Christ ministering to the "disobedient" dead destroyed in the great flood of Noah's day.

The Master Locksmith holds the keys of death and hell & knows how to turn the keys!

One does have to sleep hehe...I see many more people have posted since (or should I say 'all' people have posted since). I like the responses given refuting Universalism while I slept.

 

[FineLinen]

I'm apparently not making my point clearly enough, so let me try bullets:

• This isn't a matter of verses A-B-C suggesting one thing and verses X-Y-Z suggesting something else. There are doctrines for which there can be a legitimate "battle of the verses" such as this, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Not at all.
• What I'm talking about is the biblical Jesus - this and nothing more.
• Right out of the mouth of Jesus, we have multiple verses clearly talking about Hell. Verses that are clear and unequivocal and can't be interpreted in any other way.
• We know nothing about what Jesus believed or taught except what is set forth in the Gospels.
• To adopt universalism or annihilationism, we have two choices:
  • Jesus didn't know what He was talking about. This is obviously unacceptable for any form of Christianity.
  • The Gospels don't accurately report what Jesus believed and taught. If this is true, then we know nothing about Jesus.
  • We would also have to believe that Paul and other NT authors completely misunderstood Jesus.
• So it doesn't matter where else in the Bible that you think you find universalism or annihilationism - you lose the biblical Jesus.
• Universalism in particular would stand orthodox Christianity on its head. It's inconceivable to me that a doctrine this central and monumentally important wouldn't have been clearly and unequivocally expressed in the Bible. But not only isn't it clearly and unequivocally expressed, but Jesus' words are clearly and unequivocally to the contrary.
• I'm always suspicious of doctrines that conform to the way I might "like" God to be or that I think He "ought" to be. Universalism and annihilationism are two perfect examples.
• I just don't see how a theology that completely loses the biblical Jesus can reasonably be described as Christian, unless Christianity can be whatever we want it to be.

I really don't think any do. I know the verses on which universalists rely - but I don't care what verses they rely upon, they run smack into the insurmountable problem I describe in the bullet points above.

Dear Avis: It is wonderful to know the Biblical Jesus words were clear and unequivocal.

"Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

opened= dianoigo

I wonder why the disciples of our Lord (the Biblical Jesus) were constantly turning to the beloved John (who leaned on the Master's bosom) to disclose what He clearly meant?

WHY?

 

[FineLinen]

It's best to take each passage one at a time because "all" can mean different things in different contexts. In the first passage, "all" is qualified by the prepositional phrases "in Adam" and "in Christ". All in Adam will die. All in Christ will be made alive. But not all are in Christ.

In other places "all" means "all without distinction" as opposed to "all without exception". That Jesus is the savior of "all men" means that he is the savior of "all kinds of men" and that he is the only savior of men. But this does not mean that he saves all men without exception.

Dear Tree: Not all are in Christ Jesus YET. However, that wee word IN/EN declares the entire creation encompassing the heavens, earth, and underworld will ultimately worship Him IN union with His Name: every last one!

God IS the Saviour of all mankind! He is not a potential Saviour: He IS Saviour. But wait, there is more>>>

He is the Saviour especially of those who believe/trust in Him.

Please note:

Malista is NOT monon or monos: NOT

 

[FineLinen]

One does have to sleep hehe...I see many more people have posted since (or should I say 'all' people have posted since). I like the responses given refuting Universalism while I slept.

Dear Still: Make that a muffled hehe. You have failed again to address the question.

Take 3=

You still have not articulated an answer as to the results of the risen Christ ministering to the "disobedient" dead destroyed in the great flood of Noah's day.

 

[StillGods]

Mtt 25:41-46

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I wish Universalism were true but it's just not.

 

[StillGods]

Dear Still: Make that a muffled hehe. You have failed again to address the question.

Take 3=

You still have not articulated an answer as to the results of the risen Christ ministering to the "disobedient" dead destroyed in the great flood of Noah's day.

Did Jesus minister to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah...

if by 'spirits' meaning angels then Jesus did minister to angels but it wasnt people referred to but spirits (angels) Jesus ministered to.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Dear David: My friend from Ecuador, it is always a pleasure seeing you again. The title of this link is what? It is the scope of the radical word pas.

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

I don’t know if any language where all does not mean all. We may use the word wrong but it doesn’t change the meaning. Some means some and all means all is what I thought but I’m open to a better understanding if anyone can provide one without giving their personal idea of things they are not sure about.

 

[FineLinen]

Did Jesus minister to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah...

if by 'spirits' meaning angels then Jesus did minister to angels but it wasnt people referred to but spirits (angels) Jesus ministered to.

Dear Still: In knew you could do it. However, the risen Christ of Glory was not preaching to angels in the passage under consideration in St. Peter. Angels did not perish in the great flood, the disobedient dead did, all of them (except 8).

“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Universalism is wonderfully appealing, at least to me. Annihilation is at least more appealing (to me) than eternal torment.

HOWEVER, both positions face the problem that they are DIRECTLY CONTRARY to the words of Jesus. The biblical Jesus is the only one we have. If we can't trust what Jesus said - i.e., trust the Gospels at least being in the ballpark of what He actually said - Christianity pretty much turns into a pumpkin.

You would have to conclude either "Jesus didn't know what He was talking about on this core issue" or "the Gospels grossly misstate Jesus' position on this core issue." Either one is simply unacceptable for any sort of Christianity.

I'm willing to be flexible where flexibility is possible. Regarding Hell, I'm willing to say "Perhaps the biblical references to fire and torment are hyperbole. In any event, we'll see in the end that whatever Hell turns out to be is worthy of the God we worship." But I'm not willing to invent a completely new religion and claim it's still Christianity.

Just to throw my two pence into the ante--which doesn't have a lot of value these days--I think there is room for some version of Annihilationism within the hermeneutical outcome of what we find in the New Testament.

But even with this being a possible interpretive conclusion, it's not a cardinal point of doctrine for me: rather I just affirm the irony of an equivocal dichotomy that seems apparent in the coin toss and say that, without Christ, heads we lose and tails we lose. Either way, without Christ, we lose...which isn't to also say that I'm an Exclusivist, but that's another story for another thread, I'm sure.

 

[FineLinen]

I don’t know if any language where all does not mean all. We may use the word wrong but it doesn’t change the meaning. Some means some and all means all is what I thought but I’m open to a better understanding if anyone can provide one without giving their personal idea of things they are not sure about.

Dear Lover: That is a healthy attitude. There is actually very little any of us are sure about: we may think we have discovered every star of the heavens only to learn mere pricks of light in the starry sky cascades into more and more stars and whole galaxies.

That is exactly the dimensions of our glorious Lord and exceedingly more!

The word for all in koine= pas. It radically means all according to every scholar of koine I am aware. The only exception to the rule is what is a synecdoche found in some instances.

The radical pas is in the super radical company of ta panta which is "the all". If your head is hurting I know exactly how you feel. LOL

 

[StillGods]

you or 'rotherham' could be right regarding it could be referring to people and/or spirits/angels. it could mean Jesus declared His victory to the fallen angels who married humans (Gen 6) in the days before Noah. Or it could mean Jesus in order to conquer death went to where the dead went, released people like Adam, King David etc God fearing people from Sheol and took the God fearing to heaven with Him declaring His Victory.

If you believe it was people Jesus ministered to, then as Rotherham said in the quote you mentioned the dead were still judged, and as such some went with Jesus some did not.

 

[FineLinen]

you or 'rotherham' could be right regarding it could be referring to people and/or spirits/angels. it could mean Jesus declared His victory to the fallen angels who married humans (Gen 6) in the days before Noah. Or it could mean Jesus in order to conquer death went to where the dead went, released people like Adam, King David etc God fearing people from Sheol and took the God fearing to heaven with Him declaring His Victory.

If you believe it was people Jesus ministered to, then as Rotherham said in the quote you mentioned the dead were still judged, and as such some went with Jesus some did not.

Dear Still: Rotherham stands with the greats of Bible translation. He is right!

The passage under consideration refers to people, not angels who do not die.

LUKE 20:36 KJV "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being..."

The nekros dead were indeed judged with a net result of being brought to zao life, every last one of them!

Indeed, the Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed His victory in all dimensions including the angelic host.

1 Peter 4:6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="AvisG, post: 74407271, member: 423360"]I'm apparently not making my point clearly enough, so let me try bullets:

• This isn't a matter of verses A-B-C suggesting one thing and verses X-Y-Z suggesting something else. There are doctrines for which there can be a legitimate "battle of the verses" such as this, but that's not what I'm talking about here. Not at all.
• What I'm talking about is the biblical Jesus - this and nothing more.
• Right out of the mouth of Jesus, we have multiple verses clearly talking about Hell. Verses that are clear and unequivocal and can't be interpreted in any other way.
• We know nothing about what Jesus believed or taught except what is set forth in the Gospels.
• To adopt universalism or annihilationism, we have two choices:
  • Jesus didn't know what He was talking about. This is obviously unacceptable for any form of Christianity.
  • The Gospels don't accurately report what Jesus believed and taught. If this is true, then we know nothing about Jesus.
  • We would also have to believe that Paul and other NT authors completely misunderstood Jesus.
• So it doesn't matter where else in the Bible that you think you find universalism or annihilationism - you lose the biblical Jesus.
• Universalism in particular would stand orthodox Christianity on its head. It's inconceivable to me that a doctrine this central and monumentally important wouldn't have been clearly and unequivocally expressed in the Bible. But not only isn't it clearly and unequivocally expressed, but Jesus' words are clearly and unequivocally to the contrary.
• I'm always suspicious of doctrines that conform to the way I might "like" God to be or that I think He "ought" to be. Universalism and annihilationism are two perfect examples.
• I just don't see how a theology that completely loses the biblical Jesus can reasonably be described as Christian, unless Christianity can be whatever we want it to be.

I really don't think any do. I know the verses on which universalists rely - but I don't care what verses they rely upon, they run smack into the insurmountable problem I describe in the bullet points above.[/QUOTE
------------------------- Amen. It has always been opposed to and contrary to all Scripture. Thks for the specifics !

One does have to sleep hehe...I see many more people have posted since (or should I say 'all' people have posted since). I like the responses given refuting Universalism while I slept.

Good.
======================================
QUOTE="StillGods, post: 74407514, member: 400971"]Mtt 25:41-46

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I wish Universalism were true but it's just not.[/QUOTE
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Remember what Jesus says about the false gospels including universalism(which condemns men's souls to destruction) ---let them who bring any other gospel (including universalism) be anathema...


Still WISH it to be true ? OR, rather, are you hopeful that some of the desired outcomes might be true (not the false gospel of universalism, but some of the things you hope for; which if they are good in God's Sight, might be accomplished without the heresy of universalism ) .....