Lion of God said:
No SOTK, it is you that is wrong. If you are not aware of the parallels or the verses that support the 12 Steps you are either unfamiliar with the Bible or the Steps.
Here are some links that will give you some history where the Steps came from:
here and
here.
No, you are still wrong and misinformed. You need to go much deeper than the two links you gave me. Check out this link:
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/aaroots.html
There are also some books listed at the bottom of the page which you could check out that digs much deeper into the history of the Oxford Group and early AA.
Lion of God said:
Here is a some verses showing the scriptural foundation of the Steps:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ... that our lives had become unmanageable. "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." (Romans 7:18)
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. "... my grace is sufficient for you, for my POWER is made perfect in weakness." (2 Corinthians 12:9)
..for it God Who works in you to will and act according to His good purpose.. (Phil. 2:13)
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of GOD as we understood Him. "... If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." (Luke 9:23**)
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. "Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord." (Lamentations 3:40)
5. Admitted to GOD, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." (James 5:16)
6. Were entirely ready to have GOD remove all these defects of character. "If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land." (Isaiah 1:19)
7. Humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings. "Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will lift you up." (James 4:10)
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23, 24**)
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Give and it shall be given you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Luke 6:38**)
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith GOD has given you." (Romans 12:3)
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with GOD as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will, and the power to carry that out. "May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer." (Psalm 19:14)
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly..." (Col. 3:16)
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and practice these principles in all our affairs. "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:1-2)
These are just a few examples of verses that show what the Steps were based on. A much more complete listing can be found in the Serenity Bible and the Life Recovery Bible.
Ha! I was wondering when an AA defender would post the infamous Life Recovery/Serenity Bible/Alcoholic's Victorious "scriptural" steps. Lion of God, the use of scripture with the "12 steps" came
after the creation of the "12 steps". Just when do you think the so called Serenity Bible and Life Recovery Bible came out? The scripture applied to the 12 Steps is Christianity's attempt at making the steps more "biblical". Just why do you think groups like Alcoholic's Victorious, Celebrate Recovery, and other such Christian addiction support groups came out?
One more thing- If the above scripture was really indeed used by Bill Wilson, Bob Smith, Shoemaker, etc. to create condensed "steps" to God, why didn't they use them anywhere in AA literature? For example, I have read
Pass it on and other AA early history literature. There was never any mention of scripture.
Lion of God said:
AA never claims to help someone quit an addiction. AA claims that through the 12 Steps one will find God, who will give that person the power to stop an addiction.
Really? What about the AA famous line "AA is a butt-saving program and not a soul-saving program"? Why the generic use of god? I had people worshipping trees in one of the meetings I attended. Lion of God, the majority of meetings I attended in AA were
all about the steps with hardly any importance placed on the One True God. People were offended when I brought Him up. This was a common theme I came up against in not one particular meeting in AA but many.
Lion of God said:
My bible tells me plainly in many areas that I need to recognize that I am incapable of fullfilling the Law. It tells me that it is my sin (dysfunctional behaviours, shortcomings etc) that block me from the sunlight of the Spirit. It tells me to repent and turn from these things and look to God for the power to overcome. It tells me to acknowledge my sins, not deny them. It is then on that foundation that through prayer and meditation that I will come to an undertanding of who i am in His eyes. It is not possible to have a true relationship with Him unless I am willing to clear up the wreakage of my past and face the person i have been. It also tells me that when i am in the body of believers I have a responsibility to further the kingdomin whatever capacity the Lord has given me a talent for.
I agree with
some of what you wrote above. I will comment on what you stated towards the bottom of the above quote. First of all, AA is
not a body of believers. While I am certain that some are believers, the majority of them are not. I do feel, as do you, that it is
always worthwhile and a matter of responsibility to further the Kingdom of God. The furthering of the Kingdom can occur in AA. I've seen it. That is definitely not a bad thing at all, however, I also think we have the responsibility to adequately and truthfully proclaim the Kingdom of God. A question for you: Are we doing that by portraying the "steps" as an accurate representation of scripture? And, are we doing that by allowing God to be portrayed as a "thing" or allowing paganism to thrive around us? What do you think is your responsibility in that respect? Is it possible we could be doing more harm than good?
Lion of God said:
These are all concepts that are contained in the Bible. The Steps are the condensed version of the path to God.
Wow. "The Steps are the condensed version of the path to God". Gee, I thought Jesus was the
only path to God. Lion of God, your statement is
exactly why I speak out against the "12 steps" now.
Lion of God said:
The Steps are not a "thing" but a process. One that is outlined in the Bible.
According to you, the "steps" are much more than a process. Again, they are
not outlined in the Bible.
Lion of God said:
"Resting in God" is spritually discerned, SOTK. Take a raw newcomer still vibrating from the last hangover or the druggie going through withdawels and tell him to "Rest in God" and he will tell you that it is only possible to do so when he is high, which is why he likes it so much.
Yes, a raw newcome is also more than likely not a Christian. If you will notice, most of what I have written pertains to the Christian. My writings on our Identity in Christ is a truth which most Christians, especially alcoholics/addicts, have no idea about. Getting this Truth is becoming very effective with Christian brothers and sisters who are struggling with the sin issue of addiction (as well as other sin issues). Many churches have classes/groups on this subject and no "steps" are used.
In terms of the non-believer alcoholic/addict, it is very important that they quit. While I have many problems with AA and the steps, I am not so blind that I would state that AA does not work. The fact of the matter is that it does. I have never stated that AA is not effective in getting a person to quit or to even stay quit. Bill Wilson himself once stated that AA is "spiritual kindergarten". My problems with AA have to do with the larger picture- the soul.
Lion of God said:
The challenge is to teach him spiritual principles with which he can learn to trust and eventually rest in God as opposed to resting in a bottle or drug but first he needs to see for hiself that that is what he is looking for.
Yes, no real problem with this. I use this type of tact myself when I am witnessing to
any non-believer.
Lion of God said:
Tell the natural man to do what is unnatural to him and he will do the opposite extreme of what he was doing. It is by the man doing an inventory of his actions and realizing the selfish motivations behind them that he starts to realize where he has gone wrong in past and that he now needs to base all actions on love if he wishes to realize a power that will help him to overcome his addictions.
Again, no real problem with the majority of what you wrote here. Peer to peer confession is Biblical and healing. I would not call God just a "power" though, but I do understand what you mean.
Lion of God said:
You had the benefit of 5 years in AA/NA getting clean and sober and building a foundation before going strictly church. That is the path God had you on and we know there are no mistakes in God's world, right?
Yes, some cool things happened to me in AA, but it was in spite of AA that I became a Christian. I will also agree with you on your point that my attendance in AA was part of God's sovereign will for me.
Lion of God said:
So, isn't it irresponsible of you to recommend a path of recovery that God didn't have you follow?
No. Nice try though.
If it was part of God's sovereign will for me to attend AA, it is equally part of God's sovereign will that I have come to see the problems and issues surrounding AA and the 12 Steps. I was told several times and by several people that I wouldn't make it in "recovery" if I left AA. This reliance upon AA (a thing and not God) is a big problem. Again, it just reeks of works.
So, does AA work, in terms of helping an individual to quit their addiction? Sure, it definitely does. AA is even pretty successful at this. I don't deny it. You know what really bothers me and is one reason which lead me to where I am at? I observed that Christian brothers and sisters generally have a harder time staying sober than non-believers. I began to wonder why this was. I also observed how so many people in AA were generally so unhappy with their lives even with a lot of time in sobriety. I began to wonder why this was. It seems to me that one can be quit from alcohol and yet feel not free at all. All of this lead me to studying about our Identity in Christ.
There comes a time when no amount of "steps" are enough. There comes a time when works just don't cut it anymore. The only true freedom we can have in this world from any sin or difficulty is to recognize that Jesus Christ already conquered it on the Cross at Calvary. Believing in this is true freedom indeed!
Blessings,
SOTK
