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Kristen.NewCreation and FreeinChrist
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No apology needed thank you for sharing, I am not able to go to many places. I have no vehicle or income. I pretty much am a social cripple.
We have no idea of knowing how alcoholism was dealt with in the early church. I think it may possibly have been dealt with in the way that Celebrate Recovery deals with it - with prayer, with Bible readings and scripture, and with a mentor who had been through the struggle and had become free through Christ, and with other supporters. We have no way of knowing so my guess is as good as yours.Personally, I feel the Bible is very thorough and has everything I need to deal with in this life. I wonder how the brethren dealt with "alcoholism" in the early church when it came up? In other words, why the need for steps?
As far as CR being biblical, I beg to differ. Jesus is mentioned in CR, sure. Scripture is even used. That doesn't make it biblical. Mormons use scripture as well. Does that make their religion Biblical? From what I have seen in CR, it is highly legalistic and a works-based theology.
I am not against groups or getting together as brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, I think it's helpful and Biblical to do so. I am against the supposed theology and principles of CR or groups like them.
we have so Americanized things. the key element that has always brought about true repentance is revere for the Almighty. that 's what my abstainence is based on. God has been gracious enough to allow people diliverance through other means too, but the thing that He honors, the program that is biblical has the element of reverence as its central core. i don't see that as being emphasized in the ministry that was mentioned. a lot of people are so concerned about how much the addict hurts. but what about how the addiction hurts God? a key passage that explains the difference is 2 Cor. 7:9-10.
We have no idea of knowing how alcoholism was dealt with in the early church. I think it may possibly have been dealt with in the way that Celebrate Recovery deals with it - with prayer, with Bible readings and scripture, and with a mentor who had been through the struggle and had become free through Christ, and with other supporters. We have no way of knowing so my guess is as good as yours.
However, I just want to say to any brother or sisters who may have a CR group at their church: please don't be put off by one person's opinion of CR. Sobriety is the important thing here, not opinion. I have seen CR work for alcoholics and drug addicts, and I have also seen it make a difference in the lives of those who were struggling with other sin issues.
I also came to sobriety through CR and learned a great deal and I'm SO thankful for its existence.
There is definitely scriptural support for a mentor. See Ecclesiastes 4:9-12
Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work. If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.
Also Hebrews 3:13
But encourage one another, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another
There are more, but these are really to the point.
Laurentia said:Do we need a program? Some of us who were absolutely in denial of our sin did, yes, need a program. I could not have focused on my sin properly without a program. Maybe that makes me weak, but then if I was not weak, I would not have been addicted to alcohol. Some of us - okay, let's just say ME - I knew about the freedom I had in Christ but y'now I could use Romans 14:14 to justify drinking, and tell myself I wasn't in sin, so it did take something more to convince me of my sin. Perhaps you don't think that alcoholism is a sin? I don't know your position on that. I certainly believe that worshipping any false idol, the way that i worshipped alcohol, was a sin. So, I'm glad that you got free from captivity by "just taking it in" but it does not work that way for everyone.
Laurentia said:Finally, bear in mind Romans 14:13 - "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Please don't put an obstacle in the way of those who need a group to reach sobriety, nor judge them for it. Without CR, and without another Christian program I have been following, I would still be wallowing in sin.
God bless you, L
and figured that you didn't think that mentors were biblical. My bad.We don't need "steps" or more sponsors or to pray more.
You see, I don't have a problem with "groups". Groups to me can provide mentoring for people with all of these sins. Many churches do provide a mentor for men with porn issues, and I can't see any problem with anyone with a problem having a mentor. I find that talking to Christians who have been through the sin of alcoholism and have gotten free to be tremendously uplifting and positive, and I don't see why that shouldn't be extended to other sin issues. Murderers, or people doing time for crimes should not be ignored either. The word of God needs to go to everyone.What about other sins though, Laurentia? Do you feel there should be groups and programs for sinners who habitually sin with adultery? Or homosexuality? Or murder? Or whatever else? You see where I am going with this?
I guess I just don't see where "works" come into it with CR. I don't "do" AA, so I can't comment about that group. When I was in CR, I didn't have any works to show to anyone. I went to group, and I went to step meetings. We worked through the book, discussed scriptures, shared experiences and prayed. My eyes were opened by the scriptures that we shared, and I was able to see the wood for the trees. I think that is something you mean when you say that the "identity of Christ" was what changed you. I think that's what happened to me also. I saw my sin, I saw what I needed to do: to get my "living water" from Christ, and not from a bottle.When I started studying about our Identity in Christ the lights came on! I finally got it! I realized that I had it backwards for a long time. See, we (brothers and sisters in Christ) became free the very second we accepted the atoning blood of Jesus Christ! We received the Holy Spirit! We received the Mind of Christ! I don't need to work towards anything! I already have everything! If I allow Jesus Christ to work in me and through me, I will bear fruits of the Spirit. This is a huge concept and truth to grasp. Again, this is the message I am trying to relate. Programs and groups don't teach this by their very nature. Programs and groups teach works. Do you understand me? Please ponder this and think about it.
This isn't how CR works. The steps, yes, but there is no emphasis on studying MORE or meditating MORE .. it's more like doing a prolonged Bible study. It opened my eyes to scripture more fully. Yep, that's a "more" but for me it was a good "more" - but I didn't feel that this would "make me" sober, I felt that it would, and did, bring me closer to Christ, and understanding Him, and following Him rather than my flesh.I once believed in the disease concept of alcoholism. I once worked my way into freedom. In other words, I used to feel following steps, sponsoring more, praying more, meditating more, and constantly admitting to myself and others that I was a sinner (alcoholic or whatever) would get me closer to being truly free.
Lam 3:40 Let us search and examine our ways, and turn again to the LORD.
Psa 119:59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto your testimonies.
Psa 119:60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep your commandments.
Pro 4:26 Ponder the path of your feet, and let all your ways be established.
1Co 11:28 A person must examine himself and then eat the bread and drink from the cup.
SOTK said:I don't need to work towards anything! I already have everything! If I allow Jesus Christ to work in me and through me, I will bear fruits of the Spirit. This is a huge concept and truth to grasp. Again, this is the message I am trying to relate. Programs and groups don't teach this by their very nature. Programs and groups teach works. Do you understand me? Please ponder this and think about it.
Heb 5:12 In fact, though by now you should be teachers, you still need someone to teach you the basic truths of God's word. You have become people who need milk instead of solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is still a baby and is inexperienced in the message of righteousness.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.
Okay, well I saw this:and figured that you didn't think that mentors were biblical.
Laurentia said:My bad.You see, I don't have a problem with "groups". Groups to me can provide mentoring for people with all of these sins.
Laurentia said:Many churches do provide a mentor for men with porn issues, and I can't see any problem with anyone with a problem having a mentor.
Laurentia said:I find that talking to Christians who have been through the sin of alcoholism and have gotten free to be tremendously uplifting and positive, and I don't see why that shouldn't be extended to other sin issues.
Laurentia said:Murderers, or people doing time for crimes should not be ignored either. The word of God needs to go to everyone.
Laurentia said:I guess I just don't see where "works" come into it with CR. I don't "do" AA, so I can't comment about that group. When I was in CR, I didn't have any works to show to anyone.
Laurentia said:I went to group, and I went to step meetings. We worked through the book, discussed scriptures, shared experiences and prayed. My eyes were opened by the scriptures that we shared, and I was able to see the wood for the trees. I think that is something you mean when you say that the "identity of Christ" was what changed you. I think that's what happened to me also. I saw my sin, I saw what I needed to do: to get my "living water" from Christ, and not from a bottle. This isn't how CR works. The steps, yes, but there is no emphasis on studying MORE or meditating MORE .. it's more like doing a prolonged Bible study. It opened my eyes to scripture more fully. Yep, that's a "more" but for me it was a good "more" - but I didn't feel that this would "make me" sober, I felt that it would, and did, bring me closer to Christ, and understanding Him, and following Him rather than my flesh.
Laurentia said:I do ponder what you say. I just guess I see things differently. I would certainly say to anyone reading these posts that they should truly open their eyes to the nature of Christ, and to the gift that He gave us .. but don't rule out getting help from your church, if and when necessary.
God bless, L
I decided that before I responded to SOTK's latest round of recovery and Step bashing that I would spend a few days praying and meditating on some of the issues being raised.
Lion of God said:First off, why this condemnation of the word "sponsor" and acceptance of "mentor" or "accountabilty partner" since they are different words meaning the same thing. This seems like a grasping at straws.
Lion of God said:As far as the term "12 Steps" is concerned, we know it is not in the bible. Neither are the terms "positional truth", "five points of Calvinism", "Trinity", "rapture", "Nicene Creed", etc. They are simply sets of ideas and interpretations of the Bible that are given a name to refer to them. From this we should be able to see that just because a term is not in the Bible, it is not an unscriptural concept or principle.
Lion of God said:I do have to thank you SOTK for continuing to bring up positional truth. Through the years of sponsoring people, I have run into those who like you did not benefit from or were even able to do the fourth Step. Looking at their sins or character defects was too much for them to be able to do because of their own self-condemnation. As you have stated there was no awareness of who they are in the Lord's eyes and how they were now free from condemnation. I could never understand until now why these people who had accepted Jesus as their saviour could not continue on in repenting from their past misdeeds and truly be set free from their old lifestyles. It is the freedom from the condemnation of sin that allows us to examine ourselves as the Lord asks us to do in quite a number of verses.
Lion of God said:There are also verses were Paul talks of striving to win the prize, subjecting his body to self-control, not leaving the goal of attaining perfection to chance.
Lion of God said:You are correct that 12 Step programs do not teach that we do nothing. Neither does the Bible!! We strive for righteousness and perfection and thank God when He gives us a measure of success.
Lion of God said:Jesus has a much easier time working in us when we are an empty vessel than one who is selfish, self-centred, self absorbed, delusional and deceived. When we turn our will and life over to God as in Step 3, we are free from the condemnation of sin and able to start looking at these unloving and self-defeating behaviours and to repent of and look to the Lord for their removal.
Lion of God said:"Positional Truth" is contained within Step 3 and is touched on by the author of the Alcoholics Anonymous book although not in the exact same terms. If we were to stop at Step 3, we in effect would be stuck in the "milk of the Word" that Paul refers on several occasions.
Lion of God said:Who we are in Jesus is a basic truth of the Word, without which we could not grow further in our salvation . Our salvation btw is something we are to work out with fear and trembling, (Phillipians 2:12) because after all "faith without works is dead". (James 2:17)
Lion of God said:I hope you are open to prayerfully studying the Word in this matter and seek the Lord for all answers.
Lion of God said:A reference for the 12 Steps and the Bible. http://www.12step.org/references/bible_steps.php
Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.Hi, I am new to this site. I thought I would start a thread for Alcoholic/Addict Discussion topics. This thread could also be used for general support and encouragement.
I am a recovered alcoholic of nine years. Seven of these years has been spent as a Blood Bought Son of the King. Praise God! I got sober through AA and spent the majority of my sobriety in that program. I really bought into the practical applications of the 12 steps. In a sense, I still agree with some of the philosophy of AA, however, as a Christian I look at my past addiction to alcohol differently than I once did. I have different opinions on this subject today and this is one thing that we could talk about in this thread (one of many topics).
I hope this thread will spark some very helpful and beneficial discussion. As I said, it's meant to be supportive as well.
SOTK
Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.
Oneishmael, please don't get too tied down by numbers. You had sobriety, you slipped and fell. You can pick it up and start over any time you want to: you know that God is a God of second chances, right?? He will wash you clean and you can begin again. If you don't know how to - can I lend to you my favorite prayer, which is Psalm 51? This is how I talked to God when I could not strive into sobriety:Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.
SOTK said:I fully realize, believe me, that what I have been writing about is unpopular. I know it comes across as critical, judgemental, and maybe even appears as damaging to you and others. I know this, because I once felt this way. When I first began investigating more closely the recovery movement, I was astonished at what I was reading.
ExDrunkard said:I “fell off” about 5 times during the first year and 4 during the second year. During the third year of my new life in Jesus I noticed that the time elapsing between these incidents got further and further apart. After abstaining for 16 months during a period that began in 1976, there were a couple of incidents in 1977 and I got drunk for the last time on January 2, 1978.
I now believe sincerely that if I had persevered in prayer during those major times of temptation during my first few years as a believer, that the incidents of backsliding would have been far fewer.
Theberencall said:What I learned right away was that the 3,000 or so in attendance had a tremendous zeal for the Lord and an unquestionable sincerity in desiring to help those who were struggling with habitual sin. This was my impression in all of my interactions—with individuals, in small groups, in workshop sessions, and in the general worship sessions.
The only problem I have with mentors (sponsors or whatever a person wishes to call them) is when people are motivated to have them for the wrong reasons. This wrong motivation occurs a lot in recovery programs. It doesn't all the time, but I have personally witnessed it happen quite a bit of the time.
True, however, the theology behind the "Five Points of Calvinism" or "Positional Truth" don't remove nor change the reliance upon God. In fact, they enhance it in my opinion. Most of these "ideas" you bring up are scripturally based with a heavy amount of good exegesis.
More importantly the "12 Steps" are non-salvific. They are secular in nature however spiritual they might seem.
Do you claim that the "12 Steps" are a form of theology?
Finally, one of the bigger reasons behind my rejection of the "12 Steps" to recovery has to do with AA's (the recovery movement's) belief in the disease concept of "alcoholism". The Bible very clearly identifies drunkeness as sin. Sin is choice. While I believe one could easily label sin as a "disease" and they would be right because it can cause death, the fact remains that we choose to sin. There is only one "cure" for sin and that "cure" is Jesus Christ! No amount of "steps" can save us from our sinful nature.
I agree. I would never argue against the idea of self-examination which is easily what repentance is in the Bible.
See, that's a works based mentality, Lion of God. We strive. We should do steps. Look at the we which you are using. It is Christ who works in us to bear righteousness and perfection. Not us!
Hmmm...."Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of God as we understood Him". That's a "Positional Truth"? I think it goes without saying I have a problem with the "as we understood Him" part. That part is blasphemous.
Turning our life over the care of God is great. I obviously can't argue against that, however, I fail to see how you are equating it with positional truth. A positional truth would be "we finally realized that our life was always in the care of God and we therefore make the decision to repent of our sins and allow Jesus Christ to work in us for the betterment of His Will, and His Will for us".
Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
Ahhh...the old "faith without works is dead" scripture reference. Do you know I have spent countless hours debating this piece of scripture with "Christians" who argue works are necessary for salvation? This is one of the most abused pieces of scripture in the Bible. It's constantly taken out of context. People forget that works come from faith and vise versa. You can't have one without the other. James was addressing hypocrisy with his teaching in James 2. In other words, we are known by our fruits. James 2:17 isn't a prooftext for the importance of humanistic works nor God's enjoyment of them nor are they a requirement of salvation.
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