Alcoholics and Addicts Discussion/Support Thread

[justanobserver]

No apology needed thank you for sharing, I am not able to go to many places. I have no vehicle or income. I pretty much am a social cripple.

dont know if you got a Big Book and if not, heres the link to the AA Big Book online if you want to read it:

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/

as well as AA online support forums/chats:

http://www.e-aa.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

dont know if that will help you but like the old saying goes: if Mohammed cant come to the mountain, then the mountain comes to Mohamed!

good luck to you and I wish you well in your sobriety.

 

[stelow]

Thanks justanobserver for the links. I do not like to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes. I am only smoking weed, no other drugs. Smoking weed seems to be a slower path to one's demise; I do realize the smoking is not good for my health. It does relax me when I get all of wack and get upset about nothing.

 

[JaneFW]

Personally, I feel the Bible is very thorough and has everything I need to deal with in this life. I wonder how the brethren dealt with "alcoholism" in the early church when it came up? In other words, why the need for steps?

As far as CR being biblical, I beg to differ. Jesus is mentioned in CR, sure. Scripture is even used. That doesn't make it biblical. Mormons use scripture as well. Does that make their religion Biblical? From what I have seen in CR, it is highly legalistic and a works-based theology.

I am not against groups or getting together as brothers and sisters in Christ. In fact, I think it's helpful and Biblical to do so. I am against the supposed theology and principles of CR or groups like them.

We have no idea of knowing how alcoholism was dealt with in the early church. I think it may possibly have been dealt with in the way that Celebrate Recovery deals with it - with prayer, with Bible readings and scripture, and with a mentor who had been through the struggle and had become free through Christ, and with other supporters. We have no way of knowing so my guess is as good as yours.

However, I just want to say to any brother or sisters who may have a CR group at their church: please don't be put off by one person's opinion of CR. Sobriety is the important thing here, not opinion. I have seen CR work for alcoholics and drug addicts, and I have also seen it make a difference in the lives of those who were struggling with other sin issues.

I also came to sobriety through CR and learned a great deal and I'm SO thankful for its existence.

 

[gmadison]

we have so Americanized things. the key element that has always brought about true repentance is revere for the Almighty. that 's what my abstainence is based on. God has been gracious enough to allow people diliverance through other means too, but the thing that He honors, the program that is biblical has the element of reverence as its central core. i don't see that as being emphasized in the ministry that was mentioned. a lot of people are so concerned about how much the addict hurts. but what about how the addiction hurts God? a key passage that explains the difference is 2 Cor. 7:9-10.

 

[SOTK]

we have so Americanized things. the key element that has always brought about true repentance is revere for the Almighty. that 's what my abstainence is based on. God has been gracious enough to allow people diliverance through other means too, but the thing that He honors, the program that is biblical has the element of reverence as its central core. i don't see that as being emphasized in the ministry that was mentioned. a lot of people are so concerned about how much the addict hurts. but what about how the addiction hurts God? a key passage that explains the difference is 2 Cor. 7:9-10.

This whole idea of a "program" is what bothers me. Is that what God has been reduced to? Do we need a "program" to know that Jesus Christ can save us from our sins? Again, Jesus Christ is the only person (thing) which can save any of us from anything!

We have no idea of knowing how alcoholism was dealt with in the early church. I think it may possibly have been dealt with in the way that Celebrate Recovery deals with it - with prayer, with Bible readings and scripture, and with a mentor who had been through the struggle and had become free through Christ, and with other supporters. We have no way of knowing so my guess is as good as yours.

However, I just want to say to any brother or sisters who may have a CR group at their church: please don't be put off by one person's opinion of CR. Sobriety is the important thing here, not opinion. I have seen CR work for alcoholics and drug addicts, and I have also seen it make a difference in the lives of those who were struggling with other sin issues.

I also came to sobriety through CR and learned a great deal and I'm SO thankful for its existence.

Dear Laurentia,

My point in bringing up how alcoholism was dealt with in the early church is that "steps" and "programs" are new. While I agree with you that this question is highly speculative, I think we can equally agree that "steps" and the idea of "programs" were born in an era where psychology was becoming rapidly popular. Again, and I know this is somewhat speculative of me, but I imagine that alcoholics were prayed over and the bible was used.

Sobriety is important but so is freedom from every sin. True freedom can be found in Jesus Christ. Sobreity is achieved by the fruits of the Holy Spirit. By allowing Jesus Christ to work in us, we bear righteous fruit. Again, a large portion of our current "Christian culture" has it wrong. The "recovery movement" exacerbates this as well which is the notion of "working" towards freedom from sin (sobriety et al). The truth is that we are already free, and if we truly take this in and believe it, the Holy Spirit will work in us to bear good and righteous fruit. This is a positional truth. We don't need "steps" or more sponsors or to pray more. This type of mentality is dangerous and not biblical. This is all I'm attempting to communicate.

Blessings,

SOTK

 

[JaneFW]

There is definitely scriptural support for a mentor. See Ecclesiastes 4:9-12


Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work. If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Also Hebrews 3:13

But encourage one another, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

Proverbs 27:17

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another

There are more, but these are really to the point.

Do we need a program? Some of us who were absolutely in denial of our sin did, yes, need a program. I could not have focused on my sin properly without a program. Maybe that makes me weak, but then if I was not weak, I would not have been addicted to alcohol. Some of us - okay, let's just say ME - I knew about the freedom I had in Christ but y'now I could use Romans 14:14 to justify drinking, and tell myself I wasn't in sin, so it did take something more to convince me of my sin. Perhaps you don't think that alcoholism is a sin? I don't know your position on that. I certainly believe that worshipping any false idol, the way that i worshipped alcohol, was a sin. So, I'm glad that you got free from captivity by "just taking it in" but it does not work that way for everyone.

Finally, bear in mind Romans 14:13 - "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."

Please don't put an obstacle in the way of those who need a group to reach sobriety, nor judge them for it. Without CR, and without another Christian program I have been following, I would still be wallowing in sin.

God bless you, L

 

[SOTK]

There is definitely scriptural support for a mentor. See Ecclesiastes 4:9-12


Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work. If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Also Hebrews 3:13

But encourage one another, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.

Proverbs 27:17

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another

There are more, but these are really to the point.

Laurentia,

I have never stated that mentorship is not biblical. If you read my posts in this thread, it is clear that I absolutely support mentoring. In fact, I believe we (brothers and sisters) should be doing even more of this. There are many within the Body who have never experienced the benefits of having a mentor or mentoring somebody else. Some have never even heard of it so I couldn't agree more with you.

Do we need a program? Some of us who were absolutely in denial of our sin did, yes, need a program. I could not have focused on my sin properly without a program. Maybe that makes me weak, but then if I was not weak, I would not have been addicted to alcohol. Some of us - okay, let's just say ME - I knew about the freedom I had in Christ but y'now I could use Romans 14:14 to justify drinking, and tell myself I wasn't in sin, so it did take something more to convince me of my sin. Perhaps you don't think that alcoholism is a sin? I don't know your position on that. I certainly believe that worshipping any false idol, the way that i worshipped alcohol, was a sin. So, I'm glad that you got free from captivity by "just taking it in" but it does not work that way for everyone.

Yes, I absolutely feel drunkeness is a sin. I have grown to dismiss the disease concept of alcoholism which is the more popular and secular definition. I do, however, believe that we each are drawn to particular sins. For example, the sin of drunkeness is definitely a sin which I was once inextricably drawn towards.

What about other sins though, Laurentia? Do you feel there should be groups and programs for sinners who habitually sin with adultery? Or homosexuality? Or murder? Or whatever else? You see where I am going with this?

Look, I haven't always felt the way I do. I spent years in AA first. I once believed in the disease concept of alcoholism. I once worked my way into freedom. In other words, I used to feel following steps, sponsoring more, praying more, meditating more, and constantly admitting to myself and others that I was a sinner (alcoholic or whatever) would get me closer to being truly free. You know, I never quite got there thinking and feeling that way. I was always missing something even when I became a Christian. Even as a Christian (for a while) I felt I was missing something. I felt like there was something just beyond my grasp.

When I started studying about our Identity in Christ the lights came on! I finally got it! I realized that I had it backwards for a long time. See, we (brothers and sisters in Christ) became free the very second we accepted the atoning blood of Jesus Christ! We received the Holy Spirit! We received the Mind of Christ! I don't need to work towards anything! I already have everything! If I allow Jesus Christ to work in me and through me, I will bear fruits of the Spirit. This is a huge concept and truth to grasp. Again, this is the message I am trying to relate. Programs and groups don't teach this by their very nature. Programs and groups teach works. Do you understand me? Please ponder this and think about it.

Finally, bear in mind Romans 14:13 - "Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."

Please don't put an obstacle in the way of those who need a group to reach sobriety, nor judge them for it. Without CR, and without another Christian program I have been following, I would still be wallowing in sin.

God bless you, L

I am not trying to judge nor put an abstacle in the way. I am teaching a different way of thinking. Actually, it's not different because it's biblical. It's just that our Christian culture has changed and we have allowed ourselves to be influenced by secular thought. Please try to see what I am doing as being helpful and ponder what I am saying.

Blessings,

SOTK

 

[JaneFW]

Okay, well I saw this:

We don't need "steps" or more sponsors or to pray more.

and figured that you didn't think that mentors were biblical. My bad.

What about other sins though, Laurentia? Do you feel there should be groups and programs for sinners who habitually sin with adultery? Or homosexuality? Or murder? Or whatever else? You see where I am going with this?

You see, I don't have a problem with "groups". Groups to me can provide mentoring for people with all of these sins. Many churches do provide a mentor for men with porn issues, and I can't see any problem with anyone with a problem having a mentor. I find that talking to Christians who have been through the sin of alcoholism and have gotten free to be tremendously uplifting and positive, and I don't see why that shouldn't be extended to other sin issues. Murderers, or people doing time for crimes should not be ignored either. The word of God needs to go to everyone.

When I started studying about our Identity in Christ the lights came on! I finally got it! I realized that I had it backwards for a long time. See, we (brothers and sisters in Christ) became free the very second we accepted the atoning blood of Jesus Christ! We received the Holy Spirit! We received the Mind of Christ! I don't need to work towards anything! I already have everything! If I allow Jesus Christ to work in me and through me, I will bear fruits of the Spirit. This is a huge concept and truth to grasp. Again, this is the message I am trying to relate. Programs and groups don't teach this by their very nature. Programs and groups teach works. Do you understand me? Please ponder this and think about it.

I guess I just don't see where "works" come into it with CR. I don't "do" AA, so I can't comment about that group. When I was in CR, I didn't have any works to show to anyone. I went to group, and I went to step meetings. We worked through the book, discussed scriptures, shared experiences and prayed. My eyes were opened by the scriptures that we shared, and I was able to see the wood for the trees. I think that is something you mean when you say that the "identity of Christ" was what changed you. I think that's what happened to me also. I saw my sin, I saw what I needed to do: to get my "living water" from Christ, and not from a bottle.

I once believed in the disease concept of alcoholism. I once worked my way into freedom. In other words, I used to feel following steps, sponsoring more, praying more, meditating more, and constantly admitting to myself and others that I was a sinner (alcoholic or whatever) would get me closer to being truly free.

This isn't how CR works. The steps, yes, but there is no emphasis on studying MORE or meditating MORE .. it's more like doing a prolonged Bible study. It opened my eyes to scripture more fully. Yep, that's a "more" but for me it was a good "more" - but I didn't feel that this would "make me" sober, I felt that it would, and did, bring me closer to Christ, and understanding Him, and following Him rather than my flesh.

I do ponder what you say. I just guess I see things differently. I would certainly say to anyone reading these posts that they should truly open their eyes to the nature of Christ, and to the gift that He gave us .. but don't rule out getting help from your church, if and when necessary.

God bless, L

 

[LoG]

I decided that before I responded to SOTK's latest round of recovery and Step bashing that I would spend a few days praying and meditating on some of the issues being raised.

First off, why this condemnation of the word "sponsor" and acceptance of "mentor" or "accountabilty partner" since they are different words meaning the same thing. This seems like a grasping at straws.

As far as the term "12 Steps" is concerned, we know it is not in the bible. Neither are the terms "positional truth", "five points of Calvinism", "Trinity", "rapture", "Nicene Creed", etc. They are simply sets of ideas and interpretations of the Bible that are given a name to refer to them. From this we should be able to see that just because a term is not in the Bible, it is not an unscriptural concept or principle.

I do have to thank you SOTK for continuing to bring up positional truth. Through the years of sponsoring people, I have run into those who like you did not benefit from or were even able to do the fourth Step. Looking at their sins or character defects was too much for them to be able to do because of their own self-condemnation. As you have stated there was no awareness of who they are in the Lord's eyes and how they were now free from condemnation. I could never understand until now why these people who had accepted Jesus as their saviour could not continue on in repenting from their past misdeeds and truly be set free from their old lifestyles. It is the freedom from the condemnation of sin that allows us to examine ourselves as the Lord asks us to do in quite a number of verses.

Lam 3:40 Let us search and examine our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Psa 119:59 I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto your testimonies.
Psa 119:60 I made haste, and delayed not to keep your commandments.

Pro 4:26 Ponder the path of your feet, and let all your ways be established.

1Co 11:28 A person must examine himself and then eat the bread and drink from the cup.

There are also verses were Paul talks of striving to win the prize, subjecting his body to self-control, not leaving the goal of attaining perfection to chance.

I don't need to work towards anything! I already have everything! If I allow Jesus Christ to work in me and through me, I will bear fruits of the Spirit. This is a huge concept and truth to grasp. Again, this is the message I am trying to relate. Programs and groups don't teach this by their very nature. Programs and groups teach works. Do you understand me? Please ponder this and think about it.

You are correct that 12 Step programs do not teach that we do nothing. Neither does the Bible!! We strive for righteousness and perfection and thank God when He gives us a measure of success. Jesus has a much easier time working in us when we are an empty vessel than one who is selfish, self-centred, self absorbed, delusional and deceived. When we turn our will and life over to God as in Step 3, we are free from the condemnation of sin and able to start looking at these unloving and self-defeating behaviours and to repent of and look to the Lord for their removal.

"Positional Truth" is contained within Step 3 and is touched on by the author of the Alcoholics Anonymous book although not in the exact same terms. If we were to stop at Step 3, we in effect would be stuck in the "milk of the Word" that Paul refers on several occasions.

Heb 5:12 In fact, though by now you should be teachers, you still need someone to teach you the basic truths of God's word. You have become people who need milk instead of solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is still a baby and is inexperienced in the message of righteousness.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for mature people, whose minds are trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

Who we are in Jesus is a basic truth of the Word, without which we could not grow further in our salvation . Our salvation btw is something we are to work out with fear and trembling, (Phillipians 2:12) because after all "faith without works is dead". (James 2:17)

I hope you are open to prayerfully studying the Word in this matter and seek the Lord for all answers.

A reference for the 12 Steps and the Bible. http://www.12step.org/references/bible_steps.php

 

[SOTK]

Okay, well I saw this:and figured that you didn't think that mentors were biblical.

Ahh...I see how you thought that now. Okay, what I was trying to relate in that quote you used of mine was legalism. When we think praying more, meditating more, sponsoring more, going to more "meetings", going to church more, or whatever else is going to make us more appealing to God, to ourselves, or to others we are wrong. That's called legalism or you can think of it as a works based mindset. Those things in and of themselves are not legalistic, however, they become legalisic when and if we rely upon them for the things I stated above.

I have a problem with AA and groups like CR because that's all I hear in them. If you do this more and that more, you'll be fine. If you stop going to meetings and don't do this and that, you'll sin (drink). That's legalistic. It also, whether intentional or unintentional, starts removing God from the picture.

My bad.You see, I don't have a problem with "groups". Groups to me can provide mentoring for people with all of these sins.

I don't have a problem with groups of Christians meeting with each other either provided their source material is scripturally sound and that legalism or the works based mentality is not used.

Many churches do provide a mentor for men with porn issues, and I can't see any problem with anyone with a problem having a mentor.

Neither do I.

I find that talking to Christians who have been through the sin of alcoholism and have gotten free to be tremendously uplifting and positive, and I don't see why that shouldn't be extended to other sin issues.

Yep, me either.

Murderers, or people doing time for crimes should not be ignored either. The word of God needs to go to everyone.

Yep, I couldn't agree more.

I guess I just don't see where "works" come into it with CR. I don't "do" AA, so I can't comment about that group. When I was in CR, I didn't have any works to show to anyone.

It is my contention that "steps" are works. The mentality is placed into our heads that if we do not do them, we will continue to sin. I know that this is a strong word, but I find this idea heretical.

I've been to both AA and CR meetings where this mentality is reinforced over and over again. The recovery movement in our culture has reinforced the idea of reliance upon a thing as a means for dealing with habitual sin. God can be talked about in these "steps" sure. Again, I know that CR even uses scripture in their recovery philosophy, however, the mentality of doing something as the primary means of dealing with habitual sin remains.

I went to group, and I went to step meetings. We worked through the book, discussed scriptures, shared experiences and prayed. My eyes were opened by the scriptures that we shared, and I was able to see the wood for the trees. I think that is something you mean when you say that the "identity of Christ" was what changed you. I think that's what happened to me also. I saw my sin, I saw what I needed to do: to get my "living water" from Christ, and not from a bottle. This isn't how CR works. The steps, yes, but there is no emphasis on studying MORE or meditating MORE .. it's more like doing a prolonged Bible study. It opened my eyes to scripture more fully. Yep, that's a "more" but for me it was a good "more" - but I didn't feel that this would "make me" sober, I felt that it would, and did, bring me closer to Christ, and understanding Him, and following Him rather than my flesh.

Laurentia,

I am so glad that you had your eyes opened in CR. I truly am. Hey, in a sense, God used my time in AA to open my eyes. AA and CR aren't all bad. I am grateful for what occured to me through my time in AA, however, this doesn't mean that AA is right either. I believe AA is very well intentioned. I can say the same for CR. I think the people behind the creation of AA and groups like CR were extremely well intentioned, but I don't believe well intentioned equates biblical accuracy. Personally, I feel the legalistic nature of the principles set forth in these type of groups does harm.

I do ponder what you say. I just guess I see things differently. I would certainly say to anyone reading these posts that they should truly open their eyes to the nature of Christ, and to the gift that He gave us .. but don't rule out getting help from your church, if and when necessary.

God bless, L

Thanks. Yes, we all can't see things the same which is why communicating and studying the Bible together is so important. God's Word is the ultimate authority and is where I attempt to gain all my understanding, but I know my understanding of His Word can sometimes be off hence the importance of brothers and sisters having Bible studies!

Blessings,

SOTK

 

[SOTK]

Lion of God,

Thanks for your well thought out post. I am looking forward to responding to it. I am busy and only had time to respond to Laurentia. I promise to respond when I can. This is probably just as well though. It will give me time to ponder on what you said.

Be back later,

SOTK

 

[SOTK]

I decided that before I responded to SOTK's latest round of recovery and Step bashing that I would spend a few days praying and meditating on some of the issues being raised.

Lion of God,

As I stated earlier, I appreciated your well thought out post. I can tell you put time and effort into it as well as meditated on it. Thank you.

I fully realize, believe me, that what I have been writing about is unpopular. I know it comes across as critical, judgemental, and maybe even appears as damaging to you and others. I know this, because I once felt this way. When I first began investigating more closely the recovery movement, I was astonished at what I was reading. My first reactions were not unlike yours and others; however, as I read more, studied the scriptures more, and prayed on it more, I could not deny the truth of it. Please understand that there was a process that I went through. I just didn't suddenly wake up one day and change my mind on all of this. My change in thinking and belief was gradual. It took time, and I went through a lot to get to where I am at. I just want you and any others reading this to understand that.

First off, why this condemnation of the word "sponsor" and acceptance of "mentor" or "accountabilty partner" since they are different words meaning the same thing. This seems like a grasping at straws.

Okay, I think I covered this with my latest reply to Laurentia. I don't have a problem with the word "sponsor" nor do I have a problem with "mentor" or "accountability partner".

The only problem I have with mentors (sponsors or whatever a person wishes to call them) is when people are motivated to have them for the wrong reasons. This wrong motivation occurs a lot in recovery programs. It doesn't all the time, but I have personally witnessed it happen quite a bit of the time.

As far as the term "12 Steps" is concerned, we know it is not in the bible. Neither are the terms "positional truth", "five points of Calvinism", "Trinity", "rapture", "Nicene Creed", etc. They are simply sets of ideas and interpretations of the Bible that are given a name to refer to them. From this we should be able to see that just because a term is not in the Bible, it is not an unscriptural concept or principle.

True, however, the theology behind the "Five Points of Calvinism" or "Positional Truth" don't remove nor change the reliance upon God. In fact, they enhance it in my opinion. Most of these "ideas" you bring up are scripturally based with a heavy amount of good exegesis. More importantly the "12 Steps" are non-salvific. They are secular in nature however spiritual they might seem.

Lion of God,

Do you claim that the "12 Steps" are a form of theology?

Finally, one of the bigger reasons behind my rejection of the "12 Steps" to recovery has to do with AA's (the recovery movement's) belief in the disease concept of "alcoholism". The Bible very clearly identifies drunkeness as sin. Sin is choice. While I believe one could easily label sin as a "disease" and they would be right because it can cause death, the fact remains that we choose to sin. There is only one "cure" for sin and that "cure" is Jesus Christ! No amount of "steps" can save us from our sinful nature.

I do have to thank you SOTK for continuing to bring up positional truth. Through the years of sponsoring people, I have run into those who like you did not benefit from or were even able to do the fourth Step. Looking at their sins or character defects was too much for them to be able to do because of their own self-condemnation. As you have stated there was no awareness of who they are in the Lord's eyes and how they were now free from condemnation. I could never understand until now why these people who had accepted Jesus as their saviour could not continue on in repenting from their past misdeeds and truly be set free from their old lifestyles. It is the freedom from the condemnation of sin that allows us to examine ourselves as the Lord asks us to do in quite a number of verses.

I agree. I would never argue against the idea of self-examination which is easily what repentance is in the Bible.

There are also verses were Paul talks of striving to win the prize, subjecting his body to self-control, not leaving the goal of attaining perfection to chance.

Yes, but is it we who strive to win or Jesus Christ who is in us and ultimately deserves the credit for allowing us to "win the race"?

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

bold emphasis mine

2 Corinthians 3:4-5
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,

You are correct that 12 Step programs do not teach that we do nothing. Neither does the Bible!! We strive for righteousness and perfection and thank God when He gives us a measure of success.

See, that's a works based mentality, Lion of God. We strive. We should do steps. Look at the we which you are using. It is Christ who works in us to bear righteousness and perfection. Not us! Again, the "12 Steps" reinforce works. Good works naturally occur when we rest in God and allow the Holy Spirit to bear them. They don't come from us!!! God deserves all the credit!

Jesus has a much easier time working in us when we are an empty vessel than one who is selfish, self-centred, self absorbed, delusional and deceived. When we turn our will and life over to God as in Step 3, we are free from the condemnation of sin and able to start looking at these unloving and self-defeating behaviours and to repent of and look to the Lord for their removal.

Yes, you are making sense here. I'm in agreement with you.

"Positional Truth" is contained within Step 3 and is touched on by the author of the Alcoholics Anonymous book although not in the exact same terms. If we were to stop at Step 3, we in effect would be stuck in the "milk of the Word" that Paul refers on several occasions.

Hmmm...."Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of God as we understood Him". That's a "Positional Truth"? I think it goes without saying I have a problem with the "as we understood Him" part. That part is blasphemous. Turning our life over the care of God is great. I obviously can't argue against that, however, I fail to see how you are equating it with positional truth. A positional truth would be "we finally realized that our life was always in the care of God and we therefore make the decision to repent of our sins and allow Jesus Christ to work in us for the betterment of His Will, and His Will for us".

I agree with you that this is a huge concept to grasp. Without truly understanding it, I do believe one would be "stuck in the Milk of the Word" as you paraphrased.

Who we are in Jesus is a basic truth of the Word, without which we could not grow further in our salvation . Our salvation btw is something we are to work out with fear and trembling, (Phillipians 2:12) because after all "faith without works is dead". (James 2:17)

Ahhh...the old "faith without works is dead" scripture reference. Do you know I have spent countless hours debating this piece of scripture with "Christians" who argue works are necessary for salvation? This is one of the most abused pieces of scripture in the Bible. It's constantly taken out of context. People forget that works come from faith and vise versa. You can't have one without the other. James was addressing hypocrisy with his teaching in James 2. In other words, we are known by our fruits. James 2:17 isn't a prooftext for the importance of humanistic works nor God's enjoyment of them nor are they a requirement of salvation.

Romans 4:1-4
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

I hope you are open to prayerfully studying the Word in this matter and seek the Lord for all answers.

I am and will continue to do so, my friend. You too!

Again, I want to remind you and everyone that I came to have this opinion after careful examination, meditation, prayer, and debate. I had many an argument with a couple of brothers who came to believe what I now believe first.

A reference for the 12 Steps and the Bible. http://www.12step.org/references/bible_steps.php

A couple of articles to read and think on:
http://www.exdrunkard.com
http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter/html/2005/oct05.php

Blessings,

SOTK

 

[oneishmael]

Hi, I am new to this site. I thought I would start a thread for Alcoholic/Addict Discussion topics. This thread could also be used for general support and encouragement.

I am a recovered alcoholic of nine years. Seven of these years has been spent as a Blood Bought Son of the King. Praise God! I got sober through AA and spent the majority of my sobriety in that program. I really bought into the practical applications of the 12 steps. In a sense, I still agree with some of the philosophy of AA, however, as a Christian I look at my past addiction to alcohol differently than I once did. I have different opinions on this subject today and this is one thing that we could talk about in this thread (one of many topics).

I hope this thread will spark some very helpful and beneficial discussion. As I said, it's meant to be supportive as well.

SOTK

Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.

 

[SOTK]

Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.

Sorry to hear that, brother. There has been some good commentary in this particular thread. There are other threads around here as well that may be helpful to you. Just remember that Jesus Christ can forgive us of all things. Jesus Christ is in us. If we allow Him to work in us, the fruit we will bear will be righteous and good. We often forget that Jesus Christ has already conquered sin. We don't have to partake in it anymore.

In Christ,

SOTK

 

[JaneFW]

Thanks,blew 21 months. Would have been 2 years today . Struggling with desire-know the way, just having a hard time getting back on the path.

Oneishmael, please don't get too tied down by numbers. You had sobriety, you slipped and fell. You can pick it up and start over any time you want to: you know that God is a God of second chances, right?? He will wash you clean and you can begin again. If you don't know how to - can I lend to you my favorite prayer, which is Psalm 51? This is how I talked to God when I could not strive into sobriety:

Psalm 51
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts;
you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.
14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.
18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper;
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices,
whole burnt offerings to delight you;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.

Praise God that you did find freedom from the captivity of alcoholism and praise God that you can do it again.

 

[LoG]

I fully realize, believe me, that what I have been writing about is unpopular. I know it comes across as critical, judgemental, and maybe even appears as damaging to you and others. I know this, because I once felt this way. When I first began investigating more closely the recovery movement, I was astonished at what I was reading.

What surprises me is that someone who has done all the Steps to the best of their ability, had a spiritual awakening as a result, would then start to give credibility to those whose words show they have not done the Steps or have a good grasp of the Scriptures.

The Exdrunkard for example tells how after rejecting Celebrate Recovery principles he relapsed more than a dozen times:

I “fell off” about 5 times during the first year and 4 during the second year. During the third year of my new life in Jesus I noticed that the time elapsing between these incidents got further and further apart. After abstaining for 16 months during a period that began in 1976, there were a couple of incidents in 1977 and I got drunk for the last time on January 2, 1978.

His answer to the relapses was that he should have:

I now believe sincerely that if I had persevered in prayer during those major times of temptation during my first few years as a believer, that the incidents of backsliding would have been far fewer.

Which you have previously stated to be a works based philosophy. He may be written in the Book of Life, but his road to get there could have been easier considering that God put CR in his path early on. The undertones of his story proves what can happen if we do not follow the leading of the Spirit even if it doesn't always feel comfortable.

The other link you provided is interesting in a different way. The author goes to great lengths in an attempt to critisize CR and 12 Step recovery in spite of seeing:

What I learned right away was that the 3,000 or so in attendance had a tremendous zeal for the Lord and an unquestionable sincerity in desiring to help those who were struggling with habitual sin. This was my impression in all of my interactions—with individuals, in small groups, in workshop sessions, and in the general worship sessions.

Here the author states that these people show a strong and obvious indwelling of the Spirit and then goes on to condemn the manner in which that came about and how it doesn't agree with his opinion.

If God chooses to utilize such a program to draw people unto Himself and impart to them a strong Christlike spirit, then the author is being amazingly presumpteous and pharisaical in condemning it. Reminds one of:

Mat 9:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.
Mat 9:34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Again and again through the gospels it is shown that the pharisees were incapable of discerning that which was from God because it didn't fit into their interpretations. It was only through accepting the very thing they were against that their eyes would be opened. Much like for the author of the above article.

The only problem I have with mentors (sponsors or whatever a person wishes to call them) is when people are motivated to have them for the wrong reasons. This wrong motivation occurs a lot in recovery programs. It doesn't all the time, but I have personally witnessed it happen quite a bit of the time.

"Wrong motivations" and "works" are an issue in any spiritual path because human nature gets involved in the process. You critisize the 12 Steps because there may be some that don't approach it in the right way. By extension you judge the bible because there are many who utlilize the same approach in their attempt to find "salvation".

True, however, the theology behind the "Five Points of Calvinism" or "Positional Truth" don't remove nor change the reliance upon God. In fact, they enhance it in my opinion. Most of these "ideas" you bring up are scripturally based with a heavy amount of good exegesis.

Although that debate is more appropriate in another section of the forum, imo, Calvinism is more of an eisegesis than exegesis interpretation.

More importantly the "12 Steps" are non-salvific. They are secular in nature however spiritual they might seem.

Do you claim that the "12 Steps" are a form of theology?

Why do you believe they are secular in nature? Is there really such a thing as secular? My bible leads me to believe that if it isn't from God, it is from Satan. I grant that Satan can appear as an angel of light, but will only appear so for a short period of time before his true nature is seen. The fruit that he produces does not make one zealous for God or compassionate for others, neither does it produce long term healing. Rather his fruit sets one up for:

Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The 12 Steps are not a theology because they do not attempt to answer who God is or His nature outside of Him being loving. Theology and religiousity is for those who are into the wrong type of works.

Finally, one of the bigger reasons behind my rejection of the "12 Steps" to recovery has to do with AA's (the recovery movement's) belief in the disease concept of "alcoholism". The Bible very clearly identifies drunkeness as sin. Sin is choice. While I believe one could easily label sin as a "disease" and they would be right because it can cause death, the fact remains that we choose to sin. There is only one "cure" for sin and that "cure" is Jesus Christ! No amount of "steps" can save us from our sinful nature.

A number of misconceptions and errors here.

Drunkeness and the disease of alcoholism are not the same thing. One can be a drunk and yet not have the disease. Drunkeness is a precursor to the disease itself but not everyone will contract alcoholism. The same as overindulging in sweets can lead to diabetes. Diabetes is not a sin although it can be the result of it by not being moderate in one's diet.
Considering your stated age, SOTK and the number of years you have abstained, leads me to wonder whether you simply had a propensity towards drunkeness without atually contracting the disease itself. I've not known many who actually had the disease by the age of 22 or 23. This would explain why you believe that you had a choice in the matter. AA is for those who come to realize that they have lost the power of choice which comes from having stepped over the line into alcoholism.

You also contradict yourself when you state that sin is a choice but then state that Jesus is the only cure to sin. If sin is truly a choice then Jesus is not the only cure.

I agree. I would never argue against the idea of self-examination which is easily what repentance is in the Bible.

I gather that you don't have a problem with any specific aspect or Step individually, but just as a whole. You appear to see the 12 Steps as an idol as opposed to the toolkit that AA says they are. They are not a god but a way to approach God. They will not cure alcoholism by themselves but through them we are able to approach God and find the power of choice necessary to abstain from indulging in that sin that had a hold on us.

See, that's a works based mentality, Lion of God. We strive. We should do steps. Look at the we which you are using. It is Christ who works in us to bear righteousness and perfection. Not us!

You are correct about what Christ does in us and yet he also commanded us to repent of ours sins. It is up to us to identify them, admit them, ask God to remove them, and be reconciled to those we have hurt through our shortcomings and sins. It is through that process that the proper heart attitude and humility is developed within us. This is something that many churches fail to teach.

Hmmm...."Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of God as we understood Him". That's a "Positional Truth"? I think it goes without saying I have a problem with the "as we understood Him" part. That part is blasphemous.

Blasphemous? How so? Do you not realize that every Christian in the world understands God in a slightly different way? We each see that aspect of God that is relevant to us individually. It is this that makes Him a "personal" God. He is the answer to my need which is different from the answer He is to you. We can take that even further when we consider all the different churches in Christianity. Catholics have a different perspective on the nature of God then Protestants do. Calvinists different from Pentecostals, Lutherans different from Baptists etc. Then we have Bhuddism, Islams, Hinduism, Confusciounism, etc. etc.
All with a slightly different perspective on the nature of God.
AA and the 12 Steps leaves your own understanding of God up to you for you to develop. The nature of God I believed in as a youth is different than the nature of God I believe today. Yet He is the same God in the same bible. It is how I understand Him that is different. If one's perspective of God does not change over time than He is not being sought.

Turning our life over the care of God is great. I obviously can't argue against that, however, I fail to see how you are equating it with positional truth. A positional truth would be "we finally realized that our life was always in the care of God and we therefore make the decision to repent of our sins and allow Jesus Christ to work in us for the betterment of His Will, and His Will for us".

Ok, so a little more long-winded than "Made a decision to turn our will and life over to the care of God as I understand Him." but not much different. My reference to "positional Truth in the AA BB regards Bill's rendition of the Third Step prayer:

Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!" We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.

In the AA book there are a number of other references to the type of relationship we have with God.

Ahhh...the old "faith without works is dead" scripture reference. Do you know I have spent countless hours debating this piece of scripture with "Christians" who argue works are necessary for salvation? This is one of the most abused pieces of scripture in the Bible. It's constantly taken out of context. People forget that works come from faith and vise versa. You can't have one without the other. James was addressing hypocrisy with his teaching in James 2. In other words, we are known by our fruits. James 2:17 isn't a prooftext for the importance of humanistic works nor God's enjoyment of them nor are they a requirement of salvation.

Take some time to meditate on the parable of the 3 servants and the talents. The one who didn't make his talent work for the Master was cast out into the outer darkness. The idea of some that since they have "faith" they can now sit back and do nothing and still get a free ticket to heaven is dangerous and unbiblical.

Personally I don't see following God's suggestions to pray, examine myself, promote His Kingdom, reconcile myself with my brother or help carry his burdens, etc as bad things because the more I do them the more He seems to bless me.

 

[bluesbob]

If I may step in...

In the forward of the Big Book of A.A. it says very clearly:

"We, of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book."

 

[MarkChristopher]

Hi Everyone!

I just wanted to stop by and say hello! I've been away from the forums for a while...but now I'm back.

I am still waging battle on the demon of alcoholism. Its a tough battle. It is still my goal to win to victory!

I hope you all have been doing well!

God Bless!

 

[cajunlady]

Hi All, stopping in to say hello. I haven't been here in a while. Haven't been feeeling well. May God bless all of you....Hugs to my sisters and brothers in Christ...

 

[TheListener]

Hi

I think it's time I can come out of the closet and let some fellow Christians in on a secret about me.

I struggled with drugs since I was 17 and have used daily for years. About 6 years ago I sought help through NA and I'm about 4 years clean and sober now.

My recovery journey brought me closer to God and eventually brought me to Jesus.