Alcohol - Is it sin?

[Brother Daniel 210]

BE NOT DRUNK seems explanatory enough.

I have no alcohol here at the house. If someone offers me a beer or a glass of wine, I have no problem drinking it. I don't seek out alcohol.

Have you ever been DRUNK? I have and can tell the difference between having an alcoholic drink and being drunk.

That's good that's all you have to know is your limit

 

[TheSeabass]

I find it noteworthy on topic.that Paul told the Corinthians off for the manner in which they ate the Lord's supper..
Starting before others had arrived and not leaving enough (being inconsiderate) for the late comers
AND they started early enough that by the time the late comers arrived they had become “drunken..”
This rather flies in the face of the non alcoholic wine theories .
Wine is wine.

If your smart you use it in great moderation or skip it all together.
Listen to what the Lord tells YOU.

“So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.”

The Greek word onios can mean cluster of grapes, grape juice or fermented wine. Many ignore this simple fact leading them in error on this subject by assuming Christ and the Apostles were speaking in English. My understanding is that even the English word wine did not always mean fermented wine but at one time also referred to unfermented juice.


For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken

Hungry is contrasted from drunken, that is,one is empty, without while another is full, sated.

Paul then says "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?..." If the Corinthians were getting drunk on fermented wine, then Paul approved of getting drunk at home which contradicts all passages that condemn drunkenness and abstaining. Yet Paul by saying "houses to eat to drink in" is not referring to fermented wine but is saying they can satiate their appetites at home. So the issue is not drunkenness in verse 21 but of one having none and another overindulging. If they were becoming drunk with fermented wine during the Lord's Supper Paul would have condemned it as he did in 1 Corinthians 5:11 and 6:10..."if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." They were not to be eating around drunkards. Paul reiterates the issue again in 1 Corinthians 11:33-34 where it is apparent the issue is not drunkenness but over indulgence.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Most people know what it is to be drunk.
You fall into error when going to this much of an extreme position.
Paul also recommends wine.
1 Timothy 5:23

• New King James Version
  No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

That's the quote I was thinking of. There is nothing wrong with drinking a little alcohol, but like anything else, excessive drinking can lead to problems, including alcoholism.

...........................

 

[Open Heart]

This is speculation. Drinking 4 cups of wine at Passover is a man made tradition and there is absolutely nothing that indicates that the Messiah drank 4 cups of wine at Passover.

It is NOT speculation. It says he took the cup. What do you think it was a cup of? Milk? I already answered the false claim that it was grape juice. The sacred use of wine in Israel goes all the way back. Yes, it's tradition--a tradition that goes back far earlier than Jesus. This is why Jews, who have blessings for all sorts of categories of foods, have a special blessing just for the fruit of the vine.

BTW, I misspoke. Today Jews drink four cups. In Jesus' day, it was three cups of wine. Keith Hunt - The Jewish Passover #1 - Page One

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well I dont drink... truth being.. I never cared for the taste. For ME...hard liqor would be wrong. My wife LOVES those coolers? Depends who you are around at times. If was with someone that KNEW it was wrong to drink anything.. I would have nothing Not about me

Dear brother Paul agrees with you.

Romans 14:
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.a]">[a] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
1 Corin:
9 Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you who are well informed eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged to eat food sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 By sinning against your brothers in this way and wounding their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to stumble.

My brother's daughter and her husband are both Messianic Christians and therefor only eat and drink kosher. So if they come over to dine, we make sure to serve them only kosher food and drinks.

.......................................

 

[bdmulneaux]

The Greek word oinos can mean anything from a cluster of grapes, to grape juice to fermented wine.

The Greek word oinos means wine or fermented juice, period. The Greek word for grape is staphylen.

 

[Alithis]

The Greek word onios can mean cluster of grapes, grape juice or fermented wine. Many ignore this simple fact leading them in error on this subject by assuming Christ and the Apostles were speaking in English. My understanding is that even the English word wine did not always mean fermented wine but at one time also referred to unfermented juice.


For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken

Hungry is contrasted from drunken, that is,one is empty, without while another is full, sated.

Paul then says "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in?..." If the Corinthians were getting drunk on fermented wine, then Paul approved of getting drunk at home which contradicts all passages that condemn drunkenness and abstaining. Yet Paul by saying "houses to eat to drink in" is not referring to fermented wine but is saying they can satiate their appetites at home. So the issue is not drunkenness in verse 21 but of one having none and another overindulging. If they were becoming drunk with fermented wine during the Lord's Supper Paul would have condemned it as he did in 1 Corinthians 5:11 and 6:10..."if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." They were not to be eating around drunkards. Paul reiterates the issue again in 1 Corinthians 11:33-34 where it is apparent the issue is not drunkenness but over indulgence.

Talk about stretching and mangling words beyond recognition to force fit a preferred stance.

Drunk means drunk... Full of food means full of food.
Eat And Drink.it speaks of both so one does not mean the other.

2000 years ago they did not have refridgeration.
Fermenting of grape juice (only available for harvest in season) was the only way to store the stuff.
Otherwise you just had rancid putrid likely coagulated, mildly fermented germ ridden slush.
Alcohol free wine is a relatively modern invent .

Just to note. Personally I drink absolutely Zero alcohol.
Though for the sake of communion in fellwship I would do so so as not to offend another.
But I would not impose that upon another.

But nor would I consider having a car trunk Bbq with bears in the sports car park to be Godly behaviour .but a conforming to the world and a terrible witness of Jesus.bringing his Good name into disrepute. (ie, not loving him but rather dishonoring him )

But to mangle words to fit a non scriptural prohibition... Is just dishonest.

 

[justbyfaith]

Some verses to look up on this subject are Romans 14:21, Ephesians 5:18, Proverbs 20:1, Proverbs 23:29-35, and Psalms 104:15 (the last to provide a balance to the opinions of the former scriptures).

 

[Adstar]

I think it started out with the best intentions.
Wasn't it the salvation army which did a lot of Gospel work with drinks from the streets. Making total abstinence a fully reasonable practice in that scenario.

Probably.. All it takes is a critical mass of people who have been badly affected by alcohol.. Either former alcoholics or Children and partners of alcoholics to form a community that is hard core against alcohol and very much desirous to be told that alcohol is the devils drink... You know the most fanatical anti-smokers are former smokers.. Same goes for Alcohol..

 

[Alithis]

Actually sometimes the most fanatical (which is an imbalance) anti.. Individuals are the ones most desiring to do it in their hearts .

Probably.. All it takes is a critical mass of people who have been badly affected by alcohol.. Either former alcoholics or Children and partners of alcoholics to form a community that is hard core against alcohol and very much desirous to be told that alcohol is the devils drink... You know the most fanatical anti-smokers are former smokers.. Same goes for Alcohol..

 

[Adstar]

Actually sometimes the most fanatical (which is an imbalance) anti.. Individuals are the ones most desiring to do it in their hearts .

That is actually a sharp observation...

Often people think that everyone is life them in their hearts.. So if they are desirous to do something bad they think everyone else probably desires to do what they want to do..

 

[TheSeabass]

The Greek word oinos means wine or fermented juice, period. The Greek word for grape is staphylen.

No it doesn't.

 

[TheSeabass]

Actually sometimes the most fanatical (which is an imbalance) anti.. Individuals are the ones most desiring to do it in their hearts .

The bible's prohibition on drinking is 'fanatical'?

 

[Alithis]

The bible's prohibition on drinking is 'fanatical'?

When folks get a little heated in an effort to defend a preferred stance .
They often try to twist words.

But while bible the decries drunkenness it does not demand a prohibition on drinking.
If you read back through the thread you will see it's Been well covered.

 

[TheSeabass]

Talk about stretching and mangling words beyond recognition to force fit a preferred stance.

Drunk means drunk... Full of food means full of food.
Eat And Drink.it speaks of both so one does not mean the other.

2000 years ago they did not have refridgeration.
Fermenting of grape juice (only available for harvest in season) was the only way to store the stuff.
Otherwise you just had rancid putrid likely coagulated, mildly fermented germ ridden slush.
Alcohol free wine is a relatively modern invent .

Just to note. Personally I drink absolutely Zero alcohol.
Though for the sake of communion in fellwship I would do so so as not to offend another.
But I would not impose that upon another.

But nor would I consider having a car trunk Bbq with bears in the sports car park to be Godly behaviour .but a conforming to the world and a terrible witness of Jesus.bringing his Good name into disrepute. (ie, not loving him but rather dishonoring him )

But to mangle words to fit a non scriptural prohibition... Is just dishonest.

2. The Meaning of the Verb Methuo

"Filled to the Full." It is generally assumed that drunkenness occurred at the Communion table of the Corinthian church. But is this true? Those who believe so base their conclusion on the common translation of the verb methuei , namely, "is drunk." The whole phrase in the RSV reads: "One is hungry and another is drunk" (1 Corinthians 11:21). On the basis of this translation many reason that if intoxicating wine was used by the Corinthians without apostolic rebuke, it can also be used by Christians today.

The fundamental fallacy of such reasoning is that it assumes that methuo means only "to be drunk." But our study of its usage in John 2:11 has shown that the verb methuo does not always signify intoxication and drunkenness. The context determines its exact meaning. In this case methuei is used antithetically to peina "hungry" and this requires that the verb be understood in the generic sense of "satiated" rather than in the narrow sense of "drunk."

Leon C. Field makes this point clearly and conclusively: "Methuei , in this case, is plainly contrasted with peina which is correctly rendered as 'hungry.' The antithesis, therefore, requires the former to be understood in the generic sense of 'surfeited,' not in the narrow sense of 'drunken.' The overfilled man is compared to the underfilled man. This is the interpretation adopted by the great body of expositors, ancient and modern."

Scholarly Support. Among the expositors cited by Field are Chrysostom, Bengel, Grotius, Wycliff, Kuinoel, Bilroth, MacKnight, Newcome, Bloomfield, Clarke, Lightfoot, Dean Stanley, and Whedom. Another who could be mentioned is Clement of Alexandria, who lived only a century and a half after Paul. In his Instructor (book 2, 1), Clement, as A. W. Samson points out, "contradicts the suggestion that intoxicating wine was there used. He indicates that it is food rather than the drink of the feast to which Paul refers, and that he reproves them for 'clutching at the delicacies,' for 'eating beyond the demands of nourishment.'"

Adam Clarke makes the same point in his commentary on this text: "The people came together, and it appears brought their provisions with them; some had much, others had less; some ate to excess, others had scarcely enough to suffice nature. 'One was hungry, and the other was drunken, methuei, was filled to the full;' this is the sense of the word in many places of Scripture."

The Greek translation of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint, provides numerous examples where methuo is used in the generic sense of "filled to the full." One of them is Psalm 23:5 which says: "my cup overflows" (methuskon -full to the brim). Another example is Psalm 65:10: "Thou waterest its furrows abundantly [methuson]." Yet another is Jeremiah 31:14: "I will feast [methuso -satiate] the soul of the priests with abundance." Examples such as these clearly show that methuo is often used in Scripture in a generic sense to express full satisfaction, satiety.
http://mijoko55.com/files/Myths about wine and alcohol in the Bible part 2.pdf

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Filled or Drunk?

Because of the general meaning of this Greek word methuo, some has presumed that methuo means primarily drunk or drunkenness. With this, John 2:10 can be interpreted so that Jesus intoxicated the people at the wedding feast in Cana, and others interpret 1 Corinthians 10:21 to imply that “the fruit of the grapevine” of the Lord’s Supper was alcoholic and people could get drunk from it. This article proposes upon facts that this is all misinterpretation.This is true. The Greek word methuo is the word used to show that the act of being filled with an intoxicant is a sin (Rom 13:13; 1 Cor 5:11; 6:10; Gal 5:21; Eph 5:18; 1 Thess 5:7). The word methuo refers to one being filled with an intoxicant being a sin while not necessarily being intoxicated. First Peter 4:3 has a different Greek word oinophlugia that is often translated “drunkenness,” but the word is literally made of two different words for “wine” (oinos) and “filled” (phlugia).

A Word Study

Here are the uses of methuo from the Greek Old Testament that show that the word does not exclusively imply intoxication:

• Psalm 23:5, “You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; You have anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows.” *Was God getting David drunk in front of his enemies?
• Psalm 36:8, “They are abundantly satisfied with the fullness of Your house, And You give them drink from the river of Your pleasures.” *Notice the parallelism between “abundantly satisfied” and “give them drink from the river.”
• Psalm 65:9-10, “You visit the earth and water it, You greatly enrich it; The river of God is full of water; You provide their grain, For so You have prepared it. (10) You water its ridges abundantly, You settle its furrows; You make it soft with showers, You bless its growth.” *These same verses use the words methuo. Here, God waters the earth abundantly, but He does not get it drunk.
• Isaiah 34:5, “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.”
• Isaiah 34:7, “The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness” (cf. Deut. 32:42, Jer. 46:10). *See the parallelism between “soaked” and “saturated”.
• Isaiah 51:21, “Therefore please hear this, you afflicted, And drunk but not with wine.”
• Isaiah 55:10, “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater,” *The earth is not intoxicated, but filled with water.
• Isaiah 58:11, “The LORD will guide you continually, And satisfy your soul in drought, And strengthen your bones; You shall be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.” *Note the parallelism between “watered garden” and “waters do not fail”. The garden was not intoxicated.
• Jeremiah 31:14, “I will satiate the soul of the priests with abundance, And My people shall be satisfied with My goodness, says the LORD.” *Also, compare “satiate” to its parallel “satisfied”. The priests were not intoxicated.
• Jeremiah 31:25, “For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.” *Note the parallelism between “satiated” and “replenished”.
• Lamentations 3:15, “He has filled me with bitterness, He has made me drink wormwood.” *Notice also the parallelism between “drink” and being “filled”.
• Haggai 1:6, “You have sown much, and bring in little; You eat, but do not have enough; You drink, but you are not filled with drink; You clothe yourselves, but no one is warm; And he who earns wages, Earns wages to put into a bag with holes.” *Again, note the parallelism between “not filled” with “not have enough”.

With this knowledge, one can interpret:

• John 2:10, “And he said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!’” *These are filled, but are not drunk.
• 1 Corinthians 11:21, “For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk [filled].” *Each person is filled and not drunk.

Notice also the parallelism in the scriptures above showing that methuo means to be filled. This is also seen in Ephesians 5:18, “And do not be drunk [methuo] with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit”. *The actual instruction is to not be filled with wine, rather than simply not be intoxicated or drunk.
Reconsider the Biblical Concept of Drunkenness

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They had various ways to preserve grape juice.

 

[TheSeabass]

When folks get a little heated in an effort to defend a preferred stance .
They often try to twist words.

But while bible the decries drunkenness it does not demand a prohibition on drinking.
If you read back through the thread you will see it's Been well covered.

Prohibition is not my preferred stance but the bible's stance. Peter condemned drinking in varying degrees 1 Peter 4:3, Christians have been commanded to abstain (nepho) 1 Peter 5:8, Paul condemns taking the first drink Ephesians 5:18.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

@TheSeabass so do you think when Jesus was at the wedding festival in Cana that he made unfermented wine?

I am almost positive the man that sampled it and said this is the best wine would have known if it was unfermented.

 

[Alithis]

Prohibition is not my preferred stance but the bible's stance. Peter condemned drinking in varying degrees 1 Peter 4:3, Christians have been commanded to abstain (nepho) 1 Peter 5:8, Paul condemns taking the first drink Ephesians 5:18.

Like I said.....

Talk about stretching and mangling words beyond recognition to force fit a preferred stance.

Drunk means drunk... Full of food means full of food.
Eat And Drink.it speaks of both so one does not mean the other.

2000 years ago they did not have refridgeration.
Fermenting of grape juice (only available for harvest in season) was the only way to store the stuff.
Otherwise you just had rancid putrid likely coagulated, mildly fermented germ ridden slush.
Alcohol free wine is a relatively modern invent .

Just to note. Personally I drink absolutely Zero alcohol.
Though for the sake of communion in fellwship I would do so so as not to offend another.
But I would not impose that upon another.

But nor would I consider having a car trunk Bbq with bears in the sports car park to be Godly behaviour .but a conforming to the world and a terrible witness of Jesus.bringing his Good name into disrepute. (ie, not loving him but rather dishonoringhim )

But to mangle words to fit a non scriptural prohibition... Is just dishonest.
.....and when you need to post screeds of content to strangle a meaning out of a word... I get rather concerned .
Its quite like the rcc church advocates who do like wise

 

[Alithis]

@TheSeabass so do you think when Jesus was at the wedding festival in Cana that he made unfermented wine?

I am almost positive the man that sampled it and said this is the best wine would have known if it was unfermented.

I'd give that 2 or 3 stars if it let me lol.

 

[Goatee]

Alcohol is only a sin when you ain't got enough! Lol