aionios used of finite duration in koine Greek

[ClementofA]

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (or "age-lasting fire", or "eonian fire", etc, as more literal Bibles more accurately translate it, cf. Mt.25:46; 18:8) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & is not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0t...re is punishment, but not everlasting&f=false

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

part 2 next post...

 

[ClementofA]

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=t4...ned, a certain limit is again posited&f=false

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=oD... everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

You love to quote the opinions of men. But, the opinions of scholarly men didn't help the Jews find Jesus when He was here.

If someone suffers conscious torment for "an age" does that make it more palatable for you?

How are they cleansed by torment? If that cleanses us, why wouldn't God use that in the shorter temporal life here to get us right before having to be subjected to a longer "age" of torment, if that is in fact the case? I mean why have that intermediate stage? If God doesn't expect us to have a part in our process, why not just give us the spiritual lobotomy right away rather than consigning us to punishment due to faulty wiring and then fix it through the torture? That just doesn't make any sense on any level.

 

[ClementofA]

You love to quote the opinions of men. But, the opinions of scholarly men didn't help the Jews find Jesus when He was here.

The point is to understand the meaning of a word, aionios, in ancient koine Greek. Do you think, then, it might be a good idea to study how they used that word in context so we can discover what the word meant?

If someone suffers conscious torment for "an age" does that make it more palatable for you?

If a child of yours was suffering would it make no difference to you if it were for 5 minutes, or for eternity?

How are they cleansed by torment?

Cleansing of sin is by the blood of Jesus.

If that cleanses us, why wouldn't God use that in the shorter temporal life here to get us right before having to be subjected to a longer "age" of torment, if that is in fact the case? I mean why have that intermediate stage?

Clearly God uses punishment of sinners for their own good (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20, etc).

If God doesn't expect us to have a part in our process, why not just give us the spiritual lobotomy right away rather than consigning us to punishment due to faulty wiring and then fix it through the torture? That just doesn't make any sense on any level.

Our part in the process of salvation is faith & free will.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The point is to understand the meaning of a word, aionios, in ancient koine Greek. Do you think, then, it might be a good idea to study how they used that word in context so we can discover what the word meant?

My Response: And you in 2018 either have a better understanding of koine greek than the original English translators OR you have an agenda that you are trying to support by the choices you make in translating the words you need a different translation for. An age of only 1000 years would seem like an eternity to people who only live 80-100 years. I don't have to have an agenda. If because of His mercy, God chooses to punish unbelievers for "an age" instead of

If a child of yours was suffering would it make no difference to you if it were for 5 minutes, or for eternity?

My Response: If you think God is using "age" as a period of 5 minutes, you are beyond fooling yourself. Tell a prisoner of war--many of whom couldn't make it through the torture--that somehow it was designed to rehabilitate them to think better when they made it through or to love the ones who put them in the prison when they got out. Oh, and then tell them that the period they served as a POW is nowhere close to "an age". Over 2000 years ago, Jesus spoke about the end of this age. This age is still going.

You are claiming everyone is a child of God when Jesus clearly said and prayed otherwise. You are also divorcing yourself from the Old Testament where God didn't give 5 minutes of suffering to either His chosen people or the ones He ordered the Israelites to wipe out.

Cleansing of sin is by the blood of Jesus.

My response: If you believe that, then why insist that conscious torture is designed to be rehabilitative?

Clearly God uses punishment of sinners for their own good (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20, etc).

My response: God chastises those He loves. Chastisement is designed to change people. Punishment does not.

Our part in the process of salvation is faith & free will.

And yet, The Word of God says God gives faith. We are to use our free will to choose to believe based on what we see, according to the Word of God.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

They will never get out from there.

Re "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?

I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

"Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

"Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

 

[ClementofA]

And you in 2018 either have a better understanding of koine greek than the original English translators OR you have an agenda that you are trying to support by the choices you make in translating the words you need a different translation for.

Do you have a better understanding of Koine Greek than the early church father universalist Greek scholars whose native born tongue was Koine Greek? Obviously not.

An age of only 1000 years would seem like an eternity to people who only live 80-100 years. I don't have to have an agenda. If because of His mercy, God chooses to punish unbelievers for "an age" instead of

Your sentence wasn't completed. There is an infinite difference between a being who will torture in fire most of humanity forever & a God, Love Omnipotent, Who will not.

If you think God is using "age" as a period of 5 minutes, you are beyond fooling yourself.

Five seconds or billion years are both next to nothing compared to eternity.

Tell a prisoner of war--many of whom couldn't make it through the torture--that somehow it was designed to rehabilitate them to think better when they made it through or to love the ones who put them in the prison when they got out.

The Bible says God brings sufferings on people for their own good. Don't you believe the Scriptures?

You are claiming everyone is a child of God

Wrong.

You are also divorcing yourself from the Old Testament where God didn't give 5 minutes of suffering to either His chosen people or the ones He ordered the Israelites to wipe out.

Irrelevant. I never claimed that He did.

Cleansing of sin is by the blood of Jesus.

My response: If you believe that, then why insist that conscious torture is designed to be rehabilitative?

The Bible reveals that God brings sufferings for man's good. Do you believe the Bible or not?

Clearly God uses punishment of sinners for their own good (1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20, etc).

My response: God chastises those He loves. Chastisement is designed to change people. Punishment does not.

God loves everyone. The 1 Cor.5:4-5 passage reveals punishment for one who was unsaved so that he would be saved. Likewise 1 Tim.1:19-20. That won't change in the afterlife when the wicked are punished for their own good, just as a good teacher punishes misbehaving students for their own good & a good judge sentences criminals to a punishment for their own good. OTOH, sadistic evil punishers punish for their own sadistic evil pleasures.

Does God or His ways change postmortem? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk? No.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Do you have a better understanding of Koine Greek than the early church father universalist Greek scholars whose native born tongue was Koine Greek? Obviously not.




Your sentence wasn't completed. There is an infinite difference between a being who will torture in fire most of humanity forever & a God, Love Omnipotent, Who will not.



Five seconds or billion years are both next to nothing compared to eternity.



The Bible says God brings sufferings on people for their own good. Don't you believe the Scriptures?



Wrong.



Irrelevant. I never claimed that He did.



The Bible reveals that God brings sufferings for man's good. Do you believe the Bible or not?




God loves everyone. The 1 Cor.5:4-5 passage reveals punishment for one who was unsaved so that he would be saved. Likewise 1 Tim.1:19-20. That won't change in the afterlife when the wicked are punished for their own good, just as a good teacher punishes misbehaving students for their own good & a good judge sentences criminals to a punishment for their own good. OTOH, sadistic evil punishers punish for their own sadistic evil pleasures.

Does God or His ways change postmortem? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk? No.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

You can believe what you want to believe, just like others who don't believe in the One true God represented in the Scriptures. But, you may find that your intention on calling God sadistic for doing what Jesus Himself said He would do, may not be met with the reaction you hope for when you stand before God. I have tried to help you see that. If you think hiding behind projected intelligence helps you, think about all those who missed the real Jesus or who even went so far to plot against the real Jesus when He was here. It still all boils down to the Holy Spirit revealing the Scriptures. I'm glad He's still in the business of helping small insignificant stupid people like me while confounding the wise. Yay, God!

 

[ClementofA]

It still all boils down to the Holy Spirit revealing the Scriptures. I'm glad He's still in the business of helping small insignificant stupid people like me while confounding the wise.

Christians who believe Scripture teaches universalism can - and have - said much the same thing. Even in the face of a system that supported Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers & their writings during the dark ages of over 1000 years.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Christians who believe Scripture teaches universalism can - and have - said much the same thing. Even in the face of a system that supported Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of opposers & their writings during the dark ages of over 1000 years.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

What you said in your comment to me may be true. But, I don't believe the Scriptures or the Holy Spirit point to universalism. I accept that I could have a wrong understanding, since Scripture is abound with people who misunderstand God--in one way or another--both before and after the Holy Spirit is given. My position doesn't judge God's character if my understanding is wrong. I'm not going to accuse Him, if He chooses to save everybody. And, not that He will have to justify that decision to me or anyone else; but, now we still see dimly, but then we will see as face-to-face. It is His creation and His choice to do what He chooses with His creation. Scripture says that as well. To ever say what God does or doesn't do would make Him this or that is a very dangerous manipulative argument. Because if you are wrong, it may very well put you in a place that you don't believe exists for a period longer than you believe anyone will be there. Job was never in trouble for cursing his own birthday. Job got in trouble when he judged God--and His was a much softer judgement than you have said of God--if in fact He has and uses a real place called hell for a really long time or just plain outside of our concept of time as we know it.

 

[ClementofA]

I accept that I could have a wrong understanding,

God wills that humanity know the truth:

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Tim.2:4).

When one - knows - the truth, there is no "i might be wrong".

God exists. I know it.
Jesus is God & died for the sins of the world. I know it.
Jesus raised Himself from the dead. I know it.
Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know it.
Jesus is the Saviour of the world. I know it.
Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

God wills that humanity know the truth:

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Tim.2:4).

When one - knows - the truth, there is no "i might be wrong".

God exists. I know it.
Jesus is God & died for the sins of the world. I know it.
Jesus raised Himself from the dead. I know it.
Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know it.
Jesus is the Saviour of the world. I know it.
Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

My Response: You said "when one knows the Truth, there is no "I might be wrong." And, yet, Paul said: "For now, we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face-to-face: Now, I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:10,12)

I don't know God fully, yet. I don't believe anyone does or can in this lifetime. Those who God blessed to write Scripture didn't know Him fully--Paul himself says that in the passage above. Nor do I believe what is written in Scripture is everything about God that there is to know. It is sufficient, but not full revelation.

 

[FireDragon76]

"Forever" is the most common dynamic equivalence translation of the expression "ages of ages". Implying it cannot be understood as "forever" seems highly problematic in light of that.

 

[FineLinen]

What you said in your comment to me may be true. But, I don't believe the Scriptures or the Holy Spirit point to universalism. I accept that I could have a wrong understanding, since Scripture is abound with people who misunderstand God--in one way or another--both before and after the Holy Spirit is given. My position doesn't judge God's character if my understanding is wrong. I'm not going to accuse Him, if He chooses to save everybody. And, not that He will have to justify that decision to me or anyone else; but, now we still see dimly, but then we will see as face-to-face. It is His creation and His choice to do what He chooses with His creation. Scripture says that as well. To ever say what God does or doesn't do would make Him this or that is a very dangerous manipulative argument. Because if you are wrong, it may very well put you in a place that you don't believe exists for a period longer than you believe anyone will be there. Job was never in trouble for cursing his own birthday. Job got in trouble when he judged God--and His was a much softer judgement than you have said of God--if in fact He has and uses a real place called hell for a really long time or just plain outside of our concept of time as we know it.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't believe the Scriptures or the Holy Spirit point to universalism. I accept that I could have a wrong understanding, since Scripture is abound with people who misunderstand God--in one way or another--both before and after the Holy Spirit is given. My position doesn't judge God's character if my understanding is wrong. I'm not going to accuse Him, if He chooses to save everybody. And, not that He will have to justify that decision to me or anyone else; but, now we still see dimly, but then we will see as face-to-face. It is His creation and His choice to do what He chooses with His creation. Scripture says that as well.

Dear Johnny4Christ Jesus: I do appreciate the spirit in which you post on this thread. I am old with a number of toes already on the other side of this vale of tears. Every one of us see in shadows with lovely moments when the Spirit of the Lord expands our grasp of Him. The tense is in the present continuous of "be being". The wonder of our Father is in the realm of zillions of digits flowing from Him as the Author of PI. Such a union with Abba is always moving us in an upward expansion of coming to know Him. I personally have given up the thought of ever coming to the last digit relating to Him. That is what makes this wonderful Dance so full.

With that expressed, I cannot escape what stares me in the face!

"It is through the Son, at the cost of his own blood, that we are redeemed, freely forgiven through that full and generous grace which has overflowed into our lives and opened our eyes to the truth. For God had allowed us to know the secret of his plan, and it is this: he purposes in his sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in Heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfilment in him.

And here is the staggering thing—that in all which will one day belong to him we have been promised a share (since we were long ago destined for this by the one who achieves his purposes by his sovereign will), so that we, as the first to put our confidence in Christ, may bring praise to his glory!"

Questions:

1. What is the "sovereign will" of the Eternal One?

2. Where does human history "consummate"?

3. What is the "secret of His Plan?

4. Does His "sovereign will" as "staggering" as it is come to fulfillment?

5. What part of "everything" evades our grasp?

 

[ClementofA]

My Response: You said "when one knows the Truth, there is no "I might be wrong." And, yet, Paul said: "For now, we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face-to-face: Now, I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:10,12)

I don't know God fully, yet. I don't believe anyone does or can in this lifetime. Those who God blessed to write Scripture didn't know Him fully--Paul himself says that in the passage above. Nor do I believe what is written in Scripture is everything about God that there is to know. It is sufficient, but not full revelation.

Yet Paul never said about anything he knew to be truth that "I might be wrong".
Likewise, regarding the truths i list below, i know they are facts & there is no "I might be wrong".

God wills that humanity know the truth:

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Tim.2:4).

When one - knows - the truth, there is no "i might be wrong".

God exists. I know it.
Jesus is God & died for the sins of the world. I know it.
Jesus raised Himself from the dead. I know it.
Jesus is the only way to salvation. I know it.
Jesus is the Saviour of the world. I know it.
Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[FineLinen]

What you said in your comment to me may be true. But, I don't believe the Scriptures or the Holy Spirit point to universalism.

Johnny: If you would like to pursue the restitution of all things on other thread please stop by and we will speak together regarding the Father Abba's "cherished" purpose in the Son of His love, our Master the Christ of glory.

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers. Command this and teach this."

Especially= malista

Only= monon/ monos

Note

1. God is the Saviour of all mankind.

2. He is not a potential Saviour.

3. He is [the] Saviour of all mankind.

4. He is not the Saviour of only those who believe/ trust in Him.

5. He is the Saviour "especially" of those who trust in Him.

6. Command this & teach this.

 

[ClementofA]

"Forever" is the most common dynamic equivalence translation of the expression "ages of ages". Implying it cannot be understood as "forever" seems highly problematic in light of that.

It's "most common" for human beings to be sinners. Does that make it right?

It was common during the dark ages of Inquisitions, Crusades & the endless hell myth to burn heretics alive. Did that make it right?

If hopeful universalism is the "most common" belief regards final destiny among Christians today, does that make it the right theological position?

If universalism was the "most common" view in the church around 300 AD, does that make it the right view?

The expression "ages of the ages" is not most commonly rendered as "forever" but as "ever and ever". This is commonly referred to as an idiomatic expression, but it looks more idiotic than idiomatic. If something is forever you cannot add "and ever" to it.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html