Age of Universe

[gluadys]

I wonder if people expect God to teach in the style of the teachers they had at school.

Perhaps. And perhaps we feel, as adults, that we are above listening to stories. Perhaps we need to be reminded that the Kingodm of heaven is for those who become as little children.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Well...the Bible is G-d's word...it's how He speaks to our generation...so...

...what?

The bible is God's word... it's how He spoke to His chosen people thousands of years ago. The means of communicating that message have remained the same, but the audience is quite different... so...

 

[The Lady Kate]

So science decides which is allegorical and which is historically true...

No, reason does that. Science is a tool to help us reason.

heh and here I though Y'shua was the only Truth..

The literal or the allegorical Truth?

 

[Gwenyfur]

No, reason does that. Science is a tool to help us reason.



The literal or the allegorical Truth?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Whoops! You forgot to write something!

 

[Gwenyfur]

Whoops! You forgot to write something!

I assumed you were smart enough to realize the rolling eyes said it all

 

[The Lady Kate]

I assumed you were smart enough to realize the rolling eyes said it all

Netiquette says that smileys are supposed to add emphasis on a message.... traditionally, they need a message to emphasize.

So help me out here... use words this time.

 

[Dannager]

I assumed you were smart enough to realize the rolling eyes said it all

Less insults, more content.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Less insults, more content.

Oh so the insult road is a one way street...TE toward YEC...

Thanks for the tip

 

[Dannager]

Oh so the insult road is a one way street...TE toward YEC...

Thanks for the tip

Less bickering, more content.

 

[Gwenyfur]

And here I thought that wisdom and knowledge came from the Creator...G-d... Or so the proverb says:
Job 15:8
Have you heard the counsel of God?Do you limit wisdom to yourself?
Job 28:28
And to man He said,‘ Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding.’”
Proverbs 17:24
Wisdom is in the sight of him who has understanding, But the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.

 

[Dannager]

And here I thought that wisdom and knowledge came from the Creator...G-d... Or so the proverb says:
Job 15:8
Have you heard the counsel of God?Do you limit wisdom to yourself?
Job 28:28
And to man He said,‘ Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding.’”
Proverbs 17:24
Wisdom is in the sight of him who has understanding, But the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.

God gave us the wisdom and intellect to make observations about the world that God made.

 

[Gwenyfur]

God gave us the wisdom and intellect to make observations about the world that God made.

How then do you explain Job...
Job 28
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “ Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?[b]
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait? 41 Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

 

[Dannager]

How then do you explain Job...
Job 28
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “ Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?[b]
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait? 41 Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

Wait, are you claiming that we're unfit to observe the world around us?

 

[Gwenyfur]

Wait, are you claiming that we're unfit to observe the world around us?

Not at all, sheesh. Those are the words of the L-RD. How foolish we must seem to Him arguing over *how* He created His universe...when He's already told us

 

[Dannager]

Not at all, sheesh. Those are the words of the L-RD. How foolish we must seem to Him arguing over *how* He created His universe...when He's already told us

He told us that he created the universe, but the "how" that the Bible uses is obviously not intended as literal truth. I don't think God views this as foolish at all.

 

[Gwenyfur]

He told us that he created the universe, but the "how" that the Bible uses is obviously not intended as literal truth. I don't think God views this as foolish at all.

And thus lies the crux of the problem of evolution.

Does the Bible lie? If the story is allegorical than perhaps it does..but I don't think so

 

[The Lady Kate]

And thus lies the crux of the problem of evolution.

Does the Bible lie? If the story is allegorical than perhaps it does..but I don't think so

You think an allegory is a lie? Can we give God, or at least the authors of the Bible... just a little credit for creativity?

 

[Willtor]

And thus lies the crux of the problem of evolution.

Does the Bible lie? If the story is allegorical than perhaps it does..but I don't think so

I think I see the difference between us, then. Most of us don't treat allegories as lies. I've read a number of books in which the authors explicitly stated that their works were allegories. I didn't infer from their comments that they were telling me that their books were lies. Actually, I inferred that they were trying to communicate the truth to me, as they saw it. That is, what they were saying was intended to communicate a certain reality. Perhaps the reality itself was frought with too many details, or the story would be easier to remember and understand.

At any rate, most of us don't treat allegories as deceptions, out of hand. It really has to do more with what is intended by the allegory (and, consequently, by the author).

 

[gluadys]

And here I thought that wisdom and knowledge came from the Creator...G-d...

It does. But not all of God's wisdom and knowledge is found in the bible. God is not limited to speaking through a book.