Age of miracles is over scripture refs?

[1simus]

I recently read a thread here in which that idea was presented. Miracles happened in the first century and don't happen now. I've also heard the idea passed around at my church before. Can you elaborate on the thought with scripture references? I'm just trying to understand the point of view. My personal view is that miracles still happen.

I think I remember 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 being mentioned about it. 1 Corinthians 13 I get, its verse 8. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation but I see how someone can come to that conclusion. Ephesians 4 I don't see anything so I might be remembering wrong. Any other places this subject is talked about?

Thanks

 

[- DRA -]

I recently read a thread here in which that idea was presented. Miracles happened in the first century and don't happen now. I've also heard the idea passed around at my church before. Can you elaborate on the thought with scripture references? I'm just trying to understand the point of view. My personal view is that miracles still happen.

I think I remember 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 being mentioned about it. 1 Corinthians 13 I get, its verse 8. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation but I see how someone can come to that conclusion. Ephesians 4 I don't see anything so I might be remembering wrong. Any other places this subject is talked about?

Thanks

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is the text I use, coupled with the principle taught in 1 Cor. 4:19. In short, in the latter passage there were those in the first-century who opposed the teaching/work of the Holy Spirit done through the apostles. It had happened in Corinth in Paul's absence, and upon His return it would be interesting to see if they had any real power to support their teaching. Obviously, they didn't. Paul, under direct guidance of the Spirit, knew they didn't. I personally believe the same principle is applicable today. Folks say they can do the miracles, but can they really? Can they speak in languages they have not learned as the apostles did in Acts 2? Can they heal a man who was over 40 and never walked as the apostles did in Acts 3? See the point? There's no real need for words ... just action.

 

[Lpe04]

I recently read a thread here in which that idea was presented. Miracles happened in the first century and don't happen now. I've also heard the idea passed around at my church before. Can you elaborate on the thought with scripture references? I'm just trying to understand the point of view. My personal view is that miracles still happen.

I think I remember 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 being mentioned about it. 1 Corinthians 13 I get, its verse 8. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation but I see how someone can come to that conclusion. Ephesians 4 I don't see anything so I might be remembering wrong. Any other places this subject is talked about?

Thanks

Miracles still happen. I have seen them and performed them. God never changes.

God bless!

 

[- DRA -]

Miracles still happen. I have seen them and performed them. God never changes.

God bless!

Really? What kind of miracles?

 

[SilentRunner]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is the text I use, coupled with the principle taught in 1 Cor. 4:19. In short, in the latter passage there were those in the first-century who opposed the teaching/work of the Holy Spirit done through the apostles. It had happened in Corinth in Paul's absence, and upon His return it would be interesting to see if they had any real power to support their teaching. Obviously, they didn't. Paul, under direct guidance of the Spirit, knew they didn't. I personally believe the same principle is applicable today. Folks say they can do the miracles, but can they really? Can they speak in languages they have not learned as the apostles did in Acts 2? Can they heal a man who was over 40 and never walked as the apostles did in Acts 3? See the point? There's no real need for words ... just action.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

"when perfection comes". Has perfection arrived already? I can read this to mean that miracles will cease when Christ Jesus (perfection) returns.

Also, if, as you contend, that miracles no longer happen, does that mean that knowledge has passed away? (The verse says, in effect, that knowledge will cease when prophecies cease.)

Given that, I sincerely believe that there are no (or at least very few) miracles performed by mankind today. The New Testament tells us we need the faith of a mustard seed (at least) to move mountains. I contend that none of us has faith that even approaches that of a mustard seed.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is the text I use, coupled with the principle taught in 1 Cor. 4:19. In short, in the latter passage there were those in the first-century who opposed the teaching/work of the Holy Spirit done through the apostles. It had happened in Corinth in Paul's absence, and upon His return it would be interesting to see if they had any real power to support their teaching. Obviously, they didn't. Paul, under direct guidance of the Spirit, knew they didn't. I personally believe the same principle is applicable today. Folks say they can do the miracles, but can they really? Can they speak in languages they have not learned as the apostles did in Acts 2? Can they heal a man who was over 40 and never walked as the apostles did in Acts 3? See the point? There's no real need for words ... just action.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
"when perfection comes". Has perfection arrived already

"when perfection comes". Has perfection arrived already? I can read this to mean that miracles will cease when Christ Jesus (perfection) returns.

Yes, the "perfect law of liberty" arrived per James 1:25. Note the context. It refers back to " the implanted word, which is able to save your souls" in verse 21. Once God's message to mankind under the gospel of His Son was complete, the need for spiritual gifts ceased. And, after the last apostle died, so did the ability the apostles had to lay hands on someone and give the ability to perform miracles (e.g., Acts 19:6). Therefore, spiritual gifts ended at that time.

Also, if, as you contend, that miracles no longer happen, does that mean that knowledge has passed away? (The verse says, in effect, that knowledge will cease when prophecies cease.)

Verse 2 in the same chapter (1 Cor. 13) is a pretty good commentary on "knowledge." It involves understanding the mysteries of God's revelations revealed through the prophets.

If, as you suggest, prophecies continued and are on-going today, then the faith wasn't once delivered (Jude 3), but has been on-going since the first century.

And, as for knowledge ceasing, apparently at some point the knowledge discussed in 1 Cor. 13 was to cease. Per your understanding of what is meant by knowledge in that chapter, it still ended upon the Lord's return (per your understanding). Based on your understanding, would that mean that "all" knowledge ended then, or maybe that a specific type ended?

Given that, I sincerely believe that there are no (or at least very few) miracles performed by mankind today. The New Testament tells us we need the faith of a mustard seed (at least) to move mountains. I contend that none of us has faith that even approaches that of a mustard seed.

What we have to decide is whether or not those mountains to be moved are literal or figurative. Faith starts out small, but can grow so large. However, no matter how large it grows, it can't grow big enough to do miracles if it isn't God's will they be done today. I sincerely believe miracles served their purpose in the first century ... they confirmed both the messenger and the message (Hebrews 2:3-4).

 

[Molal]

I'm with DRA.

First we need to understand what a miracle is, here Acts 4:16 helps us to understand. A miracle is that which transcends natural law - a supernatural event.

Given this understanding, it is my understanding that 1Cor. 13:8-10 indicates that miracles would cease after the apostles had died and those persons to whom the apostles had provided certain "powers" had died (Ac. 6:6).

So, it all depends on your definition of miracle.

 

[SilentRunner]

Am I wrong when I consider that instructions given by Jesus to his disciples are also instructions to me?

For example, if he told them to give to the poor, shouldn't I give to the poor also?

Or should I consider those instructions to be strictly for the disciples and not for me?

(Warning: I'm leading up to something with those questions.)

 

[- DRA -]

Am I wrong when I consider that instructions given by Jesus to his disciples are also instructions to me?

For example, if he told them to give to the poor, shouldn't I give to the poor also?

Or should I consider those instructions to be strictly for the disciples and not for me?

(Warning: I'm leading up to something with those questions.)

It depends ...

Luke 24:49. "Tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high (NKJV)." The promise was to the apostles. They obeyed by waiting in Jerusalem for the Lord to send the Holy Spirit. He did in Acts 2:1-4. However, would He do the same for us today? Or, did this command with its related promise apply specifically to the apostles? If the latter, then it doesn't apply to us today ... so we don't have to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Lord to send the Holy Spirit to us.

If someone tried to apply this passage today, I would beg to differ with them.

I think we should obey all the Lord's commandments that are applicable today under the gospel of Christ (Luke 17:10).

 

[SilentRunner]

It depends ...

Luke 24:49. "Tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high (NKJV)." The promise was to the apostles. They obeyed by waiting in Jerusalem for the Lord to send the Holy Spirit. He did in Acts 2:1-4. However, would He do the same for us today? Or, did this command with its related promise apply specifically to the apostles? If the latter, then it doesn't apply to us today ... so we don't have to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Lord to send the Holy Spirit to us.

If someone tried to apply this passage today, I would beg to differ with them.

I think we should obey all the Lord's commandments that are applicable today under the gospel of Christ (Luke 17:10).

I agree that in a lot of scripture it is obvious that what the Lord is telling the disciples is just for them and not us.

But what about Matthew 17:18-20:

Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn’t we drive it out?"
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."​

Is that intended for only the disciples or am I included?

I put it to the test when I was a sophomore in high school and for three months everything was good. Nothing happened that I didn't like. Everything went my way. But my faith then, as now, did not even approach the size of a mustard seed. And it didn't last beyond those three months.

So, if Christ Jesus was telling us that all we needed was a little faith, why can't miracles continue?

 

[Lpe04]

Really? What kind of miracles?

Healings mostly

God bless!
Lance

 

[- DRA -]

I agree that in a lot of scripture it is obvious that what the Lord is telling the disciples is just for them and not us.

But what about Matthew 17:18-20:

Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn’t we drive it out?"
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Is that intended for only the disciples or am I included?

This work was limited to the 12 apostles.

Matthew 10:1-5a says,

1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying:

Mark's account adds some follow-up information (from Mark 6):

7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. ... 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

Matthew 17: 18-20 falls within the scope of this limited commission (as it is commonly called versus the great commission of Mark 16:15 & Matt. 28:19).

I put it to the test when I was a sophomore in high school and for three months everything was good. Nothing happened that I didn't like. Everything went my way. But my faith then, as now, did not even approach the size of a mustard seed. And it didn't last beyond those three months.

So, if Christ Jesus was telling us that all we needed was a little faith, why can't miracles continue?

The apostles were given limited powers to cast out demons as they went into cities/villages to prepare the Jews to receive the coming Lord.

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -

Really? What kind of miracles?

Healings mostly

God bless!
Lance

What kind of healings? In Acts 3, the apostles Peter and John through the power of the Holy Spirit healed a lame man over the age of 40 who had never walked. Spoke the word - "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk," and it happened - "And he [Peter] took him [the lame man] by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength." Do you heal in this manner? Yes or no, I would sincerely like to know more about the healings you can do.

Your reply - "healings mostly" - infers you also do other types of miracles. Can you elaborate more?

 

[jsou10]

Wow, this kind of topic is amazing to me...I'm surprised this kind of conversation actually exists...It shouldn't have to. I guess it's because I have been touched by the power of God in that way. I can introduce you to a woman who was on her death bed with Aids...My wife (she did this when she was a child, years ago) laid hands on her and prayed in the name of Jesus and commanded Aids to die...it did, and God raised that woman up and now she has no trace of aids anywhere in her body. She is alive and she is a minister preaching the good news of Jesus Christ. Praise God!

Miracles are happening everywhere (and I'm not talking about the miracle of being alive...that's ridiculous)...Jesus is healing people of cancer, tumors, deafness, blindness, aids, everythign...Jesus is alive, and He is here...His glory is invading this earth!

 

[Molal]

Wow, this kind of topic is amazing to me...I'm surprised this kind of conversation actually exists...It shouldn't have to. I guess it's because I have been touched by the power of God in that way. I can introduce you to a woman who was on her death bed with Aids...My wife (she did this when she was a child, years ago) laid hands on her and prayed in the name of Jesus and commanded Aids to die...it did, and God raised that woman up and now she has no trace of aids anywhere in her body. She is alive and she is a minister preaching the good news of Jesus Christ. Praise God!

Miracles are happening everywhere (and I'm not talking about the miracle of being alive...that's ridiculous)...Jesus is healing people of cancer, tumors, deafness, blindness, aids, everythign...Jesus is alive, and He is here...His glory is invading this earth!

Only medical records could provide the data to validate your assertion.

And on the same note, she maybe cured from AIDS, but is she still HIV positive?

 

[1simus]

I appreciate all of the responses!

The original question was asking for references in support of the point of view that miracles don't happen anymore. I think I understand that viewpoint better now so thank you!

Only medical records could provide the data to validate your assertion.

That is the kicker isn't it? People ask for irrefutable proof but even medical records can be tampered with and the doctors can be in on it so even that isn't irrefutable proof.

 

[Molal]

I appreciate all of the responses!

The original question was asking for references in support of the point of view that miracles don't happen anymore. I think I understand that viewpoint better now so thank you!



That is the kicker isn't it? People ask for irrefutable proof but even medical records can be tampered with and the doctors can be in on it so even that isn't irrefutable proof.

But it's not the kicker, noone asked for irrefutable proof. Irrefutable proof does not exist. All I would like are the medical records - these should provide evidence to backup the assertion of a miracle.

 

[- DRA -]

Wow, this kind of topic is amazing to me...I'm surprised this kind of conversation actually exists...It shouldn't have to. I guess it's because I have been touched by the power of God in that way. I can introduce you to a woman who was on her death bed with Aids...My wife (she did this when she was a child, years ago) laid hands on her and prayed in the name of Jesus and commanded Aids to die...it did, and God raised that woman up and now she has no trace of aids anywhere in her body. She is alive and she is a minister preaching the good news of Jesus Christ. Praise God!

Miracles are happening everywhere (and I'm not talking about the miracle of being alive...that's ridiculous)...Jesus is healing people of cancer, tumors, deafness, blindness, aids, everythign...Jesus is alive, and He is here...His glory is invading this earth!

Okay, let me try to understand this ... A child laid hands on a woman on her deathbed and healed the woman of AIDS. I think that's what I'm hearing. And, now the woman is AIDS free and a minister of Christ. Of course, the girl has grown up and is now married. Yes, I think that's how the story goes.

Okay, I've heard of these kind of things before. However, I have to ask for something stronger (i.e., more concrete) than just your word. You see, I have been to tent meetings before where people were healed of headaches and loose-fitting dentures (I'm serious - it really happened!). Obviously, those kind of "miracles" pale in comparison to the types we read about in the New Testament. As I posted earlier, take Acts 3. A lame man over 40 who had never walked. The Jews knew him, and knew the circumstances of his health. The apostles Peter and John met this man while he was begging. They had no money to give him, but gave him what money couldn't buy. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the man was healed. Filled with joy and the new-found strength in his legs, the man jumped up and down repeatedly while praising God! Imagine what a sight that would have been to witness.

Would it be possible to obtain the medical records to verify this "miracle" you describe? I mean, there needs to be something other than your word. Please understand my doubt. Folks occasionally make such claims as you described. Case in point ... an extended family member's father was bitten on the big toe by a brown recluse spider. The toe had to be amputated. Doctors were considering amputating another toe. However, some of his charismatic friends came and prayed over the second toe. They claimed a "miracle" because the toe was spared. However, I have to wonder where they were before the big toe had to be amputated, because if that had been me and I believed in the kind of power they say say they have, I would have called them first instead of going to the emergency room. And, I saw the man's foot after the second toe was "saved." The necrosis from the spider bite was still very evident and extensive. Why wasn't it healed? If you've never seen something like that, it isn't for the squeamish. The tissue destruction is ugly. Why wasn't it healed? It will have to be dealt with later (as in removing the dead tissue, skin grafts, etc). I wonder if these folks will come back later and "heal" the wound so no follow-up medical procedures will be required.

I have no doubt that many miraculous things happen today. People escape injury or serious injury in car wrecks, plane crashes, etc., when you would fully expect for them to be killed. And, cancers and diseases sometimes go into remission and possibly even revert back to good health. This occasionally happens to the unbeliever as well as the believer. However, I'm not convinced N.T. miracles happened in this manner. Rather, they were performed in the name of the Lord (i.e., by His authority). And, as a general rule, it was evident a miracle was done when it happened. No persuasive words were needed. The miracle was powerful. No denying the miracle. Take Matthew 12. The Jews couldn't deny Jesus' miracles, so they tried to discredit Him by saying He did them by the power of Beelzebub (see verse 22-24). I think there's an obvious difference in the modern-day "miracles" and those in the first century.

To be blunt and right to the point, there is an obvious way to settle the matter of whether or not one has the power to perform miracles. Appealing once again to 1 Cor. 4:19, there is talk, and there is power. Imagine the apostles going around telling everybody they really had the power to perform miracles in the name of the Lord, but all they ever did was talk about it. On the other hand, imagine the apostles, and those they had laids hands upon, doing the miracles and the people being so astonished they couldn't help but talk about what they had seen and heard. The latter scenario is the one we read about in the New Testament, and the one we would expect if miracles truly occur today.

 

[jsou10]

Check out this video... www dot sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=6657 ...This is an amazing woman of God! When she was 28 (I believe 28), a door fell on her and crippled her. She was in wheelchair when God healed her and set her free. She is a minister of the gospel today. Just check out the video.

Also, the Word of God is enough to settle the issues of miracles. Look at John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

If the day of doing the works that Jesus did is over, then the day of believing on Him is over.

Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."


Can we believe the Word of God?

 

[- DRA -]

Check out this video... www dot sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=tv_&page=NewsArticle&id=6657 ...This is an amazing woman of God! When she was 28 (I believe 28), a door fell on her and crippled her. She was in wheelchair when God healed her and set her free. She is a minister of the gospel today. Just check out the video.

Also, the Word of God is enough to settle the issues of miracles. Look at John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

If the day of doing the works that Jesus did is over, then the day of believing on Him is over.

Mark 16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."


Can we believe the Word of God?

Sorry, but the website address doesn't work. I even tried putting a period in the appropriate place after www and correcting for the spaces in the address.

As for John 14:12, the context begins back in 13:1. Jesus is preparing to observe the Passover with His apostles. It's the night before His crucifixition. In 14:16, He promises to send a Helper (NKJV) - the Spirit of truth (in verse 17). Therefore, we have to decide if the promise applies to us today. Note Hebrews 2 ...
"3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?" The point? The gospel message was begun by the Lord, but completed and confirmed by the apostles - the evidence was the works the Holy Spirit did through them. Now, like I explained earlier, words are one thing, but actual power quite another. To illustrate the principle, check out Matthew 9:2 (and the story that follows), when Jesus forgave sins, which is spiritual in nature. Then, He goes on to heal the man of His physical affliction. He did it to "show" His power on earth. It reinforced the words He spoke. In short, His miracle proved He also had the power to forgive sins. The same was true of the apostles and first-century Christians. The miracles confirmed that God approved of the message they preached.

As for Mark 16:17-18, note the context. Jesus was commanding the eleven apostles (see verse 14), for Judas has already died. They were commanded to take the gospel to the world. The signs mentioned would accompany them. Note Acts 28:3-4. Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake. However, he suffered no harm from it. It confirmed that God was with Paul and approved of the things he taught.

Yes, I believe the word of God. I believe Jesus worked miracles. And, I believe the apostles worked miracles. And, I also believe that those whom the apostles laid hands upon worked miracles. However, I also believe the miracles ceased when the gospel message was completed. The "perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25) was completed and was confirmed. Additional confirmations were not necessary. Faith comes by hearing the word of God per Romans 10:17. God's word completely equips us for all we need to serve God and please Him per 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Therefore, what further need is there of miracles today?