Age of miracles is over scripture refs?

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by - DRA -
Therefore, we can ensure we have the truth about what it means to "believe" in the Lord by harmonizing our understanding of John 3:16 (as presented in its context) with the conversions. Make sense?

Bottom line. Don't take my word for it. I humbly suggest sitting at the Master's feet for awhile with Matthew 4:5-7 and Matthew 22:23-33. To me, it sets the foundation for seeing things God's way.



DRA and John 3.16

To: DRA
Every preacher that I have heard teach on John 3.16 has lied about it, for they left out the qualifyig verse:

"He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (Iesous Anointed) - Jn 3.18.

This is one of the many verses identifying Israel as the "Original Antichrist."

But then, that is Old Testament! Why do you never quote the New Testament?

When was the 42 Months?

I ask many people in this wicked generation, "Do you have any questions about the Bible?"

One and all reply "No."

As for the context of John 3:16, I was thinking more of the preceding verses: particularly, verse 14. The serpent lifted up in the wilderness is presented as a simile (a comparison, or type) of Jesus being lifted up on the cross. The story of the brass serpent is found in Numbers 21. When one of the Israelites was bitten by a serpent, he/she was instructed to "look" at the brass serpent Moses set on a pole. The point is they had to do something. Therefore, since this example is comparable to the salvation offered through Jesus, the implication is that belief in Jesus implies we do what is commanded to obtain the blessings promised (e.g., Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16).

Now, if not too much trouble, please explain the link between John 3:18 and Israel being "the Original Antichrist." Without the connection, you leave us thinking you aren't just out there in left field (so to speak, using athletic terminology), but maybe you aren't even close to the ballpark.

The 42 months? How did that tie into the discussion of John 3:16?

Perhaps there is a reason no one gives you a positive response. Perhaps if you stop trying to connect the apocalyptic writings to every single discussion and focus on the discussion at hand, you'd make it easier for folks to converse with you. Just a thought. No harm meant, but I definitely think you could do a much better job of staying on-topic and connecting your thoughts.

 

[wmssid]

1) The Gift of the Holy Spirit is long dead and gone.

2) Jesus introduced the 7 [supernatural] Spirits of God; Rev 5.12, 7.12.

3) "Saving a soul" is a miracle of God.

If miracles are gone, then you are "dead in your sins" and there will be no "final resurrection"; Rev 20.11-15; Rev 21.7-8.

 

[- DRA -]

1) The Gift of the Holy Spirit is long dead and gone.

Really? Acts 10 says (NKJV),
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

As I understand this text, the "Holy Spirit" in verse 44 is synonymous with the "gift of the Holy Spirit" in verse 45. The Holy Spirit was the gift promised by God per Acts 2:17-18. Although He no longer works the signs, miracles, and wonders like those done in the first century (Hebrews 2:3-4), He is still very much at work today just as Jesus promised per John 16 ... "convict[ing] the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" in 8, and "glorify[ing] Me [Jesus] in verse 14. Therefore, if those things are still happening today, I say the Spirit is still doing His work.

2) Jesus introduced the 7 [supernatural] Spirits of God; Rev 5.12, 7.12.

Hmmm. In both Rev. 5:12 and 7:12 the angels are speaking. Not Jesus. By the way, did I read your post correctly? You referred to "Iesous" as "Jesus," right? Hmmm. This is interesting. Perhaps you are not quite as DOGMATIC as you have led us to believe. Care to explain?

3) "Saving a soul" is a miracle of God.

Not to downplay the significance of salvation by the blood of Christ in any way, I have not associated salvation with a miracle of God. Rather, "miracles" appear in Hebrews 4:4 and is used to confirm both the messengers [the apostles] and the message [the gospel of Christ] as the apostles went about completing the gospel message under the Spirit's guidance (see John 16:13a - "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth."

If miracles are gone, then you are "dead in your sins" and there will be no "final resurrection"; Rev 20.11-15; Rev 21.7-8.

Miracles, as in spiritual gifts, ended per 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. They ended after God's revelation to manking was complete - "the perfect law of liberty" per James 1:25. Salvation didn't end, just the miraculous work of the Spirit. Rest assured. There will be a final resurrection when God's people go home per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

I am a witness of a miracle.

I was in the hospital with my fiance when my he took his last breath. They tried reviving him, to no avail. They confirmed he was dead. They unhooked all the machines that were attached to him and were waiting for me to go. But something held me back. I was too stunned and grief-stricken to move anyway.
Two hours later he started breathing again.

Nobody around performed that miracle. I certainly didn't. God brought him back Himself.

(and by the way both my fiance and I grew up in the Church of Christ, and outside of me and his family, nobody within the church of Christ congregations we grew up with believes this actually occurred to him. No wonder he and I have left it.)

 

[- DRA -]

I am a witness of a miracle.

I was in the hospital with my fiance when my he took his last breath. They tried reviving him, to no avail. They confirmed he was dead. They unhooked all the machines that were attached to him and were waiting for me to go. But something held me back. I was too stunned and grief-stricken to move anyway.
Two hours later he started breathing again.

Nobody around performed that miracle. I certainly didn't. God brought him back Himself.

(and by the way both my fiance and I grew up in the Church of Christ, and outside of me and his family, nobody within the church of Christ congregations we grew up with believes this actually occurred to him. No wonder he and I have left it.)

Let us contrast this incident with a miracle performed by an apostle of the Lord ...

Acts 3:1-8 (ESV):
1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple that is called the Beautiful Gate to ask alms of those entering the temple.
3 Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, he asked to receive alms.
4 And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said, Look at us.
5 And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them.
6 But Peter said, I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!
7 And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong.
8 And leaping up he stood and began to walk, and entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God.

When we talk about miracles and spiritual gifts no longer being performed today, it is this type of example we have in mind.

Do you see a difference?

No doubt, miraculous things happen today in a different way. For example, people who have drowned in cold water have been revived after extended periods of cardiac and respiratory arrest with no (or minimal) adverse health effects. And, people exit car wrecks and plane crashes with barely a scratch when fatalities typically result from such accidents. However, these are not miracles as Jesus and His apostles performed.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Okay so you're basically saying that God has to work through PEOPLE to perform miracles. I saw this with my own eyes. I saw he was dead, the doctors and nurses confirmed he was dead. Nothing THEY did brought him back to life. He lay dead and cooling on the hospital bed for TWO HOURS before he came back to life.

I don't know why God chose my fiance, but He did, and chose to work a true miracle, without any human help, in my fiance's life. This isn't some medical mystery. The only mystery is to the people who don't understand that God doesn't always work through His creation.

 

[- DRA -]

Okay so you're basically saying that God has to work through PEOPLE to perform miracles. I saw this with my own eyes. I saw he was dead, the doctors and nurses confirmed he was dead. Nothing THEY did brought him back to life. He lay dead and cooling on the hospital bed for TWO HOURS before he came back to life.

I don't know why God chose my fiance, but He did, and chose to work a true miracle, without any human help, in my fiance's life. This isn't some medical mystery. The only mystery is to the people who don't understand that God doesn't always work through His creation.

I'm saying if you read the example of the type of miracle associated with confirming Jesus as Lord, His message, and His apostles and what they taught, you will see there is indeed a difference in what you are describing versus the signs, miracles, and wonders as discussed in Hebrews 2:3-4. That's all I'm saying. There is a difference.

I don't have an explanation for what you describe. I wasn't there. I don't know any details about your fiance's condition, nor about the medical evaluation that declared him dead. I'm assuming folks were looking at an EKG.
As a former medic, I have witnessed both clinical death and biological death. Clinical death is cardio-pulmonary arrest. It can be reversed. Biological death, on the other hand, is not reversible. Once this death process starts at the cellular level, death will occur -- assuming, of course, there is no direct intervention from God. No doubt, God has the power to directly intervene. However, the miracles confirmed in God's word were for a totally different purpose. For example, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. And, that was long after biological death would have occurred. In fact, there were concerns that Lazarus' body would have already significantly decayed. But, Jesus raised him from the dead. This type of work was a clear demonstration that God was with Jesus (John 3:2). Lazarus just didn't come back to life. Jesus brought Him back to life. And, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit upon His apostles to empower them in the same way. An example can be found in the latter part of Acts 9 when the apostle Peter raised Dorcas from the dead. As stated before, such events confirmed both the messenger and the message (the teaching of the gospel of Christ) that God was with them.

The example of what you describe falls into a different realm than the "miracles" of the first century. I would like to know more detail about your fiance's medical condition, e.g., if lividity occurred - which would indicate a lack of blood perfusion throughout the body. *Lividity is the condition where the blood pools in the lower parts of the body immediately after death. It is readily apparent by a dark, reddish, bluish, and purple color.*

 

[jmacvols]

I recently read a thread here in which that idea was presented. Miracles happened in the first century and don't happen now. I've also heard the idea passed around at my church before. Can you elaborate on the thought with scripture references? I'm just trying to understand the point of view. My personal view is that miracles still happen.

I think I remember 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 being mentioned about it. 1 Corinthians 13 I get, its verse 8. I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation but I see how someone can come to that conclusion. Ephesians 4 I don't see anything so I might be remembering wrong. Any other places this subject is talked about?

Thanks

1 Cor 13 has already been explained, in Eph 4 Paul is saying the same thing as in 1 Cor 13.


Eph 4:8 - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:8 tells us Christ ascended on high and gave "gifts" unto men. These gifts being miraculous gifts.

What is the purpose of these gifts?

Eph 4:12 - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The purpose is for the "perfecting" of the saints. The word "perfecting" here means completely furnish/equip, the same as it means in 1 Cor 13 KJV.

How long will these gifts of the completely furnishing of the saints last?

Eph 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

Till we all come into the unity of the faith.

The word "till" is a time limiting word, that these gifts will last till a certain time.

The word "unity" carries the idea of wholeness or oneness.

The phrase "the faith" means the system of faith that is taught throughout the entire NT covenant.

So to paraphrase what Paul is saying here is that miraculous gifts that are for completely furnishing/equipping the saints will last till we have a oneness/wholeness of the system of faith of the New Testament.
In short, these miraculous gifts will last till we have a complete NT.

Miracles are like scaffolding. When a building is newly constructed, scaffolding is used to help with the construction. Yet once the building is completed the scaffolding is no longer needed, it is taken away. Miracles were used to bring about the entire word of God. Once it was completed the miracles (scaffolding) are no longer needed and were taken away.