Age of Accountability

[Hammster]

whats ur interpretation in the water and the spirit anyways?
cause it doesnt really show the difference in there

other than in verse 16

I think it reference, in part, to Ezekiel 36.

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

It fits the context of Christ's discourse, and would explain the chastisement of Nic.

 

[Isolation]

I see

In my faith it means the two baptisms of the NT
Johns baptism of Christ
and the Lords baptism of spirit

 

[Hammster]

I see

In my faith it means the two baptisms of the NT
Johns baptism of Christ
and the Lords baptism of spirit

What is your faith?

 

[Isolation]

What is your faith?

um belief in christs baptism, death, ressurection
1 john 5:6

anything added to it voids out salvation

 

[Fencerguy]

No biblical support. Nada.

We are born again by water and the Spirit, not by belief in the water and the Spirit.

so just participating in the water and spirit are all we need to do? We don't need to believe that they are regenerative and have power to affect our lives through Christ?

 

[Hammster]

so just participating in the water and spirit are all we need to do? We don't need to believe that they are regenerative and have power to affect our lives through Christ?

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by participating. You participate just as when you were born the first time. After you are born again you will believe. But believing in being born by the water and Spirit isn't a prerequisite to actually being regenerated.

 

[Fencerguy]

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by participating. You participate just sacking as when you were born the first time. After you are born again you will believe. But believing in being born by the water and Spirit isn't a prerequisite to actually being regenerated.

Ohhhh, so you don't need to believe to be baptized? People are just automatically regenerated and then they either get baptized before or after this regeneration? We have nothing to do with this regeneration?

 

[the particular baptist]

We have nothing to do with this regeneration?

Nada !

 

[Isolation]

Ohhhh, so you don't need to believe to be baptized? People are just automatically regenerated and then they either get baptized before or after this regeneration? We have nothing to do with this regeneration?

When you put it that way...

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Here is my position on that:

Age of Accountability « Osage Bluestem

Further proof from the Bible that your position regarding the age of accountability is incorrect is found in the Gospel According to John where John expressly states what we must do in order to become children of God.

John 1:11. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB, 1995)

Verse 11 tells us that Jesus came to His own. “His own” is often interpreted by the casual reader to be a reference to His own people, the ethnic Jews. However, the word “own” here is neuter in gender as it is in John 19:27 where it apparently means ‘household.’ The meaning here in v. 11 is probably somewhat broader in scope. In the latter part of the verse, we read, “those who were His own did not receive Him,” but here the word “own” is masculine rather than neuter in gender.

In verse 12, we have one of the twenty-seven casus pendens constructions found in John’s gospel. Here, we find an expansion of the indirect object of “gave the right” thrust to the beginning of the verse to make it the focal point of the verse—“as many as received Him.” To as many as receive Christ, is given the right to become children of God, “even to those who believe in His name.” It is critical to the correct interpretation of this verse to observe the fact that in the Greek text, as in our English translations, the verb translated as “receive” is in the active voice. That is, the “many” are the doers of the action rather than the recipients of the action. Many unregenerate men hear the gospel, believe it, receive Christ, and are given the right to become children of God.

In this passage, the Greek verbs translated as “came,” “did not receive,” “received,” and “gave” are all in the aorist indicative, denoting past action at a point in time. They are also in the active voice, indicating that the subject performed the action in reference to someone or something else. The Greek word translated as “believe” in verse 12, however, is a present participle denoting continuous belief in the present time. Therefore, the phrase “to those who believe in His name” is a qualifying phrase, limiting the action of God’s giving not only to those who received Him, but further to those who believe in His name, and not only at a point in time, but continuously. This fact is extremely important to the correct interpretation of this passage.

Verse 13 is problematic because the Greek word translated as “blood” is a plural noun, and ‘bloods’ to the first-century Jewish mind, based upon Old Testament usage, meant ‘bloodshed.’ Johannine scholars have proposed various explanations for the use of the plural noun in this verse, but there is no consensus of opinion. Indeed, the entire verse must be interpreted in the light of first-century Jewish concepts. The “will of the flesh” refers to the natural bodily appetites of man. The phrase, “the will of man” is very commonly misunderstood by the casual reader to be a reference of the will of human beings, but the Greek text does not allow that interpretation because the Greek word used in this verse is not the Greek word for human beings or mankind that John used in verse 6, but the Greek word for a man in contrast to a woman. Among first-century Jews, the Jews to whom John writes his gospel, the husband was understood as being the principle partner in conception, and in verse 13, John is writing that the regenerate man is not born out of that that which is natural, but “of God.” This verse does speak of the will of the husband in conception, but it does NOT speak of the will of mankind, and it does NOT speak of the will of God. The regenerate man is born of God rather than of men, and his regeneration is a consequence of the unregenerate man choosing to receive Christ as a one-time event (aorist tense) and to thereafter believe (present participle) in Christ, not merely intellectually, but as Lord and Savior.

Infants are not capable of receiving Christ or believing in His name, so we ask, “Did Christ give to infants the right to become children of God?” There is no mention anywhere in the New Testament of Christ doing that. Therefore, we conclude that, in the New Testament, there is no age at which children become accountable for the sin of Adam or their own personal sins—they are born sinners and accountable for their sin.

 

[Hammster]

Ohhhh, so you don't need to believe to be baptized? People are just automatically regenerated and then they either get baptized before or after this regeneration? We have nothing to do with this regeneration?

You really should start actually reading what I say. And stop looking for that 'gotcha'. The fact that I've addressed your issues shows that I've at least thought this through. The fact that you keep avoiding the arguments I've made shows that you haven't. Whether or not you end up agreeing with me isn't important. Hopefully you will end up with a more solid view if what you believe and will be able to defend it with Scripture and nit emotional arguments.

 

[Fencerguy]

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by participating. You participate just as when you were born the first time. After you are born again you will believe. But believing in being born by the water and Spirit isn't a prerequisite to actually being regenerated.

so just participating in the water and spirit are all we need to do? We don't need to believe that they are regenerative and have power to affect our lives through Christ?

Ohhhh, so you don't need to believe to be baptized? People are just automatically regenerated and then they either get baptized before or after this regeneration? We have nothing to do with this regeneration?

You really should start actually reading what I say. And stop looking for that 'gotcha'. The fact that I've addressed your issues shows that I've at least thought this through. The fact that you keep avoiding the arguments I've made shows that you haven't. Whether or not you end up agreeing with me isn't important. Hopefully you will end up with a more solid view if what you believe and will be able to defend it with Scripture and nit emotional arguments.

So by asking questions that require you to explain your position........I am avoiding your arguments? Seemed to me like I was trying to understand what you are telling me.............So I will ask you again;

Do we need to believe in order to be baptized? Can we just be baptized any ol' time and assume that we will then be regenerated? Do we have anything to do with said regeneration?

 

[Fencerguy]

Nada !

So does God just randomly decide to regenerate us one day? We have no participation in it whatsoever?

This sovereign regeneration of an individual seems an awful lot like how Catholics describe the sinlessness of Mary....That God sovereignly regenerated her and cleansed her sins (since there was no Christ yet, it had to be a sovereign act of God...) and thus allowed her to be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit (i.e. have an intimate personal experience with God directly) and not be automatically struck down dead as had happened to many other people throughout the Old Testament.....

 

[Hammster]

So by asking questions that require you to explain your position........I am avoiding your arguments? Seemed to me like I was trying to understand what you are telling me.............So I will ask you again;

Do we need to believe in order to be baptized? Can we just be baptized any ol' time and assume that we will then be regenerated? Do we have anything to do with said regeneration?

It's okay to ask questions. I do it all of the time. But when you ask a question in an accusatory fashion which twists what I actually said, that's a different story. And now the question you are asking here isn't even the one you asked earlier. I'm just trying to get you to pay attention to what is actually being said and ask questions based on that.

Now, to answer this question, you must believe in order to be baptized in the way the NT prescribes.

And, no, we have nothing to do with said regeneration. Neither do we have anything to do with our original birth. That's why Jesus used the analogy.

 

[Hammster]

So does God just randomly decide to regenerate us one day? We have no participation in it whatsoever?

God does nothing randomly. Our participation is in the form of response. John 3:16 comes after John 3:3.

 

[98cwitr]

So does God just randomly decide to regenerate us one day? We have no participation in it whatsoever?

The answer is a big fat NO, to say that we participate in our own salvation is to deny the Gospel. It is the in part or wholly reject the sovereignty of God. See John 6:37-44 + Romans 9:14-16

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The answer is a big fat NO, to say that we participate in our own salvation is to deny the Gospel. It is the in part or wholly reject the sovereignty of God. See John 6:37-44 + Romans 9:14-16

John 6:37. “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40. “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
41. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
42. They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43. Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves.
44. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

What occasioned Jesus to say these words, and what did He mean by them? The answer to those questions is learned from the context in which they are found. For that, we need to backup to v. 22,

22. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23. There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24. So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25. When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26. Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
30. So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31. “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”
32. Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33. “For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
34. Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35. Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. “But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.”

We can see immediately from the above verses that the conversation between Jesus and this crowed was confrontational and that the crowd consisted of a group of selfish Jews who were more interested in getting free food to eat (v. 26) than they were in partaking of the Bread of Life. Jesus responded to their worldly, selfish attitude by saying,

27. “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28. Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus goes here right to the heart of the matter—they MUST “work” for the food which endures to eternal life (v. 27). The Jews respond by asking Him what that “work” is that they must perform (v. 28). He replies (v. 29) that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.” There is no imaginative play on words here, no change in the use of the genitive case, no exegetically sound way out of this one! Jesus is telling this crowd of Jews that the work of God that they must perform is believing “in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 30, the Jews ask Jesus, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work (the same Greek word) do You perform?” They tell Jesus that God gave their fathers manna in the wilderness, and Jesus replies that, “it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.” Notice that God gives the true bread, but that He gives it to those persons whom perform the work of God, that is, to those persons who believe in Him whom He has sent.”

In verse 37, Jesus says to these Jews, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” To whom does the word “all” in this verse apply? It applies to all those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent (v. 29), so that the Father can give them to Jesus. All of those persons who perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent, will come to Jesus. The Father gives the believers to Jesus, and the believers come to Jesus.

In John chapter 6 we find, therefore, Jesus expressly teaching these Jews that, in order to be saved and have eternal life, they must perform the work of God, believing in Him whom the Father has sent. God’s work is to give Jesus to the sinner; the sinner’s work is to believe in Jesus whom the father has sent.

John 6:29. Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 3:16. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

 

[Hupomone10]

So does God just randomly decide to regenerate us one day? We have no participation in it whatsoever?

---------------------------------

The answer is a big fat NO, to say that we participate in our own salvation is to deny the Gospel... See John 6:37-44 + Romans 9:14-16

I have a question for any who believe this statement "to say that we participate in our own salvation is to deny the Gospel"

The gospel is
Rom 15:1, 3-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you...
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died for our sins...
and that He was buried,
and that He was raised on the third day..."
and the last element, which may not be strictly part of the gospel but is definitely part of salvation if not the gospel:
Gal 3:24
"that we may be justified by faith."
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:40
and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

Which part of the first part above, the gospel, is denied by the participation mentioned in the second part?

It is true that we do not participate in the gospel and that we do not participate in salvation in the sense of saving our own souls from sin, in the sense of accomplishing salvation. We cannot do that. That is in the hands of the Lord alone. But nowhere does Scripture tell us that we are not to participate in the salvation process. In fact, I will give two examples where scripture teaches exactly the opposite; and as a whole I would argue that scripture teaches this overwhelmingly so. If you want it to apply to you, you need to participate. If you want the results, you need to be involved in the process.

Example 1: when the Passover occurred:
Exodus 12:7,13
"And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it."
"And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt."

God saved, spared those who believed; Israel participated. All those who believed God's word put the blood on the doorposts. And God was glorified and showed His power.

Example 2: The Red Sea Deliverance

Exodus 14:13
"But Moses said to the people, "Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the LORD which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

This is an OT picture of our salvation. We know this from Paul's reference in 1 Cor. 10:1-4.

I bold-faced the terms so we couldn't miss the fact that they were told to stand by, indicating that they would have essentially no part in this salvation process, not in the events which accomplished the salvation. This is emphasized by the phrase "which He will accomplish for you today."

God accomplished it, they were to stand by.

Now we get to see what God means when He says that, and what man means when he says that. When were they actually delivered from death at the hands of the Egyptians? When were they actually saved, and did they participate at all?

Well, Moses being a good obedient follower of the Lord, thought his response was exactly what one should do in response to the above statements of God to him. He continued sitting and praying, waiting for God to do it all! Moses, just like Christians today, was not immune from coming up with his own theology and thinking that his thinking was God's thinking.

God's response is interesting:
Exodus 14:15
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to Me? Tell the sons of Israel to go forward."

Long story short: God provided the cloud, Moses lifted up his staff and stretched out his hands, God parted the sea, and then hardened the hearts of the Egyptians to go in after Israel, and then "The sons of Israel went through the midst of the sea on the dry land." They showed their faith in Jehovah God by taking the faith step and ignoring the walls of water on each side of them.

God accomplished it, for He said so. He said it would be He who accomplished it even though Moses would raise his staff and even though Israel's participation was absolutely required in order to get to the other side of the sea. And through God's work and Israel's participation in the only thing they could do, express faith by walking forward, we are told that God was glorified and His power shown.

Are we going to sit by like Moses and think we have no required response? God has worked; Christ's blood has been shed. Christ tells us emphatically over and over and over "believe in me", "come to me", "receive me". Those who due to their own pride or whatever reason, do not personally receive Christ as Savior, even though hiding behind doctrinal systems, will have no excuse on that Day. "

Blessings,
H.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The answer is a big fat NO, to say that we participate in our own salvation is to deny the Gospel. It is the in part or wholly reject the sovereignty of God. See John 6:37-44 + Romans 9:14-16

Rom. 9:14. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15. For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16. So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

This passage of Scripture, when removed from the context of the rest of the chapter, appears to teach that man has no part in his salvation, but when one reads the entire chapter, including verses 6 and 7,

6. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7. nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

we see that Paul is defending God in keeping His promise to Abraham. God’s promise was not to all of Abraham’s descendents, but only to his descendents through Isaac. As we continue reading the chapter, we see that Paul is defending God’s right to make the promise that He made to Abraham. He concludes the chapter with these verses:

30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Righteousness comes from God to the sinner, whether he is a Jew or a Gentile, exclusively through his faith.

Gen. 15:1. After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.”
2. Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3. And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.”
4. Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.”
5. And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6. Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Rom. 4:3. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Gal. 3:6. Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

James 2:23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the Updated NASB, 1995)

 

[98cwitr]

1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

Man...if only we could say that belief was of ourselves! That we pour faith upon ourselves! But we can't!