Age of Accountability

[Hammster]

So.....it's only the things of God that we are unable to discern? It's a wonder that faith in God survived at all...

Not really. That is the point. If God doesn't change a person first, they won't believe. You must be born again to see (believe) the kingdom of God.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
Moreover, among Reformed Baptists there are major differences in their Reformed beliefs. For example, Dr. Thomas R. Schreiner (SBTS – The School of Theology – Thomas R. Schreiner), who has already been mentioned in this thread, teaches a Reformed view of the Perseverance of the Saints that is so different from what most Reformed Baptists believe that some of them consider him to be a false teacher! (See especially The Race Set Before Us by Thomas R. Schreiner and Ardel B. Caneday).

Not true...

If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, and if you had read the reviews of the book by Reformed Baptists who find the teaching in it to be alarming, you would know for a fact that my post is true and factual. If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, you would know that Schreiner and Caneday set aside as incorrect the three most popular of the different and conflicting Reformed interpretations of the “warning passages” in the Epistle to the Hebrews (2:1-4; 3:7 – 4:13; 5:11 – 6:12; 10:19-39; 12:1-29—by their account, not mine) and write that these passages do indeed speak of genuine Christians losing their salvation, as is taught by Arminians, but that these passages serve to instill in the reader a fear of God that is used by God, in His providence, to keep them from falling into apostasy. If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, you would know that this teaching of Schreiner and Caneday is very different from the “hypothetical” interpretation taught by some Reformed teachers of Hebrews.

For a more detailed analysis of all four of the popular, different, and conflicting Reformed interpretations of the warning passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews, see the recent (2010) commentary on Hebrews (in “The New American Commentary” series) by David L. Allen, Dean of Theology at Southwester Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth Texas.

 

[AndOne]

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy
Moreover, among Reformed Baptists there are major differences in their Reformed beliefs. For example, Dr. Thomas R. Schreiner (SBTS – The School of Theology – Thomas R. Schreiner), who has already been mentioned in this thread, teaches a Reformed view of the Perseverance of the Saints that is so different from what most Reformed Baptists believe that some of them consider him to be a false teacher! (See especially The Race Set Before Us by Thomas R. Schreiner and Ardel B. Caneday).


If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, and if you had read the reviews of the book by Reformed Baptists who find the teaching in it to be alarming, you would know for a fact that my post is true and factual. If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, you would know that Schreiner and Caneday set aside as incorrect the three most popular of the different and conflicting Reformed interpretations of the “warning passages” in the Epistle to the Hebrews (2:1-4; 3:7 – 4:13; 5:11 – 6:12; 10:19-39; 12:1-29—by their account, not mine) and write that these passages do indeed speak of genuine Christians losing their salvation, as is taught by Arminians, but that these passages serve to instill in the reader a fear of God that is used by God, in His providence, to keep them from falling into apostasy. If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, you would know that this teaching of Schreiner and Caneday is very different from the “hypothetical” interpretation taught by some Reformed teachers of Hebrews.

For a more detailed analysis of all four of the popular, different, and conflicting Reformed interpretations of the warning passages in the Epistle to the Hebrews, see the recent (2010) commentary on Hebrews (in “The New American Commentary” series) by David L. Allen, Dean of Theology at Southwester Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth Texas.

I disagree with you. Which Reformed Baptists claim Schreiner is not Calvinist? And have they done so in the last ten years?

Regardless - none of this changes the fact that SBTS is a Calvinist Seminary.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

yep - saying SBTS isn't Calvinist is like saying Liberty isn't Arminian...

No one in this thread is denying that one finds in the faculty at SBTS men who have been very heavily influence by the teaching of Calvin. Nonetheless, “The “Baptist Faith and Message 2000” is the official doctrinal position of the seminary, and although elements of the teaching of Calvin are found in many places in the document, it is not a thoroughly Calvinistic or Reformed document.

An exposition from the faculty of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on “The Baptist Faith and Message 2000” can be read here:

http://www.sbts.edu/documents/bfmexposition.pdf

Pertinent to this thread are the following words from “The Baptist Faith and Message 2000,”

III. Man
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Notice especially these words from the above paragraph, “as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation.” According to this document, the age of accountability would be a very early age, the exact age depending upon the individual child’s cognitive abilities.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I disagree with you.

You are disagreeing about what the books says even though you have not read it!

Which Reformed Baptists claim Schreiner is not Calvinist? And have they done so in the last ten years?

If you had read the book, The Race Set Before Us, and if you had read the reviews of the book by Reformed Baptists who find the teaching in it to be alarming, you would know the answers to your questions.

Regardless - none of this changes the fact that SBTS is a Calvinist Seminary.

The President of the seminary, R. Albert Mohler, Jr., is a Reformed Baptist but NOT a Calvinist. The seminary itself is NEITHER Reformed nor Calvinist, being legally bound by “The Baptist Faith and Message 2000.”

 

[Fencerguy]

Not really. That is the point. If God doesn't change a person first, they won't believe.

....Which brings me back to the question of: How can a god who claims to be the definition and embodiment of Love not choose to change everyone, so that everyone will believe and subsequently go to heaven? If God really is the puppetmaster that you seem to suggest, then He must surely be contradicting himself since not everyone is changed so that they can believe?

You must be born again to see (believe) the kingdom of God.

And how, pray tell, is one born again?

 

[Hammster]

....Which brings me back to the question of: How can a god who claims to be the definition and embodiment of Love not choose to change everyone, so that everyone will believe and subsequently go to heaven? If God really is the puppetmaster that you seem to suggest, then He must surely be contradicting himself since not everyone is changed so that they can believe?

Puppetmaster? *sigh*. I was really hoping we would avoid the straw-man attacks and have a decent conversation. I guess that was too much to hope for, huh?

Anyway, I think that what you are forgetting is that God owes us nothing except wrath. We are despicable sinners who want nothing to do with God (Romans 3). Yet because of His love, He has chosen to save some. Why doesn't He choose to save all? I don't know. But then, I don't know He has decided to save even one. His love certainly doesn't obligate Him to do so. And while He is love, His highest love is for Himself and His glory. Which is why He must also judge those who sin against Him.

And how, pray tell, is one born again?

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

 

[Isolation]

....Which brings me back to the question of: How can a god who claims to be the definition and embodiment of Love not choose to change everyone, so that everyone will believe and subsequently go to heaven? If God really is the puppetmaster that you seem to suggest, then He must surely be contradicting himself since not everyone is changed so that they can believe?

And how, pray tell, is one born again?

to be born again is to be born without sin by belief in water and the spirit

 

[Fencerguy]

Puppetmaster? *sigh*. I was really hoping we would avoid the straw-man attacks and have a decent conversation. I guess that was too much to hope for, huh?

I asked an honest question, why get so upset? Simply dismissing my question does not answer it.....
How does your view actually differ from my suggestion of God as a Great Puppetmaster?

Anyway, I think that what you are forgetting is that God owes us nothing except wrath. We are despicable sinners who want nothing to do with God (Romans 3). Yet because of His love, He has chosen to save some. Why doesn't He choose to save all? I don't know. But then, I don't know He has decided to save even one. His love certainly doesn't obligate Him to do so. And while He is love, His highest love is for Himself and His glory. Which is why He must also judge those who sin against Him.

So being created in His image means that we still want nothing to do with God? I would say that the religious desires of every persons heart show that they want to know about and know of spiritual things....
Why would God's highest love being for Himself and His glory prevent Him from saving everyone in the world? Wouldn't having more subjects to love and worship Him allow His glory to become even more magnified?

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

So.......we don't know how we are born again?

 

[Fencerguy]

to be born again is to be born without sin by belief in water and the spirit

 

[Hammster]

I asked an honest question, why get so upset? Simply dismissing my question does not answer it.....
How does your view actually differ from my suggestion of God as a Great Puppetmaster?

So being created in His image means that we still want nothing to do with God? I would say that the religious desires of every persons heart show that they want to know about and know of spiritual things....
Why would God's highest love being for Himself and His glory prevent Him from saving everyone in the world? Wouldn't having more subjects to love and worship Him allow His glory to become even more magnified?

So.......we don't know how we are born again?

It seems that you keep ignoring the Scripture I reference. And someone's unbiblical view gets a clap. So, if you'd like to desk with texts, that's fine. But if you want to keep making emotional arguments, then nothing I say will matter.

 

[Hammster]

to be born again is to be born without sin by belief in water and the spirit

No biblical support. Nada.

 

[Isolation]

No biblical support. Nada.

much like osas, this age thread, and the blood of the cross alone saving

nada

 

[AndOne]

You are disagreeing about what the books says even though you have not read it!

I don't necessarily disagree with the book. I do disagree with your claim regarding the author.

 

[Hammster]

much like osas, this age thread, and the blood of the cross alone saving

nada

You admit that you have no support? How refreshing. Sorta.

 

[AndOne]

No one in this thread is denying that one finds in the faculty at SBTS men who have been very heavily influence by the teaching of Calvin. Nonetheless, “The “Baptist Faith and Message 2000” is the official doctrinal position of the seminary, and although elements of the teaching of Calvin are found in many places in the document, it is not a thoroughly Calvinistic or Reformed document.

An exposition from the faculty of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary on “The Baptist Faith and Message 2000” can be read here:

http://www.sbts.edu/documents/bfmexposition.pdf

Pertinent to this thread are the following words from “The Baptist Faith and Message 2000,”

III. Man
Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Notice especially these words from the above paragraph, “as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation.” According to this document, the age of accountability would be a very early age, the exact age depending upon the individual child’s cognitive abilities.

It is referring to Adam before he fell.

 

[Isolation]

You admit that you have no support? How refreshing. Sorta.

twisting words lol
I was saying how those doctrines I listed have no biblical support
But I can prove mine with easy ones like

"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

that implies one can be without sin by faith in Him

 

[Hammster]

twisting words lol
I was saying how those doctrines I listed have no biblical support
But I can prove mine with easy ones like

"Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

that implies one can be without sin by faith in Him

Your interpretation is wrong, but besides that, what does that have to do with being born again?

 

[Isolation]

Your interpretation is wrong, but besides that, what does that have to do with being born again?

being born again means having the remission of sin correct?
so if you dont have the remission of sin, you have sin
you're not born again

 

[Hammster]

being born again means having the remission of sin correct?
so if you dont have the remission of sin, you have sin
you're not born again

Where is the support that says being born again is having remission of sin?