Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[Kenny'sID]

The 'someone' DOES have faith, because he refers to it. But his point is that one CANNOT show their faith TO OTHERS apart from deeds.

Is that what they taught you that means? Sad

Don't you know preaches get a larger following hence more support for teaching ways that are easy but not true? Things just like OSAS. That in turn gives the congregation the delusion they choose/want to believe and makes it possible to further the teaching to all who will buy it...

The devil IS in the details.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Is that what they taught you that means?

No, that's what James was teaching.

Sad

I'm sorry you're sad.

Don't you know preaches get a larger following hence more support for teaching ways that are easy but not true?

I'm not preaching. I'm defending the truth of God's Word.

Things just like OSAS.

Really? Apparently you haven't read Romans yet.

The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Duh.

That in turn gives the congregation the delusion they choose/want to believe and makes it possible to further the teaching to all who will buy it...

The devil IS in the details.

One way the devil trips up believers is to get them to think that they can lose salvation. It keeps them off balance and totally messes up the gospel of grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is that why those who think that salvation can be lost ignore it?


Are you able to discern the difference between God's perspective and man's perspective?

It seems that you aren't.

From God's perspective, He doesn't need to see evidence of faith, for He is omniscient, unlike humanity.

But humans, who aren't omniscient, NEED to see evidence of faith. That is the point of James 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

The 'someone' DOES have faith, because he refers to it. But his point is that one CANNOT show their faith TO OTHERS apart from deeds.

Again, for those unfamiliar with the concept, God is omniscient and doesn't need to see evidence. He sees the heart.

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Paul taught the same principle in 2 Cor 8-21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

James must be understood in this light: he was speaking about demonstrating one's faith in the eyes of men.

Consider the excellent example he gave in James 2:15,16 regarding 'dead faith'.

To say something without backing it up is hypocrisy. Believers who are hypocrites have a dead faith.

Did the cold and hungry people in the example of James 2:15,16 see any faith in the jerk hypocrite who passed by? Was the jerk justified in their eyes from what he said to them?

Of course not. That's James' point.

So are you saying that a believer committing the sin of hypocrisy cannot undo the promise of Eternal Security?
Are you saying that even if a person has a dead faith it can still save them?
Are you saying we are not justified by works?
I am just trying to understand where you are coming from here.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

So are you saying that a believer committing the sin of hypocrisy cannot undo the promise of Eternal Security?

No, that's what the Bible clearly indicates. Because:
The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23

Rom 11:29 is what is called a "blanket statement". Meaning, it covers ALL the gifts of God. Otherwise, Paul would have included within that statement exceptions. But he didn't do that.

He didn't write:
"some of the gifts of God are irrevocable"
"most of the gifts of God are irrevocable"
"nearly all the gifts of God are irrevocable"

He wrote: the gifts of God are irrevocable. So, without further clarification, we have to understand that he actually meant ALL of the gifts of God are irrevocable.

To think, believe, or claim that only "some", or "most" or any other limited wording was meant, clearly goes WAY beyond what he did write.

Are you saying that even if a person has a dead faith it can still save them?

See above for the answer.

Are you saying we are not justified by works?

Not in the eyes of God. Only in the eyes of others.

I am just trying to understand where you are coming from here....

From God's word. And I do hope that you will understand His word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So are you saying that a believer committing the sin of hypocrisy cannot undo the promise of Eternal Security?

No, that's what the Bible clearly indicates. Because:
The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23

Rom 11:29 is what is called a "blanket statement". Meaning, it covers ALL the gifts of God. Otherwise, Paul would have included within that statement exceptions. But he didn't do that.

He didn't write:
"some of the gifts of God are irrevocable"
"most of the gifts of God are irrevocable"
"nearly all the gifts of God are irrevocable"

He wrote: the gifts of God are irrevocable. So, without further clarification, we have to understand that he actually meant ALL of the gifts of God are irrevocable.

To think, believe, or claim that only "some", or "most" or any other limited wording was meant, clearly goes WAY beyond what he did write.

Well, by your reply here, the answer to my first question would be a "yes." For I asked if the sin of hypocrisy cannot undo the Promise of Eternal Security. In either case, I got my answer. So thank you.

So by my understanding of what you said here, you are saying that there can be saved believing hypocrites. Yet, did not Jesus have a problem with the Pharisees for being hypocrites? Should that not be an indication or clue that one is not supposed to be like them in any way because Jesus was really angry at them?

Are you saying that even if a person has a dead faith it can still save them?

See above for the answer.

So it appears that you are saying that a dead faith can save a person.

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1).

It seems to me that people have a dead faith in God and dead works before they become a believer and that they repent of all of this before getting their heart truly right with Him for real.

Also, how can one access the saving grace of God that saves if one's faith is dead? Are we not saved by grace THRU faith? (Ephesians 2:8).

Do you not know that without faith, it is impossible to please Him? (Hebrews 11:6).

James compares one's faith (who has no works) is like the faith of demons.
What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Are you saying we are not justified by works?

Not in the eyes of God. Only in the eyes of others.

No.

Paul was talking about works of the Law of Moses; James was talking about works of faith involving Jesus Christ. Paul was showing the Judaizing Christians that no one could be righteous, or justified, by works of law of Moses, for no one has kept the law perfectly their entire lives, and that to be justified or made righteous, a person must believe in Christ. Paul was arguing that works without faith would not justify, and James was arguing that faith without works would not justify. To exclude either is to fail of justification. Both Paul and James referred to Abraham to illustrate their points. Abraham was justified without works of law of Moses (because the Law came later), but Abraham was justified by works of faith (In fact, Abraham had seen Christ's day and was glad). James laid down the principle that faith without works is dead, and will not justify. He used Abraham as an example, and then drew the broad conclusion that a man -- any man -- is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Source Used (for this above paragraph):
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ComparisonOfRomans4James2.html

From God's word. And I do hope that you will understand His word.

Sorry, I already understand God's Word on this point just fine.
As for those who think they can sin and still be saved: They need to re-read carefully again the following: 1 Timothy 6:3-4 cf. James 4:6.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, by your reply here, the answer to my first question would be a "yes." For I asked if the sin of hypocrisy cannot do the Promise of Eternal Security. In either case, I got my answer. So thank you.

So by my understanding of what you said here, you are saying that there can be saved believing hypocrites.

The Bible says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. And that eternal life is a gift of God. And Paul never excluded any of the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

Therefore, all the gifts of God are irrevocable. All.of.them.

Yet, did not Jesus have a problem with the Pharisees for being hypocrites?

Jesus had a problem with hypocrisy period. Whether one was saved or not.

Should that not be an indication or clue that one is not supposed to be like them in any way because Jesus was really angry at them?

That's why Jesus' brother preached against hypocrisy in James 2.

So it appears that you are saying that a dead faith can save a person.

No I didn't say that. Your conclusion from my posts reveals a complete lack of understanding of my posts.

I dead faith will NOT save a believer from being a hypocrite. But that may just be too deep for anyone who thinks that salvation can be lost.

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God." (Hebrews 6:1).

The Greek word means "maturity". iow, to grow up spiritually.

Also, how can one access the saving grace of God that saves if one's faith is dead? Are we not saved by grace THRU faith? (Ephesians 2:8).

How can one believe the very words of Eph 2:8 when one preaches works for salvation??

Do you not know that without faith, it is impossible to please Him? (Hebrews 11:6).

Absolutely I do.

James compares one's faith (who has no works) to the faith of demons.

No he didn't. He pointed out that the demons also believe that God is One. iow, they understand the Trinity. And they believe that because they have EXPERIENCED the Trinity.

Humanity must believe the Trinity on faith. James was not speaking about faith of demons. Only what they believed, which was on the basis of their experience.

Faith is about believing without experience.

Source Used (for this above paragraph):
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/ComparisonOfRomans4James2.html

coc has lots of problems. Water baptism doesn't save anyone, any more than works will save anyone.

Sorry, I already understand God's Word on this point just fine.

It is clear to me that you don't.

As for those who think they can sin and still be saved: They need to re-read carefully again the following: 1 Timothy 6:3-4 cf. James 4:6....

How can sin remove one from being in a saved state? Your thinking is very flawed and has NO Scripture to support it.

We are saved by grace (which your side does not understand) through faith, NOT of works (which your side does not understand).

And again I point out the hypocrisy of your position. You have acknowledged that you have not yet achieved sinless perfection. That means there is STILL sin in your life. Yet you've also claimed that you are saved.

If one cannot sin and still be saved (as you claim), then you yourself are NOT saved (as you claim).

Period.

 

[EmSw]

Is that why those who think that salvation can be lost ignore it?

Are you able to discern the difference between God's perspective and man's perspective?

It seems that you aren't.

From God's perspective, He doesn't need to see evidence of faith, for He is omniscient, unlike humanity.

But humans, who aren't omniscient, NEED to see evidence of faith. That is the point of James 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

Again, your familiarity with Jesus' teaching is lacking, and it shows.

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2 saying:“The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but theythemselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men.

Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees for this very thing you espouse. The Pharisees did their works to be seen by men. And now you are telling others this is what James meant when James knew this is not what Jesus taught. This is not what James is trying to tell us, despite your Pharisaical teachings.

The 'someone' DOES have faith, because he refers to it. But his point is that one CANNOT show their faith TO OTHERS apart from deeds.

Again, for those unfamiliar with the concept, God is omniscient and doesn't need to see evidence. He sees the heart.

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Paul taught the same principle in 2 Cor 8-21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

James must be understood in this light: he was speaking about demonstrating one's faith in the eyes of men.

Consider the excellent example he gave in James 2:15,16 regarding 'dead faith'.

To say something without backing it up is hypocrisy. Believers who are hypocrites have a dead faith.

Did the cold and hungry people in the example of James 2:15,16 see any faith in the jerk hypocrite who passed by? Was the jerk justified in their eyes from what he said to them?

Of course not. That's James' point.

So, we are to be justified in the sight of men, huh? How little you know of Jesus' teachings. Let's look at what Jesus said about God and our hearts.

Luke 16
14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

So you want believers to justify themselves before men. Jesus said that is an abomination in the sight of God. Yet, you feel the need to tell others of this Pharisaical abomination. This justifying ourselves before men is highly esteemed by you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, your familiarity with Jesus' teaching is lacking, and it shows.

One big lol.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2 saying:“The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but theythemselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men.

Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees for this very thing you espouse.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you think I espouse. Could you explain what you mean?

The Pharisees did their works to be seen by men. And now you are telling others this is what James meant when James knew this is not what Jesus taught.

Here is exactly what James said in 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

One of the reasons your theology is all messed up is because of how you try to mix and match verses to say what you prefer they say.

Why should anyone think Matt 23 has any direct relation to James? It doesn't. Jesus was pointing to the gross hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did things for their OWN GLORY.

James' point was that Christians need to demonstrate their faith to others so that it can be seen by them. And to NOT be hypocrites.

So, James and Jesus were on the exact same page. But you missed it.

So, we are to be justified in the sight of men, huh?

I guess my post wasn't read all that carefully, huh. In 2:15 and 16, James gives an example of a hypocrite; he SAYS "be warm and filled" but he didn't do anything about their needs. iow, he was all talk, and no action. James' point was to serve others from your faith.

So you want believers to justify themselves before men.

I already quoted this verse, but I'm doing it again and I'd like your understanding of what Paul meant:

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

Jesus said that is an abomination in the sight of God. Yet, you feel the need to tell others of this Pharisaical abomination. This justifying ourselves before men is highly esteemed by you.

It's pretty obvious that your grasp of Scripture is rather limited.

However, what did Paul mean by the words I put in red?

 

[EmSw]

One big lol.

Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?

The Pharisees thought they had eternal life also; they belong to the group of OSAS. They said they were the children of Abraham. Yet, many of them perished. Why was their eternal life revoked? Why did they perish?

Sorry, but I have no idea what you think I espouse. Could you explain what you mean?

You are spouting your beliefs every day on this forum. How is it I, or anyone else, has any idea what you think? Are your words deceptive so that man has no idea what you espouse?

Here is exactly what James said in 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

One of the reasons your theology is all messed up is because of how you try to mix and match verses to say what you prefer they say.

I will tell you the same, show me your faith without deeds. Can you? Aren't you a 'faith alone' junkie? Show me your faith without deeds. Can you? Without deeds, you can't! Your faith is dead, that is, no life within it...none!

Why should anyone think Matt 23 has any direct relation to James? It doesn't. Jesus was pointing to the gross hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did things for their OWN GLORY.

James' point was that Christians need to demonstrate their faith to others so that it can be seen by them. And to NOT be hypocrites.

So, James and Jesus were on the exact same page. But you missed it.

So, Jesus' teachings doesn't have any direct relationship to James' teachings, yet they are on the same page. Yeah right!

James' point was that faith without works is DEAD! Dead, as no life within.

I guess my post wasn't read all that carefully, huh. In 2:15 and 16, James gives an example of a hypocrite; he SAYS "be warm and filled" but he didn't do anything about their needs. iow, he was all talk, and no action. James' point was to serve others from your faith.


I already quoted this verse, but I'm doing it again and I'd like your understanding of what Paul meant:

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.


It's pretty obvious that your grasp of Scripture is rather limited.

However, what did Paul mean by the words I put in red?

James says nothing about hypocrisy. This is added by you to justify your beliefs. Hypocrisy is saying one believes in Jesus and doesn't follow Him, nor obey His commands. This my friend, is hypocrisy.

 

[-57]

So you ignored what Jesus said in Luke 18.

With out your commentary...the meaning you have in mind seems to be lost.

 

[-57]

Here is another point for Eternal Security Proponents to consider.

Question: How many times does “faith alone” occur in Scripture?

Answer: Only one time.

Here is the verse:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)​

It is true! In the one spot in all of God's Word that the words “faith alone” occurs, it is specifically rejected that it can save a person.


...

Question: "How can you believe in salvation by faith alone when the only occurrence of ‘faith alone’ in the Bible (James 2:24) says that salvation is not by faith alone?"

Answer: It is entirely true that the one verse in the Bible that contains the exact phrase “faith alone” seems to argue against salvation by faith alone. James 2:24 reads, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (ESV). However, rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based on this verse has two major problems. First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

James 2:14–26, as a whole, and especially verse 24, has been the subject of some confused interpretations. The passage definitely seems to cause serious problems for the “salvation by faith alone” concept. First, we need to clear up a misconception, namely, that James means the same thing by “justified” in James 2:24 that Paul means in Romans 3:28. Paul is using the word justified to mean “declared righteous by God.” Paul is speaking of God’s legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ’s righteousness is applied to our account. James is using the word justified to mean “being demonstrated and proved.”

The 2011 NIV provides an excellent rendering of James 2:24: “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone” (emphasis added). Similarly, the NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (emphasis added). The entire James 2:14–26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (cf. Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

ref

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Question: "How can you believe in salvation by faith alone when the only occurrence of ‘faith alone’ in the Bible (James 2:24) says that salvation is not by faith alone?"

Answer: It is entirely true that the one verse in the Bible that contains the exact phrase “faith alone” seems to argue against salvation by faith alone. James 2:24 reads, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (ESV). However, rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based on this verse has two major problems. First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

James 2:14–26, as a whole, and especially verse 24, has been the subject of some confused interpretations. The passage definitely seems to cause serious problems for the “salvation by faith alone” concept. First, we need to clear up a misconception, namely, that James means the same thing by “justified” in James 2:24 that Paul means in Romans 3:28. Paul is using the word justified to mean “declared righteous by God.” Paul is speaking of God’s legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ’s righteousness is applied to our account. James is using the word justified to mean “being demonstrated and proved.”

The 2011 NIV provides an excellent rendering of James 2:24: “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone” (emphasis added). Similarly, the NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (emphasis added). The entire James 2:14–26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (cf. Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone.

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

ref

No. This is not true.

Based on the context, James essentially says earlier that departing from evil is able to save one's own soul.

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

For James says be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).

James also says,

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
‭(James 2:14).

Did you catch that?

James asks "can faith SAVE him"?

This lets us know James is talking about salvation.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

You missed the part that says, in the eyes of the Lord in that verse.

Your point before was all about being justified in the eyes of men and not God.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also,

“That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”
‭(Matthew 6:4).

“Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭(2 Corinthians 5:9-11).

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭(Romans 2:6-9).


....

 

[EmSw]

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭(Romans 2:6-9).....

These verses alone disprove OSAS and faith alone. However, those who hold to these beliefs will fall all over themselves to prove these verses do not disprove OSAS and faith alone.

These verses are simple, even a youngster can understand them. God will render (give) TO EVERY MAN according to his deeds. Now this verse is not difficult at all to understand. What will God render? Here is the stumbling block for some; He renders ETERNAL LIFE to those who CONTINUE IN WELL DOING. Again, nothing difficult to understand here.

God will also render to those who do not OBEY the truth, but OBEY unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH! How many have we seen on this forum roll over backwards saying man can live in sin and not obey Jesus, and still be saved? Then Paul says tribulation and anguish upon EVERY MAN who does evil, Jew and Greek alike.

As I've said many times, each man freely chooses what he believes and how he lives. I will say this again, choose wisely!

 

[-57]

No. This is not true.

Based on the context, James essentially says earlier that departing from evil is able to save one's own soul.

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

For James says be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).

James also says,

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
‭(James 2:14).

Did you catch that?

James asks "can faith SAVE him"?

This lets us know James is talking about salvation.

...

James is saying...you do because you are saved...it demonstrates your faith.

If you want to change the bible and present cult beliefs....have at it. Perhaps you're a JW or LDS.

 

[samir]

These verses alone disprove OSAS and faith alone. However, those who hold to these beliefs will fall all over themselves to prove these verses do not disprove OSAS and faith alone.

These verses are simple, even a youngster can understand them. God will render (give) TO EVERY MAN according to his deeds. Now this verse is not difficult at all to understand. What will God render? Here is the stumbling block for some; He renders ETERNAL LIFE to those who CONTINUE IN WELL DOING. Again, nothing difficult to understand here.

God will also render to those who do not OBEY the truth, but OBEY unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH! How many have we seen on this forum roll over backwards saying man can live in sin and not obey Jesus, and still be saved? Then Paul says tribulation and anguish upon EVERY MAN who does evil, Jew and Greek alike.

As I've said many times, each man freely chooses what he believes and how he lives. I will say this again, choose wisely!

True but it doesn't itch the ears of those who want an easy path to heaven so I doubt too many will listen.

I agree scripture is clear to those willing to listen. If you choose to repent and follow God because of your faith then your faith will save you. If not, your faith won't save you. Salvation is by faith through grace because faith is the reason the justified person repented of his sins, turned to God, and accepted His grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

James is saying...you do because you are saved...it demonstrates your faith.

If you want to change the bible and present cult beliefs....have at it. Perhaps you're a JW or LDS.

Dear 57:

First, in my profile display in each of my posts, I list myself as "non-denominational"; And on my profile info page, I provided a link here at CF to a detailed lengthy "statement of faith."

Second, I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God and that the Bible alone is our sole authority (and no other writings, or book, or oral tradition is acceptable). So this rules out the fact that I am a part of the two religions you are referring to (or any other religions that have a church name for that matter). I believe in house fellowship with other like minded Christians.

Three, proper Soteriology is neither Antinomianism nor Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ and my hope is in Him. For it was my coming to Jesus (and being sorrowful in a Godly way) that cancels out my past sin debt (making my sins that were once scarlet washed clean as white as snow). Jesus saves me both in Justification (faith in Him and what He has done for me with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and Jesus saves me in Sanctification (In His working thru my life to walk as He walked). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).

Four, please address the verses I brought forth if you believe you are correct instead of attacking me.

Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

Jason.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?"

The Pharisees thought they had eternal life also; they belong to the group of OSAS

This is an odd response to my comment. Again, my question was ignored. And the Pharisees thought they had eternal life in the SAME WAY your side thinks you have it; by being good. They did have the Law, but they rejected the ONLY WORK that leads to eternal life: the work of Christ on the cross paying the penalty for our sins.

They said they were the children of Abraham. Yet, many of them perished. Why was their eternal life revoked? Why did they perish?

Where does the Bible say their eternal life was revoked? It doesn't. They NEVER had it. That was Jesus' point. They were counting on their moral life to save them.

And I am quite amazed at your question since the Bible very clearly states that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE, and your view is that the Pharisees had eternal life but it was revoked, even though eternal life is a gift of God.

You are spouting your beliefs every day on this forum.

More like refuting the unbiblical teachings from your side.

How is it I, or anyone else, has any idea what you think? Are your words deceptive so that man has no idea what you espouse?

If anyone doesn't understand what I post, just ask. I'd be more than happy to clarify.

I will tell you the same, show me your faith without deeds. Can you?

No, of course not. That was James' point.

Aren't you a 'faith alone' junkie?

I don't like your sasrcasm one bit. For salvation, the Bible teaches faith alone. Why don't you accept Eph 2:9? "not by works, so that no one can boast."

Show me your faith without deeds. Can you? Without deeds, you can't! Your faith is dead, that is, no life within it...none!

You just keep missing the point. Human beings CANNOT see one's faith apart from what they do. God doesn't need to see deeds in order to see one's faith. He sees the heart.

Didn't you read my explanation of all that? I quoted from Samuel where God told Samuel that it is man who looks on the outside, but that God looks at the heart.

I said this:
"Why should anyone think Matt 23 has any direct relation to James? It doesn't. Jesus was pointing to the gross hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did things for their OWN GLORY.

James' point was that Christians need to demonstrate their faith to others so that it can be seen by them. And to NOT be hypocrites.

So, James and Jesus were on the exact same page. But you missed it."

So, Jesus' teachings doesn't have any direct relationship to James' teachings, yet they are on the same page. Yeah right!

Just keep on missing the point. Jesus was speaking to UNSAVED Pharisees, who thought they had eternal life by their lifestyle. James was speaking to SAVED believers who needed to be encouraged to live out their faith before others.

James' point was that faith without works is DEAD! Dead, as no life within

Which has nothing to do with loss of eternal life, as much as you'd like it to be that.

James says nothing about hypocrisy.

While he didn't use the word, his message clearly was about it.

This is added by you to justify your beliefs.

It's sad that the clear subject of hypocrisy is not being discerned.

Hypocrisy is saying one believes in Jesus and doesn't follow Him, nor obey His commands. This my friend, is hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]
Correct. Good example. But it has nothing directly to do with being saved. Both believers and unbelievers can be hypocrites.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Based on the context, James essentially says earlier that departing from evil is able to save one's own soul.

Please consider what this means then.

If departing from evil saves one's own soul, then the person who departs from evil is their own savior. How preposterous.

That would mean that Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. Again, just preposterous.

Have you really considered all the ramifications of your views?

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21).

What is the context for v.21? v.13-16, which is about temptations leading to sin.

v.21 teaches that by avoiding (laying apart) all filthiness and naughtiness, AND receiving the Word (God's instructions for living in righteousness) one is delivered, rescued, saved from such temptations.

For James says be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).

So how does this verse fit into your theology?

James also says,

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
‭(James 2:14).

The question that one needs to ask is: "to save from what?"

Did you catch that?

Did YOU catch that?

James asks "can faith SAVE him"?

It is clear from all your posts that you do not believe that one is saved by faith. I get that. Even though Eph 2:8,9 totally refutes your misunderstanding of Scripture.

We are saved by grace (which you seem to have no understanding of) through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. These 2 verses totally refutes your views.

This lets us know James is talking about salvation....

Your opinion does not change the facts.

Do you really think that most people think it's no big deal if others think of them as hypocrites? Even the Pharisees didn't want that. Which is why Jesus called them that so frequently, and why they hated Him so much.

The ONLY WAY a Christian can avoid (save himself) from the charge of being a hypocrite is to demonstrate their faith (live it out) in front of others.