Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[FreeGrace2]

You missed the part that says, in the eyes of the Lord in that verse.

No, actually I got that.

Your point before was all about being justified in the eyes of men and not God.
...

Do you seriously believe that God needs to see one's works in order to know that they have faith?

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

A story of God's Free Gift and FR.

God put an ad to find someone to receive His free gift of a car. FR answered the ad.

God says to FR, "By accepting this car as a free gift which is irrevocable, you believe me." FR replies, "I get it." God then goes on to say, "I will maintain the car at my expense in regards to all cost. I'll provide a new car for you when this one gets too old." FR replies, "Ok."

Two further details God adds, "If you believe me, you will be saved. If you do not believe me, you will be damned." FR replies, "Ok."

God then gives the keys to FR. One day, God gives FR a call. God says, "FR, when you have some free time, I need a lift." FR replies, "Ok." But FR never comes to give God a lift.

FR brings the car to God for a service. God takes care of it. When FR comes to collect the car, God reminds FR, "Don't forget when you have some free time to give me a lift. FR replied, "Ok."

This carried on until FR passed away.

At FR's Judgment, God says to FR, "You never had any free time?" FR replies, "Yes, I did." God then asks FR, "How come you didn't come and give me a lift?" FR replies, "Why did I have to do that for you? I believed you when I accepted the car as a free gift."

God replies, "Is that so? Do you think I am so stupid to give a car as a free gift to you for no reason? I wanted to ride with you in the car so I can spend some time with you and talk to you. But you must have thought I was going to take advantage of you, didn't you?" FR replies, "No."

God then says to FR, "Did you take me on a free ride?" "No" was the reply by FR. God then says to FR, "You are a cheat and liar. You have no honour. You believe me, FR?" FR replies, "No, I'm not, no." God says to FR, "Goodbye."

God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

These verses alone disprove OSAS and faith alone.

Let's listen to what the Bible says:

Does the Bible say that God's gifts are irrevocable? Yes. Rom 11:29
Does the Bible say that eternal life is a gift of God? Yes. Rom 6:23

Did Jesus say that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH? Yes. John 10:28
Did Jesus say that those who believe HAVE eternal life? Yes. John 5:24

Yet people continue to reject these truths and believe that salvation and eternal life can be revoked, and that those who have eternal life may still perish.

Amazing.

However, those who hold to these beliefs will fall all over themselves to prove these verses do not disprove OSAS and faith alone.

The proof that all the verses quoted over and over by the loss of salvation crowd is the verses that teach eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Peace be with you.

A story of God's Free Gift and FR.

God put an ad to find someone to receive His free gift of a car. FR answered the ad.

God says to FR, "By accepting this car as a free gift which is irrevocable, you believe me." FR replies, "I get it." God then goes on to say, "I will maintain the car at my expense in regards to all cost. I'll provide a new car for you when this one gets too old." FR replies, "Ok."

Two further details God adds, "If you believe me, you will be saved. If you do not believe me, you will be damned." FR replies, "Ok."

God then gives the keys to FR. One day, God gives FR a call. God says, "FR, when you have some free time, I need a lift." FR replies, "Ok." But FR never comes to give God a lift.

FR brings the car to God for a service. God takes care of it. When FR comes to collect the car, God reminds FR, "Don't forget when you have some free time to give me a lift. FR replied, "Ok."

This carried on until FR passed away.

At FR's Judgment, God says to FR, "You never had any free time?" FR replies, "Yes, I did." God then asks FR, "How come you didn't come and give me a lift?" FR replies, "Why did I have to do that for you? I believed you when I accepted the car as a free gift."

God replies, "Is that so? Do you think I am so stupid to give a car as a free gift to you for no reason? I wanted to ride with you in the car so I can spend some time with you and talk to you. But you must have thought I was going to take advantage of you, didn't you?" FR replies, "No."

God then says to FR, "Did you take me on a free ride?" "No" was the reply by FR. God then says to FR, "You are a cheat and liar. You have no honour. You believe me, FR?" FR replies, "No, I'm not, no." God says to FR, "Goodbye."

God bless you.

More holes in your example than can be found in swiss cheese.

 

[lorimilne]

Obviously the OP has his mind set and no amount of reasoning can sway them.

However, I offer this:

"11...A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." -Lk. 15:11-32 (KJV)

When we accept Christ, when we believe, we become sons. (cf. Jn. 1:12)

As in the scriptures above, a man had two sons, one stayed home, one went out and had a "riotous living".

He came to his senses, and returned.

At what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?

As far as the father knew, the son was dead, but was found alive.

As far as the father knew, the son was lost, but is now found.

So here again, at what point did the son cease to be his fathers son?

Sure, we all sin, even after salvation we will sin sooner or later.

There is also:

"4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost." -Lk. 15:4-6 (KJV)

It is certainly possible for a Christian to "backslide".

But if we do, will Christ not come looking for us? If not, then the scriptures lie.

How many times in the OT did Israel "backslide"? It was so bad at one time God told them He divorced them.

"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;" -Jer. 3:8 (KJV)

So at what point did Israel cease to be God's people?

If you come to church, make a confession, get baptized, and leave the church and head right back out to the bar thinking you can live as you once did, and never live the lifestyle expected of Christians, then yes, OSAS is not true. It don't even apply to you, because you were never saved to begin with. (Cf. Mt. 13 and the parable of the sower)

However, if you are saved and just so happen to "backslide" we have the promise of Hebrews 12.

"5 My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." -Heb. 12:5-10 (KJV)

So at what time did the mans son cease to be his fathers son?

At what time does Christ cease to search out His own sheep?

At what time did Israel cease to be God's chosen people?

God Bless

Till all are one.

My question is about covared sin. Intentionaly sinning vs unintentional sin. Laviticus shows us intentional sin was not covered by blood sacrifice as well as the NT, after obtaining the knowledge there remans no sacrifice if we continue to sin. Also Jesus in Rev points out if we take advantage of Grace he will come quickly and not give us time to repent. In My words . not quotes,
I'm sure we are scripted . but I will be glad to give the versus.
I think the point is clear , if a man struggled with sin isn't that contrary to Gods promise that he won't give us more in temptation then we can handle?/ why then have justified sin? Sorry for my grammer

 

[lorimilne]

No, actually I got that.


Do you seriously believe that God needs to see one's works in order to know that they have faith?

Doesn't faith produce works?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please consider what this means then.

If departing from evil saves one's own soul, then the person who departs from evil is their own savior. How preposterous.

That would mean that Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. Again, just preposterous.

Have you really considered all the ramifications of your views?


What is the context for v.21? v.13-16, which is about temptations leading to sin.

v.21 teaches that by avoiding (laying apart) all filthiness and naughtiness, AND receiving the Word (God's instructions for living in righteousness) one is delivered, rescued, saved from such temptations.


So how does this verse fit into your theology?


The question that one needs to ask is: "to save from what?"


Did YOU catch that?


It is clear from all your posts that you do not believe that one is saved by faith. I get that. Even though Eph 2:8,9 totally refutes your misunderstanding of Scripture.

We are saved by grace (which you seem to have no understanding of) through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. These 2 verses totally refutes your views.


Your opinion does not change the facts.

Do you really think that most people think it's no big deal if others think of them as hypocrites? Even the Pharisees didn't want that. Which is why Jesus called them that so frequently, and why they hated Him so much.

The ONLY WAY a Christian can avoid (save himself) from the charge of being a hypocrite is to demonstrate their faith (live it out) in front of others.

Just because temptation leads to sin does not undo the fact that our souls are being saved in the manner that James suggests. James doesn't say you are saved from temptations. James essentially says that departing from evil saves your SOUL.

Also, I believe having a belief in Jesus is the foundation of our faith. For without it, we would not be saved to begin with or cleansed again if we faulter on the road of Sanctification. James says we are justified by works and not faith alone. So both are equally important.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please consider what this means then.

If departing from evil saves one's own soul, then the person who departs from evil is their own savior. How preposterous.

That would mean that Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. Again, just preposterous.

Have you really considered all the ramifications of your views?


What is the context for v.21? v.13-16, which is about temptations leading to sin.

v.21 teaches that by avoiding (laying apart) all filthiness and naughtiness, AND receiving the Word (God's instructions for living in righteousness) one is delivered, rescued, saved from such temptations.


So how does this verse fit into your theology?


The question that one needs to ask is: "to save from what?"


Did YOU catch that?


It is clear from all your posts that you do not believe that one is saved by faith. I get that. Even though Eph 2:8,9 totally refutes your misunderstanding of Scripture.

We are saved by grace (which you seem to have no understanding of) through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS. These 2 verses totally refutes your views.


Your opinion does not change the facts.

Do you really think that most people think it's no big deal if others think of them as hypocrites? Even the Pharisees didn't want that. Which is why Jesus called them that so frequently, and why they hated Him so much.

The ONLY WAY a Christian can avoid (save himself) from the charge of being a hypocrite is to demonstrate their faith (live it out) in front of others.

Also, as for believing that works also saves in addition to faith and your false claim against me in thinking that I believe a saint is one's own savior:

Well, I believe Jesus saves both in Justification (Believing in Jesus as one's savior and believing in his sacrificial death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and in Sanctification (Whereby Jesus does the good work in one's heart and life). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).

For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is the Lord that works within us (Philippians 2:13).

So a believer cannot boast in any good work because it is a fruit or evidence that one abides with God. For it is why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus.


...

 

[EmSw]

I said this:
"Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?"

Let me say, I believe and accept that promise more than you do. But Paul says God gives eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good. If you think one can live in sin and not obey His commands, I can positively say, he has not been given eternal life. His belief is just a vapor blowing in the wind. His belief is dead without good works. Just as the body is dead without the spirit, so is faith without works. What part of dead do you not understand?

This is an odd response to my comment. Again, my question was ignored. And the Pharisees thought they had eternal life in the SAME WAY your side thinks you have it; by being good. They did have the Law, but they rejected the ONLY WORK that leads to eternal life: the work of Christ on the cross paying the penalty for our sins.

So, a person who believes and desires to obey and do good works is not saved? Do you think he doesn't have eternal life? So much for your OSAS. Several on here do not think those who believe, obey, and do good works are saved. They think doing good is a ticket to hell. So, what are the conditions for OSAS? Are good works excluded?

Where does the Bible say their eternal life was revoked? It doesn't. They NEVER had it. That was Jesus' point. They were counting on their moral life to save them.

So, a person who just believes has eternal life, while those who live a moral life do not. Again, Paul disagrees with you in Romans 2. It is those who continue in doing good who are given eternal life.

And I am quite amazed at your question since the Bible very clearly states that the gifts of God are IRREVOCABLE, and your view is that the Pharisees had eternal life but it was revoked, even though eternal life is a gift of God.

Maybe you should read all of Romans 11 before assuming you know what verse 29 says. Do you even know what Paul was talking about in Romans 11? I do not hear you speaking of verses 21 and 22. Why is that? Because it shoots down your OSAS belief.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise YOU also will be cut off.

If one continues in evil, HE WILL BE CUT OFF, just like the natural branches. Now let's see you refute this Biblical teaching.

If anyone doesn't understand what I post, just ask. I'd be more than happy to clarify.

What you believe is from your heart. I will believe what the Bible says about being cut off and eternal life given to those who continue in doing good. Is that okay with you?

I don't like your sasrcasm one bit. For salvation, the Bible teaches faith alone. Why don't you accept Eph 2:9? "not by works, so that no one can boast."

However, you boast to this forum you have understanding and others don't.

You just keep missing the point. Human beings CANNOT see one's faith apart from what they do. God doesn't need to see deeds in order to see one's faith. He sees the heart.

Why do human beings need to see your faith? Are you trying to impress them? The Pharisees wanted people to see their faith; they wanted to be justified in the eyes of men. This is exactly your belief.

I said this:
"Why should anyone think Matt 23 has any direct relation to James? It doesn't. Jesus was pointing to the gross hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who did things for their OWN GLORY.

Aren't you seeking your own glory by wanting others to see how good you are? "Look here people, I have faith; just look at the good I am doing."

James' point was that Christians need to demonstrate their faith to others so that it can be seen by them. And to NOT be hypocrites.

James said nothing about demonstrating faith. You keep adding what isn't there.

So, James and Jesus were on the exact same page. But you missed it."

So, boasting is a part of your faith. Of course you get it, you understand, and I don't. Who needs works to boast? Even those with 'faith alone' can boast.

Just keep on missing the point. Jesus was speaking to UNSAVED Pharisees, who thought they had eternal life by their lifestyle. James was speaking to SAVED believers who needed to be encouraged to live out their faith before others.

When did God's chosen people, the Pharisees, lose their eternal life? When did they become unsaved? Why were the natural branches cut off from the root?

Which has nothing to do with loss of eternal life, as much as you'd like it to be that.

While he didn't use the word, his message clearly was about it.

It's sad that the clear subject of hypocrisy is not being discerned.

It's sad people have to add to the Bible to justify their beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doesn't faith produce works?

James' point is that it should. There is no guarantee in Scripture that it does.

Which is why we are commanded to produce works. It doesn't come naturally.

btw, there is a difference between works of the flesh and works of the Spirit. It may be the VERY SAME works, but the difference is whether the believer does the works from the filling of the Holy Spirit or whether they came from the "energy of the flesh".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just because temptation leads to sin does not undo the fact that our souls are being saved in the manner that James suggests. James doesn't say you are saved from temptations. James essentially says that departing from evil saves your SOUL.

If eternal salvation is obtained by departing from evil, then you are your own savior, and salvation is by works, essentially. Again, you have not done your homework as to the obvious conclusions of your theology, which is not biblical.

Also, I believe having a belief in Jesus is the foundation of our faith.

No, it's the only requirement for salvation.

For without it, we would not be saved to begin with or cleansed again if we faulter on the road of Sanctification. James says we are justified by works and not faith alone. So both are equally important....

James was NOT saying that God justifies on the basis of works.

His whole point of ch 2 is our behavior before others. It has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, actually I got that.

Do you seriously believe that God needs to see one's works in order to know that they have faith?

James 2:18 says,
"Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Let me give you an example.

If God said for you to believe that your antique show chair that was old and weak and could fall apart at the slightest touch was now strong enough for you to sit in it and you said "I believe you Lord" and yet you were still in doubt enough to actually sit in the chair and take a chance on hurting yourself, are you trusting God? In other words, your lack of action would show you really did not believe God.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Also, as for believing that works also saves in addition to faith and your false claim against me in thinking that I believe a saint is one's own savior:

Well, I believe Jesus saves both in Justification (Believing in Jesus as one's savior and believing in his sacrificial death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and in Sanctification (Whereby Jesus does the good work in one's heart and life).

Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus "does the good work" that leads to salvation.

For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).

I don't think you have understood this at all. It means He PAID IN FULL the debt of sin.

That alone refutes your theology about works. Only His work on the cross by paying the PENALTY of sin provides the gift of eternal life that must be received on the basis faith in Christ. NO WORKS INVOLVED on the part of humans.

For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is the Lord that works within us (Philippians 2:13).

And that is not talking about how to get saved. It was written to the already saved. The subject in these 2 verses is about fruit production, not salvation production.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. But your theology doesn't accept that promise. Why?"

Let me say, I believe and accept that promise more than you do.

That is NOT possible for anyone who thinks that they can lose salvation and perish.

But Paul says God gives eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good.

Then this indicates that God and His Son Jesus are contradictory to each other.

You keep misunderstanding Rom 2:6-8. The point of that is that only one who NEVER sinned could receive eternal life. And Paul was telling those who think like you do that it is impossible to do that. But one needs to read further in Romans to learn that.

If you think one can live in sin and not obey His commands, I can positively say, he has not been given eternal life.

Then obviously you have no concept of how one receives eternal life.

His belief is just a vapor blowing in the wind. His belief is dead without good works. Just as the body is dead without the spirit, so is faith without works. What part of dead do you not understand?

I'm not having any problem with understanding how the word "dead" is used.

So, a person who believes and desires to obey and do good works is not saved?

Why would anything think that morality saves anyone? The Bibles differently.

Do you think he doesn't have eternal life? So much for your OSAS. Several on here do not think those who believe, obey, and do good works are saved. They think doing good is a ticket to hell. So, what are the conditions for OSAS? Are good works excluded?

ANY kind of works are excluded in the issue of getting saved. The Bible says so here:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I really don't understand how the phrase "not by works" isn't getting through to some.

So, a person who just believes has eternal life, while those who live a moral life do not.

There you go. It's "not by works". It's by grace through faith. Period.

Again, Paul disagrees with you in Romans 2.

No, he disagrees with how some have twisted his words.

It is those who continue in doing good who are given eternal life.

For those who have continued to read what ELSE he wrote know that NO ONE can "continue in doing good".

It doesn't mean be good most of the time, or even some of the time. It means "ALL THE TIME". It means NO SIN. Which is impossible, given Rom 3:9 and 23.

Maybe you should read all of Romans 11 before assuming you know what verse 29 says.

lol Maybe you should read all of ch 3 before making the ridiculous argument about 2:6-8.

And Rom 11:29 is what is called a "blanket statement" since there is NO additional qualifications or limitations attached to the verse. So when Paul wrote that "God's gifts are irrevocable", it should be clear that he didn't mean "just some of them" or even "just most of them".

By NOT adding any exclusions, limitations or qualifications, he clearly meant ALL of them.

Do you even know what Paul was talking about in Romans 11? I do not hear you speaking of verses 21 and 22. Why is that? Because it shoots down your OSAS belief.

There is NOTHING in either ch 11 or in the ENTIRE book of Romans or ANYWHERE else in the Bible that shoots down eternal security.

If one continues in evil, HE WILL BE CUT OFF, just like the natural branches. Now let's see you refute this Biblical teaching.

Prove your theory that to be "cut off" means loss of salvation.

If that were true, then Paul just committed a HUGE contradiction in v.29, which is utterly nonsense.

What you believe is from your heart. I will believe what the Bible says about being cut off and eternal life given to those who continue in doing good. Is that okay with you?

Why would it be OK to believe false doctrine? But I understand that everyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe.

However, you boast to this forum you have understanding and others don't.

Please either cite a post # where I've "boasted" or issue an apology.

Why do human beings need to see your faith? Are you trying to impress them?

Why do you ask me? I didn't write the Bible. But I understand the Bible.

The Pharisees wanted people to see their faith; they wanted to be justified in the eyes of men.

They didn't HAVE any faith, but apparently you must have missed all that discussion in the gospels. Jesus repeatedly pointed out to the Pharisees that they were rejecting Him as Messiah. Why didn't you know that?

39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

This is exactly your belief.

This demonstrates a failure to understand my posts as much as a failure to understand Scripture.

Aren't you seeking your own glory by wanting others to see how good you are?

It has NEVER been about "wanting others to see how good you are". It's how others will see Christ-likeness in us. It's about being a living testimony for Christ.

"Look here people, I have faith; just look at the good I am doing."

This just demonstrates how badly you've twisted Scripture.

James said nothing about demonstrating faith. You keep adding what isn't there.

Apparently you're totally unfamiliar with James 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

What do you think was James' point here?

So, boasting is a part of your faith.

So, you've completely misunderstood (or intentionally twist) my posts.

Of course you get it, you understand, and I don't.

Your posts prove that you don't.

Who needs works to boast? Even those with 'faith alone' can boast.

Nope.

When did God's chosen people, the Pharisees, lose their eternal life?

More evidence of biblical ignorance. It wasn't the Pharisees who are God's chosen people. Why would anyone even think that? But it does demonstrate your unfamiliarity with Scripture.

And the Pharisees NEVER had eternal life, which was Jesus' point:
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5

When did they become unsaved?

They were NEVER saved. They were religious. They thought they could earn entrance into heaven. They were sadly mistaken.

Why were the natural branches cut off from the root?

The Bible tells us clearly:
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

If any of this means loss of eternal life, then Paul contradicted himself by writing v.29.

It's sad people have to add to the Bible to justify their beliefs.

Which is what those who think some can lose eternal life. They've added (or maybe subtracted is the better word) to Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

James 2:18 says,
"Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Let me give you an example.

If God said for you to believe that your antique show chair that was old and weak and could fall apart at the slightest touch was now strong enough for you to sit in it and you said "I believe you Lord" and yet you were still in doubt enough to actually sit in the chair and take a chance on hurting yourself, are you trusting God? In other words, your lack of action would show you really did not believe God....

What kind of confusion is this??

How can someone be "still in doubt enough to actually sin in the chair"?? By sitting IN the chair demonstrates one's FAITH IN the chair. So your example is confusion. It makes no sense.

But worse, why would you have God LIE anyway? How does that make sense?

Are you not aware of what Jesus said about faith as small as a mustard seed?
"He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Matt 17:20

I recommend your examples be in agreement with Scripture.

On further reading of your example, I see that you meant that one doubted what God promised about the chair. OK, so what?

Sitting IN the chair demonstrates one's faith. But if one doesn't sit in the chair because one "has doubts", then they really didn't have faith in what God promised.

So your example still fails.

btw, there can be many reasons why one might not sin in the chair, which has nothing to do with doubting God's promise.

Doubting God's promise means NO faith. But there might be reasons why one might not sit in the chair.

 

[-57]

Dear 57:

First, in my profile display in each of my posts, I list myself as "non-denominational"; And on my profile info page, I provided a link here at CF to a detailed lengthy "statement of faith."

Second, I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is God and that the Bible alone is our sole authority (and no other writings, or book, or oral tradition is acceptable). So this rules out the fact that I am a part of the two religions you are referring to (or any other religions that have a church name for that matter). I believe in house fellowship with other like minded Christians.

Three, proper Soteriology is neither Antinomianism nor Works Alone Salvationism. Salvation is Relationship-ism. Salvation is Jesus Christ and my hope is in Him. For it was my coming to Jesus (and being sorrowful in a Godly way) that cancels out my past sin debt (making my sins that were once scarlet washed clean as white as snow). Jesus saves me both in Justification (faith in Him and what He has done for me with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension) and Jesus saves me in Sanctification (In His working thru my life to walk as He walked). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (1 John 3:8).

Four, please address the verses I brought forth if you believe you are correct instead of attacking me.

Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

Jason.


...

The post did address the verse. Here it is again..."James is saying...you do because you are saved...it demonstrates your faith."...

To address your belief that works keep you saved...it sounds very cultish. Sorry if you disagree. It is my biblical understanding that when my sins were imputed to Christ ....ALL... of my sins were imputed. Past, present and future. Your post seemed to indicate just your past sins were paid for and Jesus requires you to do good to pay for your present and future sins.
Your claims are that OSAS is a license to sin...when it has been explained to you ad-nauseam...that it isn't. In James, pertaining to faith and works....as I said above "James is saying...you do because you are saved...it demonstrates your faith."

You ended your post with "With loving kindness to you in Christ"....emphasis on the "in Christ"
Did you know the bible says.....There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1.

One verse I do know that you know is that...no one can snatch you from Jesus hand.

 

[Freedom Now]

I don't think you have understood this at all. It means He PAID IN FULL the debt of sin.

This was your response to a scripture quoted ...
For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.. 1 John 3, 8


Let me ask you this, did your Jesus destroy the works of the devil ?

Or..

Did your Jesus only pay for the penalty of doing the works of the devil?



If Jesus only pays the penalty of you doing the works of the devil, then by that understanding

we can never be free from doing the works of the devil, and then I assume your Jesus

has to perpetually hang on the cross for that penalty.


If I were to believe ( living out faith) that my Jesus was manifested actually to destroy the
works of the devil ( not just the penalty of doing the works of the devil), then it is possible to
be freed from sin (Romans 6) or cease from sin (1 Peter 4).


But I can see your dilemma, if Jesus only paid the penalty. ...wow.

That would also mean a very powerless christian walk......since by faith you can not
overcome sin, as your Jesus has not destroyed the works of the devil.
I guess that would leave man with trying hard not to sin, trying hard to please God,
or right out just keep sinning, just like the rest of the world.


If this is the case, I can say with full assurance, that one has not come to faith in Christ yet,
and has not received eternal life yet.

I know it paints a very dim picture, but I hope none of you fall in this category.

 

[Geralt]

you misunderstood James 2 in this regard.

actually, if it does not come naturally then it is 'dead' faith - which is NOT faith at all.
there is no personality in dead people, they are dead. and so there is no real faith in dead faith- it is just dead.
there are not 2 kinds of faith, only faith. and this faith is alive NOT dead, and it results in works.

James' point is that it should. There is no guarantee in Scripture that it does.

Which is why we are commanded to produce works. It doesn't come naturally.

btw, there is a difference between works of the flesh and works of the Spirit. It may be the VERY SAME works, but the difference is whether the believer does the works from the filling of the Holy Spirit or whether they came from the "energy of the flesh".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please show where the Bible teaches that Jesus "does the good work" that leads to salvation.

Philippians 2:12-16
Hebrews 12:1-2
1 John 1:7 (cf. John 15:5-6 and Romans 11:22).


...

 

[EmSw]

Did you know the bible says.....There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1.

One verse I do know that you know is that...no one can snatch you from Jesus hand.

So, if Jesus vomits you out of His mouth, how are you still in Him?