Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[bcbsr]

Actually most Protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved here in America. It is the wide gate path type belief that has led many into living a lifestyle of sin while they also think they are loyal and loving towards God and in His good graces. It turns reality upside down about everything we know to be good and right. For in Eternal Security, one has to put ignore their moral compass in order to make such a wrong belief work. Yet, the Scriptures predicted that this time would come.

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).


....

Wrong! Your reject the idea of salvation being a free gift, making rather a matter of works, motivated out of fear of condemnation, which is the same doctrine as that of the circumcision. "All who rely on observing the law (like the 10 commandments) are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Ga 3:10

And you sin by committing slander. And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"? ——as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. Rom 3:8

Those who have been born of God don't continue to sin. John states that in 1JOhn 3:9, but you don't believe it because you don't believe the gospel and so you make up your own gospel - a gospel of performance based salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll ask you now, can a person live in sin and still be saved?

Yes, this is what he essentially said he believes (in one of our previous conversations).

Check out my post of my quoting his reply here (to see):

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong! Your reject the idea of salvation being a free gift, making rather a matter of works, motivated out of fear of condemnation, which is the same doctrine as that of the circumcision. "All who rely on observing the law (like the 10 commandments) are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Ga 3:10

First, life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilties in taking care of them. For if you do not take care of the gifts you have, you can allow them to be destroyed or lost. Your taking care of a gift does not undo the fact that it was a gift given to you in the first place.

Second, there are a couple of things you need to understand here (before you fall deeper into confusion about what I believe the Bible actually teaches):

#1. I believe Christ (God) ultimately does the good work in the believer (Philippians 2:13) (John 15:5). For the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus because it was Jesus working in them. This means a believer cannot boast in his own works alone but He can only give praise and glory to God for any good work done in his life by God. So this means, I cannot be charged with Works Salvationism. I believe Jesus saves both in Justification (Trusting in Jesus as one's Savior) and in Sanctification (In allowing Christ (God) to do the good work in my life when I surrender to Him in what His Word says).

#2. In the book of Romans and Galatians Paul was referencing the Law of Moses and not all Law whatsoever or those Laws under the New Covenant. Scripture does not say the Law is no more. Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Meaning Christians believe the Old Covenant Law has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and they seek to look to the New Covenant Commands to follow Jesus and they do not look to the Old Covenant Laws (Which would include the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.). Believers today follow the Commands in the New Testament (and not the Old Testament). However, if you believe you are not under any kind of Law or Command whatsoever, then you must believe that you are not under the Command or Law that tells you to believe in Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23). Surely that is not the case. Also, are you against the Law of Christ? (Galatians 6:2). Furthermore, Paul himself essentially said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

#3. In Romans and Galatians Paul was addressing the heresy of the Pharisee religion that turned salvation into a Works based system of salvation alone without any kind of Savior. Hence, why Paul talked the way he did against the Law. But Paul was not against the Law, for he himself said that we establish the Law by our faith (Romans 3:31).

And you sin by committing slander. And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"? ——as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. Rom 3:8

There are different levels of belief in Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security. The two most popular teachings are:

(a) You can sin as much as you want and be saved.
(b) You must generally live a holy life, but dying in one or two unrepentant sins does not mean you are not saved.

Both versions of Eternal Security above here teach one to ignore morality and turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV).

Those who have been born of God don't continue to sin. John states that in 1JOhn 3:9, but you don't believe it because you don't believe the gospel and so you make up your own gospel - a gospel of performance based salvation.

Yet, 1 John 3:10 says

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother"
(1 John 3:10).


....

 

[bcbsr]

#2. In the book of Romans and Galatians Paul was referencing the Law of Moses and not all Law whatsoever or those Laws under the New Covenant. Scripture does not say the Law is no more. Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Meaning Christians believe the Old Covenant Law has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ and they seek to look to the New Covenant Commands to follow Jesus and they do not look to the Old Covenant Laws (Which would include the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.). Believers today follow the Commands in the New Testament (and not the Old Testament). However, if you believe you are not under any kind of Law or Command whatsoever, then you must believe that you are not under the Command or Law that tells you to believe in Jesus Christ (1 John 3:23). Surely that is not the case. Also, are you against the Law of Christ? (Galatians 6:2). Furthermore, Paul himself essentially said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

#3. In Romans and Galatians Paul was addressing the heresy of the Pharisee religion that turned salvation into a Works based system of salvation alone without any kind of Savior. Hence, why Paul talked the way he did against the Law. But Paul was not against the Law, for he himself said that we establish the Law by our faith (Romans 3:31).

There are different levels of belief in Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security. The two most popular teachings are:

(a) You can sin as much as you want and be saved.
(b) You must generally live a holy life, but dying in one or two unrepentant sins does not mean you are not saved.

Both versions of Eternal Security above here teach one to ignore morality and turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV).

Yet, 1 John 3:10 says

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother"
(1 John 3:10).

....

You bear false witness against your neighbor. And not only so but also against the apostle Paul. In Gal 3:10 Paul says, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" Therefore he's saying the by "works of the law" his is referring to "all things written in the book of the law" and not simply some things as those of the Neo-Circumcision claim. And that would include the 10 commandments.

And in Romans 4 while you claim Paul limits "works" to ceremonial works (even though the Neo-Circumcision often themselves make salvation contingent upon ceremonial works), note that Paul is speaking generically of works - namely to work for your salvation. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4,5 No indication he's limiting he argument to certain ceremonial works.

And in quoting 1John 3:10 you overlooked 1John 3:9 (You really need some basic reading comprehension skills), where John indicates that those born of God live righteously because it's in their nature - not in order to maintain their salvation status as the Neo-Circumcision would have it.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Much as you view the gospel as a license for immorality and therefore as a basis for your unbelief, that's not what happens for those who actually believe it. But you wouldn't know anything about that.

 

[bcbsr]

Actually most Protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved here in America. It is the wide gate path type belief that has led many into living a lifestyle of sin while they also think they are loyal and loving towards God and in His good graces. It turns reality upside down about everything we know to be good and right. For in Eternal Security, one has to put ignore their moral compass in order to make such a wrong belief work. Yet, the Scriptures predicted that this time would come.

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).


....

Just like theological forefathers of the circumcision, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

So you tinker with the gospel, rejecting the grace of God, based upon your slanderous accusations, in order to make "Christians" behave by law and fear of condemnation which is the curse of the law, to enslave people to your theology.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So are you basically saying that we can ignore God's laws or minimize them and still be saved? Are you saying that we can do evil so that good may come?

If you believe you not under (or justified) by any Law, then you are not under (or justified) by the Law in 1 John 3:23, too.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, when Paul is speaking about those who seek to be justified by the Law have fallen from grace, Paul is addressing:

(a) The false Pharisee Religion whereby it wrongfully teaches that one can be justified by the Law alone without a Savior. In other words, this religion was all about law and no grace.

(b) The Old Covenant Law of Moses (Which compromised of 613 laws). This Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ and believers are to now obey those Commands in the New Covenant. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not what I say? (Luke 6:46). Can one not make Jesus their Lord and yet still be a part of His good Kingdom? Surely not. For God's people are good and not evil. Just as God is good and not evil.

For if one can think they can do evil and be in God's good graces then surely they are deceiving themselves. For basic morality should tell a person such a thing. If not, they need to get their moral compass fixed by the Lord.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll ask you now, can a person live in sin and still be saved?

The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?

Of course, the 'other side' doesn't understand anything. You are the one with all knowledge and understanding. Maybe you should be 'little messiah', you are so knowledgeable.

snippy, snippy, snippy. Did you miss your nap today?

 

[-57]

Your argument that no OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved, doesn't disprove OSAS, any more than saying "no Anti-OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved" disproves Anti-OSAS soteriology.

It's a strawman argument that those who have been born of God can continue to sin, seeing as the Bible says it doesn't occur. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

In contrast the Anti-OSAS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's involvment in religious ceremonies and makes salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance (which is to say, salvation by works). And while the majority of "Christians" today hold such a view point, I view such people, like yourself, as unbelievers - the Neo-Circumcision.

Interesting post....I don't really see either belief as a condition for salvation. In fact when most people get saved they have never even heard of either concept...it's only at a later date they typically learn their salvation is a one time can't lose it deal.

Others are sold a pack of lies and fall into the works routine. Even though their salvation was true upon their belief, their false doctrine of losing ones salvation won't cause them to lose their salvation....considering they are saved for eternity.

 

[-57]

The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?

Pretty much black and white.....or should I say as with some bibles, red and white.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just like theological forefathers of the circumcision, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4

So you tinker with the gospel, rejecting the grace of God, based upon your slanderous accusations, in order to make "Christians" behave by law and fear of condemnation which is the curse of the law, to enslave people to your theology.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

On the contrary, Paul says we establish the Law (Romans 3:31). Paul says faith does not make void the Law.


...

 

[EmSw]

Your argument that no OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved, doesn't disprove OSAS, any more than saying "no Anti-OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved" disproves Anti-OSAS soteriology.

Peter warns us against those who allure believers with words of emptiness, through lusts of the flesh, that is, sinning. These false prophets promise believers liberty, that is, they can do as they please having no relationship to salvation.

2 Peter 2
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

I admonish those who have escaped from those who live in error, to not listen to these false teachings.

It's a strawman argument that those who have been born of God can continue to sin, seeing as the Bible says it doesn't occur. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

That does not mean they can't go on sinning; perhaps you can give examples of anyone who believes that doesn't sin.

If you will continue to verse 10, we see who the children of the devil are.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The one who does not live righteously, is not of God. Since many on here say you do not have to live righteously in order to be saved, are deceiving many. Whoever does not practice righteousness is NOT born of God.

In contrast the Anti-OSAS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's involvment in religious ceremonies and makes salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance (which is to say, salvation by works). And while the majority of "Christians" today hold such a view point, I view such people, like yourself, as unbelievers - the Neo-Circumcision.

I say practice righteousness, as John told us, or you are not born of God. Do not let false prophets promise you life with words of emptiness.

bcbsr, how is it people can live in sin and be saved, but those who hold to righteous living are unbelievers?

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;

 

[EmSw]

The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?

Thank you. Now answer the question.

Can believers live in sin and still be saved?

snippy, snippy, snippy. Did you miss your nap today?

No lord FG2, I got my nap. Do you think that will help me understand things now?

 

[EmSw]

The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?

When does one receive eternal life?

Luke 18
29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

 

[-57]

When does one receive eternal life?

The moment you're born again.

 

[EmSw]

The moment you're born again.

So you ignored what Jesus said in Luke 18.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here is another point for Eternal Security Proponents to consider.

Question: How many times does “faith alone” occur in Scripture?

Answer: Only one time.

Here is the verse:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)​

It is true! In the one spot in all of God's Word that the words “faith alone” occurs, it is specifically rejected that it can save a person.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?"

Thank you.

Huh??! What kind of answer is that? That was no answer. That was just another dodge. Why? Not comfortable giving an answer?

Now answer the question.

Can believers live in sin and still be saved?

I've already answered that. If one disagrees, they are free to explain WHY my answer is unbiblical, if it is. So please, be my guest.

No lord FG2, I got my nap. Do you think that will help me understand things now?

Nope.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"The Bible says that when one receives eternal life, they WILL NEVER PERISH. I believe what Jesus promised. The question is: do you?"

When does one receive eternal life?

It's clear how much you don't like answering any questions. I wonder why.

I'll let Jesus answer your question, though.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24

So, please tell me, when did you think one receives eternal life.

Luke 18
29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

Are you able to discern between having something now vs experiencing it in the future?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is another point for Eternal Security Proponents to consider.

Question: How many times does “faith alone” occur in Scripture?

Answer: Only one time.

Is that why those who think that salvation can be lost ignore it?

Here is the verse:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)​

It is true! In the one spot in all of God's Word that the words “faith alone” occurs, it is specifically rejected that it can save a person. ...

Are you able to discern the difference between God's perspective and man's perspective?

It seems that you aren't.

From God's perspective, He doesn't need to see evidence of faith, for He is omniscient, unlike humanity.

But humans, who aren't omniscient, NEED to see evidence of faith. That is the point of James 2:18 -
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

The 'someone' DOES have faith, because he refers to it. But his point is that one CANNOT show their faith TO OTHERS apart from deeds.

Again, for those unfamiliar with the concept, God is omniscient and doesn't need to see evidence. He sees the heart.

But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Paul taught the same principle in 2 Cor 8-21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

James must be understood in this light: he was speaking about demonstrating one's faith in the eyes of men.

Consider the excellent example he gave in James 2:15,16 regarding 'dead faith'.

To say something without backing it up is hypocrisy. Believers who are hypocrites have a dead faith.

Did the cold and hungry people in the example of James 2:15,16 see any faith in the jerk hypocrite who passed by? Was the jerk justified in their eyes from what he said to them?

Of course not. That's James' point.