Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[Gabriel Anton]

I spent some time reading through this thread, to see if.......


But I have a question for all involved in this debate....

I have a close family member that became a christian 24 years ago, and I mean christian as in,
her life completely changed from SELFserving to seeking God in everything. In conduct and behavior
she was a model what christianity is all about, married, stayed home with the kids to raise them,
home schooled them, etc....
Now 2 years ago she cheated on her husband and shortly after moved in with new guy (not christian).
No interest in God anymore, I asked if she wanted prayer...no not interested.
Still officially married to this day to her husband and still living with other guy.

And before some say, she never really was a christian to start with, sorry she is family
and I know her well. Her christian walk was real.

My question for you is, .....
if this person were to die today, will she still have eternal life?

I would like good honest answers to this, preferably backed by scriptures.

Thank you

Peace be with you.

She'll burn.

7 The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.

8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"You mean, any more. Because, you have admitted that you did."

I think you took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

Your posts continue to make no sense.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I said this:
"You mean, any more. Because, you have admitted that you did."

Your posts continue to make no sense.

But that's what the teacher (in Scripture) told Jesus too
(about being born again).

 

[FreeGrace2]

As it appears that you are well studied on this subject, maybe you can answer my question in post 376.
Thank you for your time on this.

Because the Bible teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29 and previous to that in Romans Paul described both justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God, the answer is yes, she is saved.

While it may not be apparent to some or even all, I have no doubt that she is miserable inside. God knows better than all of us how to spank His wayward children. If she doesn't repent, she may well experience the sin unto death, or physical death, which may be quite severe.

Consider what Paul said about the incestuous guy in 1 Cor 5:5 - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I don't know about anyone else, but I can only imagine what satan would LOVE to do to such a one. If anyone knows HOW to destroy the flesh, just consider Job and what satan did to him. Not for the same reason as discipline, but the very same effect.

Those who deny eternal security always trivialize God's discipline that the Bible warns of, rather than loss of salvation. But the Bible does NOT trivialize God's discipline.

In fact, Heb 12:6 and 11 says: 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

So, God's discipline is PAINFUL, and designed to train His children to produce a harvest of righteousness. But not all of His children are trained. Those who persist will eventually experience the "sin unto death", mentioned in 1 Cor 11:30 and taught in 1 John 5:16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Second, the fact that you are responding (with no moral awareness) to my picture of a dog (who is in shock) as a reply to 57's statement means you truly do not understand where I am coming from.

What is clear is that your views are not in line with Scripture.

For what you do not understand is that God's grace is not greasy grace.

What gives anyone the silly notion that I think that God's grace is greasy?

What you do not understand is that God does not condone evil or willful rebellion done against Him.

What you do not understand is that I've been posting that repeatedly. But He doesn't react to evil or willful rebellion by taking away anyone's salvation. Such action indicates NO GRACE at all. So it is your view that doesn't understand grace.

For God to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that they could sin and still be saved is impossible because God is holy and just.

The wrong thinking is that a believer can lose his or her salvation for any reason. God's gifts are irrevocable, but your view denies that. And eternal life is a gift of God. Therefore, the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. What is wrong thinking is to deny that obvious conclusion.

This is important to understand because a believer is supposed to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Now, would Jesus ever think that He could sin and still be saved? No. So neither should we....

Just more wrong thinking here. Why in the world would Jesus EVEN think of "still being saved"???? Did He need to be saved?? Of course not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Peace be with you.

She'll burn.

7 The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son.

8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

God bless you.

Wrong. She won't burn because of having received eternal life, a gift of God that is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29

And Jesus said this: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

 

[-57]

Everyone has the free will choice to accept or reject Christ in this life;


...

Sorry...You're wrong.

Why? simple.....what is your choice based upon?

 

[-57]

According to your understanding, this person has eternal life, right?

If that is so, would the saved that live in sin when they die, will they......

spent eternal life in heaven?
or
will they spend eternal life in the lake of fire?

I think all the saved christians live in sin to one degree or another. If they person was truly saved, and for the sake of this debate they truly were....they will spend eternity in heaven.

 

[-57]

First, I already explained to you before several times that Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life (1 John 5:12) (1 TImothy 6:16) (John 14:6) (John 6:35), and Jesus is a person's gift (2 Corinthians 9:15 cf. John 3:16). I also said to you before several times that real life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilties. For example: In the parable of the pearl of great price, the man sold all that he had just to obtain it (Matthew 13:45-46). If he did not want to be responsible with the gift that he discovered, he could have just done nothing. Anyways, Jesus is our pearl of great price. Jesus is our treasure. (Luke 9:23 cf. Matthew 10:39, Matthew 19:27, Matthew 19:29, Luke 19:8-9). I also said to you several times that I agree that God's gifts are irrevocable but these gifts are irrevocable under the set conditions that God sets. We know God does not cancel on his promises or gifts, but God's promises or gifts come with certain conditions or terms per the contract agreement. If a person breaks that agreement or contract that is on them and not on God. God's promises or gifts are still true and irrevocable if you keep to the terms of the agreement. For example: In Deuteronomy 31:6, it says God will not forsake His people, but in Deuteronomy 31:16-17 God will forsake his people on account of their unfaithfulness. In other words, one has to look at other verses in Scripture to get the whole story. Please stop repeating the same questions. I have answered this for you before already many times.

Second, the fact that you are responding (with no moral awareness) to my picture of a dog (who is in shock) as a reply to 57's statement means you truly do not understand where I am coming from. For what you do not understand is that God's grace is not greasy grace. What you do not understand is that God does not condone evil or willful rebellion done against Him. He never has and He never will. God is good and He is not evil. For God to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that they could sin and still be saved is impossible because God is holy and just. This is important to understand because a believer is supposed to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Now, would Jesus ever think that He could sin and still be saved? No. So neither should we.

...

The following was quoted from your post..."For God to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that they could sin and still be saved is impossible because God is holy and just."

....Once again you have condemned yourself to eternity in hell Jason. You sin everyday. If you deny you sin everyday then you are guilty of the sin of fibbing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry...You're wrong.

Why? simple.....what is your choice based upon?

Well, what you are proposing doesn't make any sense. For example: If Bob desired Rick to drink out of a bucket of water so as to help quench his thirst from walking in the long dry dessert, Bob would not need force Rick to drink of the water. Bob would not need to shove Rick's head into the water and put a gun to his head telling him to drink. Neither would Bob need to play a jedi mind trick on Rick in taking away his free will so as to force him to act against his normal free will choice to drink of the water (regardless of his desires). In other words, just because Bob desires Rick to drink of the water does not mean Rick does not have a free will choice in the matter to either say "yes" or "no" to it. Nor was it Bob's exclusive choice or will for Rick's life to drink of the water just because Rick decided of his own free will choice to drink of it. Yes, God has a will and plan for our life that is good and righteous, but if we say.... "no" to it, that would not be in line with what He would want (Even though God can still use such a person for his plan and purposes). God would never want a person to sin or to perish. God is good and He desires all people to be saved. To say so otherwise means God wants some to sin so as to be specifically punished. To me, that sounds purposely cruel and vindictive.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The following was quoted from your post..."For God to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that they could sin and still be saved is impossible because God is holy and just."

....Once again you have condemned yourself to eternity in hell Jason. You sin everyday. If you deny you sin everyday then you are guilty of the sin of fibbing.

Again, you are not God to be able to know my heart, mind, and life. You do not know if I sin every day. You are merely making a false assumption. Besides, it is possible to stop sinning according to the Scriptures. How so? Well, the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry...You're wrong.

Why? simple.....what is your choice based upon?

God said to Cain,

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7).​

Sure sounds to me like man has a free will choice when it comes between choosing to sin vs. doing what is right.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is clear is that your views are not in line with Scripture.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

What gives anyone the silly notion that I think that God's grace is greasy?

I was not referring to Biblical Grace but I was referring to Eternal Security's version of grace.

Just more wrong thinking here. Why in the world would Jesus EVEN think of "still being saved"???? Did He need to be saved?? Of course not.

You know, you are actually right. Jesus is God and He would never have to worry about even sinning because it was not possible for Him. But you are missing the point, though. If a believer (like yourself) agrees with the idea that it is okay to sin and still be saved, then Jesus cannot agree with such thinking on such a concept because we are to have the mind of Christ.


...

 

[EmSw]

Because the Bible teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29 and previous to that in Romans Paul described both justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God, the answer is yes, she is saved.

While it may not be apparent to some or even all, I have no doubt that she is miserable inside. God knows better than all of us how to spank His wayward children. If she doesn't repent, she may well experience the sin unto death, or physical death, which may be quite severe.

Consider what Paul said about the incestuous guy in 1 Cor 5:5 - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Since you agree you can live in sin, do you think you should be delivered to Satan to destroy your flesh?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, you are not God to be able to know my heart, mind, and life. You do not know if I sin every day.

It doesn't matter about the frequency of sinning. You have admitted that you have not yet reached your fantasy condition of sinless perfection, and yet you still consider yourself saved. So your charges demonstrate an obvious hypocrisy.

You are merely making a false assumption. Besides, it is possible to stop sinning according to the Scriptures. How so? Well, the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts....

As if 1 John 1:8 doesn't exist, huh. "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

So...when one thinks they have arrived at that state of sinless perfection, 1 Jn 1:8 will PERFECTLY apply to them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"What is clear is that your views are not in line with Scripture."

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I haven't just said it. I have proved it from Scripture.

I was not referring to Biblical Grace but I was referring to Eternal Security's version of grace.

Who gave you the right to speak on behalf of those with whom you disagree? The whole problem with the loss of salvation view is it's total LACK of grace, which demonstrates the fact that God's grace isn't even being understood.

You know, you are actually right. Jesus is God and He would never have to worry about even sinning because it was not possible for Him. But you are missing the point, though. If a believer (like yourself) agrees with the idea that it is okay to sin and still be saved,

OK, let's just stop there. I've NEVER said it's "ok" to sin. Ever. So STOP the nonsense.

God gave us 1 Jn 1:9 precisely because we will sin. It's NOT ok to sin. Got it?

But as long as your mind is closed to what I actually say, there is no point in having this discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Because the Bible teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29 and previous to that in Romans Paul described both justification (3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God, the answer is yes, she is saved."

Since you agree you can live in sin, do you think you should be delivered to Satan to destroy your flesh?

Where did I EVER say that one can "live in sin"?? Why don't you actually read my posts?

Further, your comments to what I said demonstrate a very warped sense of understanding. The FACT that eternal life is an irrevocable gift doesn't conclude that one can "live in sin" without consequences. Such an idea is warped.

What is obvious is that the meaning of "live in sin" isn't being understood by your side.

The man who was having sex with his step-mother was "living in sin". Got it?

To "live in sin" means to be habitually sinning. It could be lying; we all know people who lie habitually. Or getting drunk regularly. Or gossiping regularly.

 

[EmSw]

Where did I EVER say that one can "live in sin"?? Why don't you actually read my posts?

I'll ask you now, can a person live in sin and still be saved?

What is obvious is that the meaning of "live in sin" isn't being understood by your side.

The man who was having sex with his step-mother was "living in sin". Got it?

To "live in sin" means to be habitually sinning. It could be lying; we all know people who lie habitually. Or getting drunk regularly. Or gossiping regularly.

Of course, the 'other side' doesn't understand anything. You are the one with all knowledge and understanding. Maybe you should be 'little messiah', you are so knowledgeable.

"Thank you God that I am not like these who have no understanding."

 

[bcbsr]

Your argument that no OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved, doesn't disprove OSAS, any more than saying "no Anti-OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved" disproves Anti-OSAS soteriology.

It's a strawman argument that those who have been born of God can continue to sin, seeing as the Bible says it doesn't occur. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

In contrast the Anti-OSAS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's involvment in religious ceremonies and makes salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance (which is to say, salvation by works). And while the majority of "Christians" today hold such a view point, I view such people, like yourself, as unbelievers - the Neo-Circumcision.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your argument that no OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved, doesn't disprove OSAS, any more than saying "no Anti-OSAS Christians who continue to sin are saved" disproves Anti-OSAS soteriology.

It's a strawman argument that those who have been born of God can continue to sin, seeing as the Bible says it doesn't occur. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

In contrast the Anti-OSAS ends up making salvation contingent upon one's involvment in religious ceremonies and makes salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance (which is to say, salvation by works). And while the majority of "Christians" today hold such a view point, I view such people, like yourself, as unbelievers - the Neo-Circumcision.

Actually most Protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved here in America. It is the wide gate path type belief that has led many into living a lifestyle of sin while they also think they are loyal and loving towards God and in His good graces. It turns reality upside down about everything we know to be good and right. For in Eternal Security, one has to put ignore their moral compass in order to make such a wrong belief work. Yet, the Scriptures predicted that this time would come.

1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).


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