Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please provide the meaning of the Greek word for 'believe'."

You want to understand Greek?

Apparently you don't understand my very simple and direct question.

You barely understand believe in English.

Since I've never defined it for you, how do you know what I understand?
How about backing up your pejorative claim with some facts?

Just believe the way you like. You'll feel good and secure about your salvation.

God bless you.

Your extremely rude, snotty and condescending comments belies your apparently flippant "God bless you" comments. Might as well refrain since it's clear it's just a phrase to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Peace be with you.

1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property.

2 He retained for himself, with his wife's knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles.

3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?

4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God."

5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.

6 The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.

7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, unaware of what had happened.

8 Peter said to her, "Tell me, did you sell the land for this amount?" She answered, "Yes, for that amount."

9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen, the footsteps of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out."

10 At once, she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men entered they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.

These verses show that even if you have the Holy Spirit, you can sin. Those 2 were terminated for their sins. I don't see Peter being sorrowful over them and assuring everybody those 2 were saved and are in Heaven. If they were all sealed with the Holy Spirit and saved, why did great fear fall upon the whole church?

A rather naive question, imo. It is quite normal human reaction to avoid physical death. They died what John the apostle called the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16 and Paul warned about in 1 Cor 11:30 for those who abuse the Lord's Table.

Why would Peter need to be "sorrowful over them" because they lied to God and were disciplined for it?

Your questions reveal quite a bit about your knowledge of the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet it's not in the Bible. Or anything close to it. So why provide what isn't applicable or relevant to Scripture??

Jesus did not reject the parable that the Canaanite woman made. Also, the spirit of Jesus lives in the hearts of believers today in our world (where cars exist). Jesus is the head of the church and the church is the body (i.e. believers are the vessels or temple of Christ).

Why hold examples of life, which may be quite flawed, to Scripture itself?

Because Jesus and the Canaanite woman used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. Parables are primarily used to hide the truth from unbelievers but they can also be used so as to see if someone is teaching the truth or not. For Jesus lives and operates in the real world and not a fictional one.

To make your example resemble biblical principles, here goes:

A father gifts a car to his son, and puts it in his name, and pays the insurance for the life of the car. Regardless of what the son does to the car, it belongs to the son. That is grace. That is missing from the teaching of loss of salvation.

Oh, and, btw, please don't bother messing up my example with some thought that the son could either:
sell the car
give it away
lose it in some vast parking lot
etc, etc, etc

Why persist in these totally irrelevant examples, that none of which even come close to the gift of eternal life, which the Bible indicates is irrevocable.

So? They are irrelevant to the biblical concept of the gift of eternal life, which is irrevocable.

So your basically saying that there is no real world example that can be made. Then why did you make a parable out of it to begin with? Your parable of the father buying the car for his son does not apply because it has to ignore other things within the real world. Yet, Jesus did not do this.

For Jesus said,
"It is not right to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs."

And she [the Canaanite woman] said,
"True, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

(Matthew 15:26-27).

The HUGE difference between your examples and the parables of Jesus is that Jesus' parables ALL taught biblical truth. None of yours does.

No. I have no problem creating parables that takes into account all of reality like Jesus's parables. This is what you cannot do with Eternal Security because it is a belief that is not based on the real world. It has to ignore morality that is a part of our world in order to make such a wrong concept work.

Believers are righteous ONLY because God has IMPUTED the righteousness of Christ to them. No other reason. This verse has NOTHING to do with lifestyle or behavior.

1 John 3:17 says,
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please show ANY verse that tells us that God the Father will take back His gift of eternal life for any reason.
The problem with your view is that there are no such verses, as we all know."

I am getting totally fed up with this continual denial of warning verses in the NT!

And I have getting totally fed up with continual LIE that I am or have denied ANY of the warning verses in the NT. So stop it already.

I've already explained what they are warning about. It's you choice whether to believe it or not. But there are consequences for believing FALSE DOCTRINE.

And I just asked a very simple and direct question for those who think that eternal life isn't a permanent gift. And instead of providing ANY kind of support for your claims, you begin yet another tirade which is totally false.

He refuses to deal with them, but instead denies their existence.

Either you haven't read any of my posts, or this is just another direct LIE. You tell me which it is. You're either ignorant of what I actually post, or you don't care and throw out lies about what I post.

He is teaching false doctrine, and this can be a great hindrance to babes in Christ.
This guy should be banned for purposely mis-representing what the NT teaches.

Wow. Talk about misrepresenting what I post!!

And if this travesty is not stopped, I'm outta here ...

The travesty is the failure of those who think salvation can be lost to ignore all the verses used by OSAS for their position. No one can tell me what they teach, if not OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean people are allowed to continually lie
about what the NT clearly teaches?

Just look at your own false charges about my posts. I've answered EVERY verse that you've posted and shown how it does NOT teach loss of salvation.

Yet you've not returned the favor and explained ANY of the verses I've posted that I believe teach OSAS very clearly.

You've ignored my verses, but I've NOT ignored your verses.

IMO, it's just not possible to be that blind ... thus it's done on purpose!

I'm convinced that your false charges are done on purpose.

Verses on both sides of the OSAS question are obvious!

Then it appears that you believe that both sides are right??? If that were true, the Bible is unreliable and contradicted. And God is not God.

But, some people lie and say there's only the OSAS side.

There is only right and wrong. And the issue of salvation is either OSAS or LOS. And the Bible clearly states OSAS. Not LOS. Which has been shown repeatedly.

As for me, I won't put up with it any longer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

yeshuaslavejeff said: ↑
Yes, only we can't say "lie" and neither can the "other side" .
Even other faiths are allowed to say what they want,
and unbelievers, agnostics, atheists, and so on - basically anyone.
Why does this seem "NEW" to you - it's been for years this way .

Did I say it was "NEW" to me?

Of course it's not new to you. Yet you continue to propagate false charges when I've been crystal clear. And you know better.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
I'll make this very clear. Answer the questions.

Does the Bible say that God's gifts are irrevocable? Yes. Rom 11:29

Yet, nowhere does Romans 11:29 says that all of God's gifts are without certain conditions.

The very FACT that nowhere in Romans did Paul exclude the specific gifts of justification and eternal life proves that they are both INCLUDED in the irrevocable gifts.

Further, there are no verses that teach that ANY of God's gifts are revocable.

That is something that you are impressing upon this verse that does not exist. Yes, it is true, God's gifts are irrevocable but God's gifts are irrevocable (cannot be undone) in context or in view of the conditions God sets.

You're applying some general principle to a very specific passage. Doesn't fly. The Bible SAYS that eternal life is a gift of God. The Bible also says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

It is beyond unreasonable to claim that eternal life is revocable. Kinda like calling "up" "down".

For example, Deuteronomy 31:6 says God will not forsake his people if they are faithful to him. Yet, in Deuteronomy 31:16-17 we learn God will forsake his people because they went after other gods (Which is a sin). Two different truths expressed in the same chapter (of which they have to be read together so as to get the whole truth on the matter).

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with God's GIFTS being irrevocable.

In fact, we know that God can cut off believers today. He tells us this in the same chapter of Romans 11. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off.

So prove that "cut off" means loss of salvation. Go ahead. I've already given the meaning of it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"The biblical concept of grace means that all our sins have been paid for. The Bible says that "Christ died for our sins".

What does that mean for the one who teaches loss of salvation?"

But you have to ignore morality or God's goodness in order to make your line of reasoning work here....

Once again you've completely ignored my question to you. Dodge ball.

Your claim needs to be explained before I'll even consider such nonsense. My view or "line of reasoning" absolutely does NOT ignore morality.

So please, 'splain yourself. It's getting rather old to read your complaints that are missing any kind of explanation.

Anyone can complain. Take it up to the next level by explaining specifically how your complaints are legit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Yet it's not in the Bible. Or anything close to it. So why provide what isn't applicable or relevant to Scripture??"

Jesus did not reject the parable that the Canaanite woman made.

What in the world does this have to do with your very poor example that has no bearing on the truth of Scripture??

Also, the spirit of Jesus lives in the hearts of believers today in our world (where cars exist). Jesus is the head of the church and the church is the body (i.e. believers are the vessels or temple of Christ).

Could you please provide some application so that your line of reasoning can be followed.

Because Jesus and the Canaanite woman used real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth. Parables are primarily used to hide the truth from unbelievers but they can also be used so as to see if someone is teaching the truth or not. For Jesus lives and operates in the real world and not a fictional one.

Your views are not from the truth of Scripture. They are fictional. Which has been explained very clearly.

So your basically saying that there is no real world example that can be made. Then why did you make a parable out of it to begin with?[/QUOTE]
I truly wish you'd actually read what I post. I took your poor example and changed it to show the truth of Scripture.

Your parable of the father buying the car for his son does not apply because it has to ignore other things within the real world.

Again, this is just flat wrong. A father is fee to give whatever he has the means to give to a son and totally without strings. But it's clear that you'd just rather ignore that detail.

That's what Paul was teaching in Romans about God's gifts and eternal life. There are NO STRINGS attached to the gift of eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked this:
I'll make this very clear. Answer the questions.

Does the Bible say that God's gifts are irrevocable? Yes. Rom 11:29

Well, if you were to go back and read my previous post, I said, "Yes." God's gifts are irrevocable but I also said that Romans 11:29 cannot be read with the assumption (that you are making) that there are no conditions attached to God's gifts. Scripture makes it clear that there are conditions attached to the gift of God's grace. A believer today can break the New Covenant just as a believer back in the past can break the Old Covenant (See Deuteronomy 31:6, Deuteronomy 31:16-17, Hebrews 10:26-29, and Romans 11:21-22).

The very FACT that nowhere in Romans did Paul exclude the specific gifts of justification and eternal life proves that they are both INCLUDED in the irrevocable gifts

Please show which verses you are talking about. Thank you.

Further, there are no verses that teach that ANY of God's gifts are revocable.

Again, God's gifts are irrevocable in the context of the conditions that He lays out.

There is no reward for the wicked (i.e. those who act wickedly).

"For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out" (Proverbs 24:20).

As for true believers, Scripture says,

11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sensibly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
(Titus 2:11-12).

...

 

[ZacharyB]

God is not a respecter of persons

Yeah, I know this is in the Bible, but try on Romans 9 ...
where God creates some for His glory and some for destruction.
Great topic to be researched.
All through the Bible, God says:
I will bless who I want to, and I will curse who I want to.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I asked this:
"The biblical concept of grace means that all our sins have been paid for. The Bible says that "Christ died for our sins".

What does that mean for the one who teaches loss of salvation?"

Once again you've completely ignored my question to you. Dodge ball.

Please stop accusing me falsely. It is not nice. I have already answered this before with you several times.

Here and here are a few places where I have already answered this for you.

Your claim needs to be explained before I'll even consider such nonsense. My view or "line of reasoning" absolutely does NOT ignore morality.

So please, 'splain yourself. It's getting rather old to read your complaints that are missing any kind of explanation.

Anyone can complain. Take it up to the next level by explaining specifically how your complaints are legit.

Eternal Security does ignore morality because it allows one to think they can sin (i.e. do evil) with the thinking they will be rewarded with entering God's Kingdom. For in the Eternal Security it falsely teaches against the Bible's clear teaching on how sin can separate you from God.


...

 

[-57]

Eternal Security does ignore morality because it allows one to think they can sin (i.e. do evil) with the thinking they will be rewarded with entering God's Kingdom. For in the Eternal Security it falsely teaches against the Bible's clear teaching on how sin can separate you from God.


...

Eternal security believers believe this...


1st Cor 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise master builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.

I trust you stand corrected.

 

[Kaleb5000]

“For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/gal.5.13.esv


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Freedom Now]

I spent some time reading through this thread, to see if.......


But I have a question for all involved in this debate....

I have a close family member that became a christian 24 years ago, and I mean christian as in,
her life completely changed from SELFserving to seeking God in everything. In conduct and behavior
she was a model what christianity is all about, married, stayed home with the kids to raise them,
home schooled them, etc....
Now 2 years ago she cheated on her husband and shortly after moved in with new guy (not christian).
No interest in God anymore, I asked if she wanted prayer...no not interested.
Still officially married to this day to her husband and still living with other guy.

And before some say, she never really was a christian to start with, sorry she is family
and I know her well. Her christian walk was real.

My question for you is, .....
if this person were to die today, will she still have eternal life?

I would like good honest answers to this, preferably backed by scriptures.

Thank you

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, if you were to go back and read my previous post, I said, "Yes." God's gifts are irrevocable but I also said that Romans 11:29 cannot be read with the assumption (that you are making) that there are no conditions attached to God's gifts.

OK, I'll take this as an admission that you have no grasp of what it means to be irrevocable.

Scripture makes it clear that there are conditions attached to the gift of God's grace.

Please provide any verse that attaches conditions to grace. Again, this is just another admission that you have no grasp of what grace means.

Further, the Bible NEVER calls grace a gift. The Bible is specific: justification, eternal life, salvation and the indwelling Holy Spirit are gifts of God.

I said this:
"The very FACT that nowhere in Romans did Paul exclude the specific gifts of justification and eternal life proves that they are both INCLUDED in the irrevocable gifts"

Please show which verses you are talking about. Thank you.

This reveals why there is no progress in any discussion with you. Your request demonstrates that my statement was not understood at all.

When I posted "that nowhere in Romans did Paul exclude the specific gifts of justification and eternal life", I was meaning that there are NO verses that exclude these gifts from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

So asking for which verses I'm talking about is absurd. There are NO verses that speak of either justification or eternal life being excluded from the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

However, I suppose you've not read any of my posts, and therefore haven't seen the verses in Romans where Paul describes both justification and eternal life are gifts of God.

So, hopefully, this will be read:

In Romans 3:24, justification is a gift. In 5:15,16,17, justification is also described as a gift.

In Rom 6:23 eternal life is described as a gift of God.

In neither of these passages does Paul include any kind of exclusion statement about being revocable. And there is NO exception listed in 11:29 either.

Again, God's gifts are irrevocable in the context of the conditions that He lays out.

Please show any clear Scripture that addresses the revocability of the gift of eternal life.

There is no reward for the wicked (i.e. those who act wickedly).

Why does this have anything to do with loss of salvation??

It's a statement about loss of reward for God's wicked children.

"For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out" (Proverbs 24:20).

OK

As for true believers, Scripture says,

11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sensibly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"
(Titus 2:11-12)....

Where does either verse speak of loss of salvation based on ANY REASON?

What continues to be MISSING from the teaching of loss of salvation is ANY proof that salvation or eternal life can be taken back, removed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please stop accusing me falsely. It is not nice. I have already answered this before with you several times.

Here and here are a few places where I have already answered this for you.

The first 'here' was post 1001 in the thread "The lie of eternal security refuted once for all" which I refuted soundly in post 1003.

The second 'here' was post 2963 in the thread "Logical Problems with Calvinism", and was soundly refuted in post 2966.

Eternal Security does ignore morality because it allows one to think they can sin (i.e. do evil) with the thinking they will be rewarded with entering God's Kingdom.

Unless you can prove that I've EVER suggested such nonsense, this is a LIE period. I've NEVER EVER said that a sinful life will be rewarded. In fact, I've posted many times that sinful believers will LOSE reward, which is what all the warning passages are about.

But you keep demonstrating a total unfamiliarity with anything I post. And I will call you out every time that is done.

For in the Eternal Security it falsely teaches against the Bible's clear teaching on how sin can separate you from God.

Again, I've repeatedly posted that sin separates us from FELLOWSHIP with God.

 

[EmSw]

OK, I'll take this as an admission that you have no grasp of what it means to be irrevocable.

Please provide any verse that attaches conditions to grace. Again, this is just another admission that you have no grasp of what grace means.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

The grace you are spouting does not teach this. It teaches a man can live in sin and enjoy it. Maybe you should actually know what Biblical grace teaches before you tell others about your pseudo grace.

 

[-57]

I spent some time reading through this thread, to see if.......


But I have a question for all involved in this debate....

I have a close family member that became a christian 24 years ago, and I mean christian as in,
her life completely changed from SELFserving to seeking God in everything. In conduct and behavior
she was a model what christianity is all about, married, stayed home with the kids to raise them,
home schooled them, etc....
Now 2 years ago she cheated on her husband and shortly after moved in with new guy (not christian).
No interest in God anymore, I asked if she wanted prayer...no not interested.
Still officially married to this day to her husband and still living with other guy.

And before some say, she never really was a christian to start with, sorry she is family
and I know her well. Her christian walk was real.

My question for you is, .....
if this person were to die today, will she still have eternal life?

I would like good honest answers to this, preferably backed by scriptures.

Thank you

The answer is ...yes. Yes she is still saved.

Scripture:
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[-57]

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

The grace you are spouting does not teach this. It teaches a man can live in sin and enjoy it. Maybe you should actually know what Biblical grace teaches before you tell others about your pseudo grace.

EmSw, you live in sin everyday. Often you enjoy it. If you deny what I have just said, then you are sinning by lying.