Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[FreeGrace2]

I just did. 1 Timothy 6:16 tells us that Jesus alone has immortality. Immortality is eternal life.

And the Bible tells us that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23. And that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

And Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life in John 5:24. And He also said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

How in the world can anyone believe the teaching of loss of salvation with such clear verses?

You have to realize that gifts in the real world need to be taken care of or otherwise you can lose those gifts.

It seems you've either flatly rejected the teaching of Rom 11:29 or you just don't understand it.

For example: If you receive a car as a gift, that does not mean you can run red lights, and drive drunk.

What's to stop one?

As for Romans 11:29: As I said to you before, this is spoken to unsaved Israel. It is saying how God's gifts and CALLING of God (that come with conditions) are unchangeable.

This is just an attempt to distort Scripture. There are NO conditions listed in the verse that teaches that God's gifts are irrevocable. Therefore, ALL of them are irrevococable.

You are merely reading into that verse that there are no conditions to the receiving of God's gift and His calling.

Because of what 11:29 means, the ONLY WAY there would be exceptions would be IF Paul listed them THEN, to clarify that NOT ALL God's gifts are irrevocable.

But since Paul did NOT provide any exceptions, there are NONE.

How do you relate God's morality or goodness with Eternal Security?
I just cannot reconcile the two.

I've seen a number of things that your view cannot reconcile with Scripture.

We are saved (receive eternal life) by GRACE through faith, not of works.

It is clear that your views cannot be reconciled with Scripture.

I see the vast majority of Eternal Security as justifying evil (of which God cannot agree with).

This indicates a serious vision problem.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then why would the author of Hebrews say this to the unsaved Hebrews?

The entire epistle was written to saved Hebrews. So he didn't say that to unsaved Hebrews.

In other words, why would the author of Hebrews tell his audience to exhort one another daily unless they be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin?

Because that was possible. Just like it is today.

Why would the author of Hebrews say WE to his audience that they need to hold stedfast their confidence until the end so as to be made partakers of Christ? Would not the We include the author?

Yes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pursue...sanctification without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

"For this is the will of God [i.e. the will of the Father], your sanctification." (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

...

So these verses somehow "trump" every verse I've shown that teaches eternal security??

Yeah, right. In fact, it is clear to me how much of Scripture isn't being understood at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, verse 27 is the context of the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of Jesus's hand.

The context for "sheep" isn't v.27, but WAY back to v.1 and is fully clarified in v.7 and 9 -
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

To "enter through Me" means to believe in Christ as Savior. That's the context for 10:28 and who receive eternal life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps reading Galatians would be helpful - it is a strong warning to BELIEVERS about those trying to dissuade them from the truth in Yeshua.

Hebrews likewise, a wonderful word breathed (inspired) from Yhwh to BRETHREN(believers immersed in Yeshua) AMONGST whom some might fall short (like today, galatians, the churches in Revelation, etc etc )
and
likewise a warning, a clarification of faith , a great exhortation and description of truth that most 'churches' miss today (and through history).

To Jewish Brethren. The author is Jewish.

See - even you call them "Brethren". (And Hebrews actually is rich truth for "goy" also, the Jews first, and then the gentiles (like the whole of Scripture) ).
Here's some more from Wuest >>>>
(He believed SOME of the Jews might fall short of obtaining Salvation (like MOST gentiles fall short TODAY)(so it is a valid message and good warning TODAY, here and now) )>>


Here's a couple excerpts from http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_312-13.htm

Wuest comments that the writer of Hebrews "fears lest some should come short of rest in Christ and die in their sins as the generation that came out of Egypt came short of rest in Canaan and died a physical death in the wilderness because they did not appropriate the land by faith (Heb 4:1, 2).

Wuest - This evil heart of unbelief of which the writer speaks, and which he suspects is found in some of his readers, is a heart in which the evil of unbelief is present, not in a passive or latent state, but in an active, pernicious condition. The attitude of these Hebrews toward the New Testament was not one now of a passive neglect, but one of an active opposition, which attitude the writer was afraid would result in a deliberate and final rejection of the New Testament. We must be careful to discriminate here between a heart in which unbelief is present, and an unbelieving heart. The first may be true of a Christian, but not the second. The latter expression refers to a heart solely and entirely controlled by unbelief, in which there is no faith whatever. These Jews to whom this warning was issued, were not saved as our historical background and analysis have shown**. They had merely given an intellectual assent to the Messiahship of Jesus of Nazareth and to the New Testament."***
==============================================
** notice Hebrews was written to believers immersed in Yeshua, among whom were SOME who
*** "had merely given an intellectual assent to the Messiahship of Jesus of Nazareth and to the New Testament"
like
many gentiles TODAY. Thus, the importance of HEBREWS for those gentiles in congregations today
**" ... who are not saved as our ....... analysis ..." shows.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Peace be with you.

Are you in Heaven? If you are, you must be delusional since you are still typing here. Saved? Pure Nonsense.

The pure nonsense is your views, given what Paul answered the jailer's question: what MUST I DO to be saved?

Paul told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Now, I expect you'll cite the future tense for saved. But so what?

Please listen to Jesus:
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If that isn't enough, consider also what Jesus said in John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Therefore, those who believe HAVE eternal life, and those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't those who deny eternal security believe this?

Pulling verses of Scripture and claiming those verses prove you are saved. You must be living in DreamWorld.

Well, then prove that the verses I've just quoted for you DON'T prove that those who believe HAVE eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH.

Go ahead.

 

[Winken]

Yes, but the truth on the topic of sin presented from the author of Hebrews would be no different to unsaved Jews as it would be to Gentiles who are saved Christians.

Besides, in Romans 11:21-22, we see Paul talk to the Gentiles and he tells them to continue in his goodness otherwise they will be cut off like the Jews. Cut off means to be cut off spiritually like the Jews.


....

The Gentiles were grafted into the tree not as Christians, not as Jews. In their standing as Gentiles who had been exposed to but not confessed Jesus as Savior, they could be "cut off." God grants the opportunity to confess Romans 10:8-13; those who do not (since the Cross) have no hope.

 

[Winken]

See - even you call them "Brethren".

The Jewish author of Hebrews calls them Brethren, which indeed they were, in terms of Jewish religion, those sticking to the Abrahamic Covenant, those followers of Mosaic Law, those recognizing Jesus as the Messiah, but not confessing Him as Savior and Lord.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

The pure nonsense is your views, given what Paul answered the jailer's question: what MUST I DO to be saved?

Paul told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Now, I expect you'll cite the future tense for saved. But so what?

Please listen to Jesus:
John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

If that isn't enough, consider also what Jesus said in John 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Therefore, those who believe HAVE eternal life, and those who have been given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Why don't those who deny eternal security believe this?


Well, then prove that the verses I've just quoted for you DON'T prove that those who believe HAVE eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH.

Go ahead.

Peace be with you.

You are misled in your belief about what believing in Jesus means. All that Scripture you brought up look sweet and sound great but proving you believe in Jesus Christ, that is another story altogether.

God bless you.

 

[Winken]

Remember Jewish history. Chosen. Drifted. Hardened hearts. Renounced Abrahamic grace. Wilderness. Unbelief (apeitheo, no longer believe; apistia, unbelieving.) As in English, the leading letter, "a" sometimes makes the word a negative, not a positive. pistia=in belief; apistia=in unbelief.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So simple. Ever look in Scripture, to see what is ongoing, continuing action, compared with what is a one time action ? (in english , seems more difficult, but the Father reveals the Truth to His children, even if all we have is english versions, by His Spirit, as Jesus says).

Notice also, it seems most everyone (in most churches anyway) thinks of salvation as a one time act without further life or fellowship with Jesus needed...
Those are the ones in for a surprise on Judgement Day.

 

[sdowney717]

So simple. Ever look in Scripture, to see what is ongoing, continuing action, compared with what is a one time action ? (in english , seems more difficult, but the Father reveals the Truth to His children, even if all we have is english versions, by His Spirit, as Jesus says).

Notice also, it seems most everyone (in most churches anyway) thinks of salvation as a one time act without further life or fellowship with Jesus needed...
Those are the ones in for a surprise on Judgement Day.

So do you beleive in the NEW covenant with Christ making us born again at all??
It seems there is a lot of an Old covenant thinking regarding performing the commandments in our flesh being pushed here.
But no one is justified by works of the LAW, for by the LAW is the knowledge of SIN.
In the New Covenant this is what God does,

Hebrews 8

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


Apparently the meaning of salvation in Christ has no meaning to some, but only a performance of works of the self.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So mixed up and confusing.
Try to simplify.

 

[sdowney717]

So mixed up and confusing.
Try to simplify.

Why is scripture confusing to you??
Where is your faith and belief in Christ? According to your own self it seems is your salvation.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why is scripture confusing to you??

Scripture is simple.
As it is written "God created all things simple; men came up with many devices".
So simply. Step by step.

 

[sdowney717]

Apparently for some posters, a God ordained faith in Christ is insufficient to save them so they must do many good works as well to supplement that which is lacking in Christ's work. Our salvation is entirely and utterly not of ourselves. Christ laid hold of us while we were enemies because He foreknew us in love as His own possession BEFOREHAND, before you were born this had been determined. We did not desire Him! Until he made us born again, we had no wish to follow Christ. Christ was despised and rejected by men, and that also includes all people until the arm of the Lord is revealed in power over their lost state.

Isaiah 53New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Romans 8 has no meaning to some of these posters. they do not understand the message of God. And even find it abhorant so they speak against God's grace and authority over His own creation, which includes themselves.

They reject the doctrine of the calling of God to Himself those whom He foreknew, even while if they are born of God, must have been one of the called in Christ themselves, one God foreknew as an ELECT saved person. What an odd position to be in.

Roman 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.


​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Gentiles were grafted into the tree not as Christians, not as Jews. In their standing as Gentiles who had been exposed to but not confessed Jesus as Savior, they could be "cut off." God grants the opportunity to confess Romans 10:8-13; those who do not (since the Cross) have no hope.

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you trying to say that no Gentiles were saved before the cross or that the Gentiles were never in focus for God to save as a whole in the Old Covenant?

Also, the Jews were clearly cut off salvation wise. That is why Paul says earlier that his desire is for Israel to be saved (Romans 10:1). This is a parallel of how believing Gentiles could be cut off salvation wise, too.

In fact, Romans 11 also warns us believing Gentiles to be not minded but to fear.

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"
(Romans 11:20).

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apparently for some posters, a God ordained faith in Christ is insufficient to save them so they must do many good works as well to supplement that which is lacking in Christ's work. Our salvation is entirely and utterly not of ourselves. Christ laid hold of us while we were enemies because He foreknew us in love as His own possession BEFOREHAND, before you were born this had been determined. We did not desire Him! Until he made us born again, we had no wish to follow Christ. Christ was despised and rejected by men, and that also includes all people until the arm of the Lord is revealed in power over their lost state.

Isaiah 53New King James Version (NKJV)
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Romans 8 has no meaning to some of these posters. they do not understand the message of God. And even find it abhorant so they speak against God's grace and authority over His own creation, which includes themselves.

They reject the doctrine of the calling of God to Himself those whom He foreknew, even while if they are born of God, must have been one of the called in Christ themselves, one God foreknew as an ELECT saved person. What an odd position to be in.

Roman 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.


​

You quoted Romans 8:28 that says all things work together for good to those who love God.

How does Jesus (who is God) define how we are to love Him?

Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

...

 

[EmSw]

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you trying to say that no Gentiles were saved before the cross or that the Gentiles were never in focus for God to save as a whole in the Old Covenant?

Also, the Jews were clearly cut off salvation wise. That is why Paul says earlier that his desire is for Israel to be saved (Romans 10:1). This is a parallel of how believing Gentiles could be cut off salvation wise, too.
...

Why would Paul desire for Israel to be saved? How did God's elect become unsaved? Were they not God's children? Weren't they eternally secure?

 

[ZacharyB]

It is a sad commentary on 'christendom' that unbelievers most places cannot see any difference in the lives of believers

Jesus explained in 2 parables in Matthew 13 ...
-- BOTH the wheat and the tares exist in the kingdom of God(heaven),
basically indistinguishable.
-- Jesus plants the wheat (who are righteous),
while Satan plants the tares (who are evil)!