Against My Better Judgment...

[ArmyMatt]

“We, the faithful, do not worship the icons as gods. By no means as the pagans, rather we are simply expressing our relation to, and the feeling of our love toward, the person whose image is depicted in the icon. Hence, frequently when the image has faded, we burn it in fire, then as plain wood, that which previously was an icon. Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection [we feel] in our soul. For it is just as the Jew once worshipped the tablets of the Law and the two golden sculptured Cherubims not to honor the nature of the stone and gold, but the Lord who had given them.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria

“I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honor and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.” -St Basil the great.

 

[Lukaris]

I didn't change anything.

All 4 Christ provided evidence of visuals used by early Christians as documented by Eusebius in her 9/27 post. It is how a preacher provides the Gospel message so that grace is imparted to the hearers ( Ephesians 4:29). This is what must precede any expression whether by sight, orally or written.

 

[All Becomes New]

“We, the faithful, do not worship the icons as gods. By no means as the pagans, rather we are simply expressing our relation to, and the feeling of our love toward, the person whose image is depicted in the icon. Hence, frequently when the image has faded, we burn it in fire, then as plain wood, that which previously was an icon. Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection [we feel] in our soul. For it is just as the Jew once worshipped the tablets of the Law and the two golden sculptured Cherubims not to honor the nature of the stone and gold, but the Lord who had given them.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria

“I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honor and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.” -St Basil the great.

Thanks, I will look into these quotes. Do you have a reference to the works and chapter of where these were said? I want to look at them myself and then ask other theologians.

 

[All Becomes New]

All 4 Christ provided evidence of visuals used by early Christians as documented by Eusebius in her 9/27 post. It is how a preacher provides the Gospel message so that grace is imparted to the hearers ( Ephesians 4:29). This is what must precede any expression whether by sight, orally or written.

That is not valid. I am not against the use of Christian art. Christian art goes back to the beginning of Christianity. The question is whether icons were used in such a way as to connect you to the heavenly realm. Also, you really butchered the exegesis of Ephesians 4:29, and I have no idea how that would confirm icon veneration whatsoever.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thanks, I will look into these quotes. Do you have a reference to the works and chapter of where these were said? I want to look at them myself and then ask other theologians.

St Athanasius is from 39th Question to Antiochos, St Basil is letter 360

 

[Lukaris]

That is not valid. I am not against the use of Christian art. Christian art goes back to the beginning of Christianity. The question is whether icons were used in such a way as to connect you to the heavenly realm. Also, you really butchered the exegesis of Ephesians 4:29, and I have no idea how that would confirm icon veneration whatsoever.

I “butchered” nothing nor affirmed or denied the use of icons in worship. If a person enters any house of worship and hears the Gospel preached whether the house is whitewashed, has some statues, or icons, that person should know whether the Gospel is being preached or not ( Romans 10:15-18).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Isn't it obvious? I care about what is true. If that is not your guiding principle, you are going to fall into a plethora of issues.

So far, no one has been able to provide any evidence that the cultic use of icons goes back to the sixth century. That's what I have said since the beginning--that it does not go back to the apostles.

It is not "cultic". It has developed over time. It developed within Church Tradition. What is obvious is your weird obsession about it when you are not even Orthodox...

 

[All Becomes New]

 

[Lukaris]

Icon veneration might go back to the Apostles as an acceptable piety. It would seem to originate from the catacombs and was not mentioned much because it wasn’t condemned until heavy handed iconoclasm was applied. When iconoclasm lost dominance, an equally heavy handed approach was implemented. This is fallen human nature in which the spirit of the law is neglected to the letter of the law.

There is also no mention of the Oriental Orthodox in this video who practice icon veneration but were not in communion during the 787 council.


It is the Incarnation from which stems the ability for holy images ( John 1:1-18, Colossians 1:15) in worship and the avoidance of error ( John 1:18). Our understanding of grace is the free gift of salvation ( Ephesians 2:8-10) in which being partakers of the divine nature ( 2 Peter 1:1-4, per 2 Peter 1:1-21). This was experienced by the Apostles with the Lord in His Transfiguration ( Matthew 17:1-9, testified to by St. Peter per 2 Peter 1:16-18). The light experienced on Mt. Tabor is understood as uncreated an aspect of grace the basis of a window to heaven expressed in the icons.

The stringent emphasis in the council on the externals of kissing icons and lighting candles are not my personal emphasis of my faith. It has not much occurred to me actually although many parishioners faithfully practice this. I am just a warehouse worker in my secular life and a part time parish janitor.