Against Ecumenism

[prodromos]

I don't think he was being sarcastic

 

[Momzilla]

Since I'm not Orthodox, I don't have a dog in this fight. But, as an inquirer to Orthodoxy, this thread saddens me. One of the things that attracted me to Orthodoxy was the incredible humility I found among the Orthodox on this board, particularly with regard to the status of others' salvation. I don't know why it should disappoint me to learn that the Orthodox are just as subject to pride as the rest of us, but it does. I guess that I had assumed that Orthodoxy encouraged humility in a way that Protestant denominations (especially some here in the Deep South) do not.

This is just my two cents, and obviously it has nothing to do with ecumenicism. Carry on.

 

[Oblio]

Momzilla,

You will find, unfortunately, that Orthodox are just as sinful and prideful as the rest of Christianity. Sometimes perhaps more so in the area of pride. We need to be extra vigilant especially in the area of prelest, a common symptom of what I call convertitis. Ironically this often comes out in Lent, a time when we should be repenting, turning inward in prayer, and focusing on our own wretched state.

I think it is important to remember that being given this great Spiritual pearl that Orthodoxy is, we will, ultimately be judged more harshly should we squander and abuse it. Rest assured that Humility is encouraged and even commanded by both our Lord and the Saints of the Church. Do not judge the Church by the sinful failings of its individual members, myself being the worst offender.

 

[kiwimac]

As a part of the Central Orthodox Synod, may I simply say that the Patriarch's declaration is a simply nullity. Unless you are going to go against the teachings of the Orthodox patriarches who have insisted that all Christians are part of the mystical Body of Christ and that only Orthodox are recipients of salvation.

Ray+

 

[St. Tikon]

Since I'm not Orthodox, I don't have a dog in this fight. But, as an inquirer to Orthodoxy, this thread saddens me. One of the things that attracted me to Orthodoxy was the incredible humility I found among the Orthodox on this board, particularly with regard to the status of others' salvation. I don't know why it should disappoint me to learn that the Orthodox are just as subject to pride as the rest of us, but it does. I guess that I had assumed that Orthodoxy encouraged humility in a way that Protestant denominations (especially some here in the Deep South) do not.

This is just my two cents, and obviously it has nothing to do with ecumenicism. Carry on.

Orthodoxy has it's disagreements among individual jurisdictions, but we are supposed to be "One" in our basic beliefs.

Don't confuse standing up for doctrine, and the Church as pride. There are some here who would label such a thing as pride. We are ALL miserable sinners here. We all have shortcomings. If in my defense of belief, if I have offended you in anyway, I apologize my sister.

I must do what the Savior and the Church would expect of me. But I am trying to do so in a more gentle way. I tend to be very bombastic, and that is one of MY shortcomings. May the Savior grant me the wisdom and grace to rise above those shortcomings.

 

[vanshan]

Momzilla,

Please forgive me if my comments have offended your sensibilities. I am truly ill with the affects of sin, no question. I have pride and other sins that only my spritual father will hear.

I would also just like to point out that holier men than myself have strongly condemned heretical teachings. Is this pride? One of the highest acts of spiritual compassion is to condemn sin, including the sin of heresy. Leading men to the truth must be done humbly -- any wisdom we have is a gift from God, not originating withing ourselves.

 

[nicodemus]

I thought these threads were for debate amongst Orthodox only. Not that I don't want others in here, but it seems like our forum has turned into "interdenominational" debate lately, which I thought was against the terms of service. I'm all for a healthy discussion, but a lot of this discussion isn't healthy.

 

[Oblio]

I thought these threads were for debate amongst Orthodox only. Not that I don't want others in here, but it seems like our forum has turned into "interdenominational" debate lately, which I thought was against the terms of service. I'm all for a healthy discussion, but a lot of this discussion isn't healthy.

If you feel that there is debate by those that are not 'members' of TAW, please inform the moderators by the use of the Report feature.

 

[Oblio]

1) This forum is open to all Christians. Non-Christian members are not allowed to post here.

2) Orthodox and Coptic Christian members can post fellowship threads here as well as debate threads to discuss various doctrines to do with the Orthodox/ Coptic Faith and other denominations (including the Protestant and Catholic churches), as long as they are within our rules.

3) Non-Orthodox and Coptic members (eg. Protestant or Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Orthodox and Coptic doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Orthodox or Coptic member. Any debate posts by Non-Orthodox or Coptic members will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Orthodox and Coptic members can debate here.

4) No posts that denigrate a Christian denomination or Christian group including Protestant or Catholic denominations will be tolerated - these will be deleted and the poster will be warned.

 

[Polycarp1]

Lutherans only accept two of the 7 sacraments, and Anglicans accept only 6, and they are vague about the real presence during Divine Liturgy.

Which one do you consider we omit, sir?

And, in view of a past disagreement between us, I'd like to clarify this: I follow the teachings and instructions of my Bishop and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, especially as expressed through him.

I personally believe that the Lord has raised up the Orthodox Churches and caused them to grow in the West in these days precisely that they might bear witness to the Faith Given to the Apostles in a way that will heal the breaches between those who profess to follow Christ, and bring to us true ecumenicity. That is one prime reason that I regularly read TAW and occasionally comment or ask questions here.

May His Peace be with you!

 

[Reader Nilus]

ROCA is a canonical Church, and though we are not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, it is for strict political reasons. I commune on a REGULAR BASIS at an OCA Church, so I think you are wrong in that regard. And because we are canonical, A bishop of the church is still a bishop. Just like I said to Matrona, it was not my place to criticize a shepherd of the Church, it is also not yours as well. You can disagree, but to publicly deride him is not right. His decrees are valid as well.

I did not deride him or ROCOR I said they were not my superiors. The bishops of ROCOR are not part of SCOBA, the clergy of ROCOR in my area of the country are not part of the Orthodox Clergy Associations, and the ROCOR parishes do not join us in the Sunday of Orthodoxy.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Lotar]

Lutherans only accept two of the 7 sacraments, and Anglicans accept only 6, and they are vague about the real presence during Divine Liturgy.

Just to clarify the common misconseption, because of the way we define the word sacrament we only refer to two, baptism and communion, but when using the more broad definition used by the Orthodox and Catholics we have 5. Though I must admit we still lack two, penance and holy orders.

 

[Oblio]

Lotar,

What in your definition would preclude, say Holy Matrimony, from being a Sacrament in the Lutheran confession ?

Edited in: Reading this it may seem that I am being argumentative, I truly am curious as to the Lutheran definition. Orthodox afirm that there are at least seven Holy Mysteries but AFAIK we do not limit them to those seven, but we neither try to enumerate all the possible Mysteries.

 

[St. Tikon]

Which one do you consider we omit, sir?

And, in view of a past disagreement between us, I'd like to clarify this: I follow the teachings and instructions of my Bishop and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, especially as expressed through him.

I personally believe that the Lord has raised up the Orthodox Churches and caused them to grow in the West in these days precisely that they might bear witness to the Faith Given to the Apostles in a way that will heal the breaches between those who profess to follow Christ, and bring to us true ecumenicity. That is one prime reason that I regularly read TAW and occasionally comment or ask questions here.

May His Peace be with you!

In light of the fact that we disagree about more serious matters than the number of Sacraments, I will pass.

God Bless You.

 

[Lotar]

Lotar,

What in your definition would preclude, say Holy Matrimony, from being a Sacrament in the Lutheran confession ?

Edited in: Reading this it may seem that I am being argumentative, I truly am curious as to the Lutheran definition. Orthodox afirm that there are at least seven Holy Mysteries but AFAIK we do not limit them to those seven, but we neither try to enumerate all the possible Mysteries.

When we refer to sacrament we are generally refering to the sacraments that Christ Himself instituted while here on earth. When it is defined more broadly we have others like confirmation, absolution, marriage, ect. So it can be said we have two, five, or more depending on how strict the definition is.

 

[Reader Nilus]

Just to clarify the common misconseption, because of the way we define the word sacrament we only refer to two, baptism and communion, but when using the more broad definition used by the Orthodox and Catholics we have 5. Though I must admit we still lack two, penance and holy orders.

I would think that some Lutherans such as the Church of Sweden has Holy Orders being they have kept the Apostolic Sucession and it was the Augustanna Synod that acted like a free church in America. So I would say Lutherans at least in the old country have Holy Orders.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Lotar]

That is true. The ECLA has apostolic sucession from the Swedish bishops.

Though I must admit that when I said Holy Orders, I thought it meant monks and such... DOH!

 

[Euphrosynos]

Hello Euphrosynos!


I agree with you too. But seems to me that difference between the orthodoxy and the heterodoxy are deeper than we would think.
Tell me, why our Church recognizes catholic's (lutheran's, anglican's) christening and ordination?

I think the main doctrinal differences between us like filioque is the result of terminological misunderstanding (from Son or through Son). And we should try to overcome disagreements between us.

Orthodoxy has never recognized the mysteries of another Church. When one was accepted without these things, it was done in economy. Let me link you to a letter buy Sainted Metropolitan Philaret that explains this:

"The answer to this is simple. The Church has the authority in certain cases to employ the principle of economia condescension. The hierarch Saint Basil the Great said that, in order not to drive many away from the Church, it is necessary sometimes to permit condescension and not apply the church canons in all their severity. When our Church accepted Roman Catholic clergy in their orders, without ordaining them, she acted according to this principle. And Metropolitan Anthony [Khrapovitsky], elucidating this issue, pointed out that the outward form successive ordination from Apostolic times that the Roman Catholics do have; whereas the grace, which the Roman Catholic church has lost, is received by those uniting [themselves to the Church] from the plenitude of grace present in the Orthodox Church, at the very moment of their joining. The form is filled with content, said Vladyka Anthony" from euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=7

 

[emil_g]

Nicholas, do you speak russian?

Orthodoxy has never recognized the mysteries of another Church.

I think there is one Church - Orthodoxal Church and anglicans and lutherans are in it.

When one was accepted without these things, it was done in economy. Let me link you to a letter buy Sainted Metropolitan Philaret that explains this:

Thank you for the link. But tell me please, why the principle of EKONOMIA is not distributed for Iehova Witnesses and other neo-protestant groups?

 

[Suzannah]

Nicholas, do you speak russian?


I think there is one Church - Orthodoxal Church and anglicans and lutherans are in it.


Thank you for the link. But tell me please, why the principle of EKONOMIA is not distributed for Iehova Witnesses and other neo-protestant groups?

Hi Emil,
I think I can answer the last part. Jehova W. are not Trinitarian at all. Other neo-Prot. groups are also non-Trinitarian....among other things...I think this Encomia makes a certain amount of sense.."We know where the Church is, but not where it isn't.." I do not know any response to the first part of your post...sorry! Wish I could be more help!