Against Ecumenism

[emil_g]

I agree wholeheartedly with your quote from Augustine, though unfortunately it is in the "essentials" that we are not in unity with the other "churches".

Are Jesus Christ, Holy Trinity, Scripture, Paradosis of the Early Church and so on not "essentials"?

 

[vanshan]

I find it a difficult thing to say in today's multicultural world where all must accept all or be condemned as bigots, but we cannot do the diservice to our relatives in Christ (even though brothers and sisters seems much to close to be accurate -- I would more comfortably call them distant cousins).

We must stand up for the truth of God as revealed by the Prophets, as proclaimed by Christ, and perserved unconquerable by the Church Fathers. The Roman Catholic Church has not preserved the truth of Christ without blemish. It has adopted teachings that can only be described as heretical. To coddle them and court them by legitimizing their positions does no one any good. Shake off the innovations of the West and embrace Christ. What more can we say. It is correct they need us, only because we have preserved the true faith; not because we are so charming, or always friendly on this board.

We, Orthodox, are not a denomination, but rather we are those who rightly believe the faith of the Apostles. I am a convert and appreciated the candor of my Priest when he clearly delineated the differences between my false protestant beliefs and the truth of Orthodoxy. I had to humble myself and say, "I have believed and even taught heresy."

This is not to say their can be no salvation outside of Orthodoxy, but this is not revealed to us. The Orthodox Church we know is the true Body of Our Lord; it's sacraments valid and effectual for our salvation.

 

[prodromos]

Are Jesus Christ, Holy Trinity, Scripture, Paradosis of the Early Church and so on not "essentials"?

Of course, but so are the sacraments, which a large proportion of Protestant Christianity do not accept. Perhaps you thought I was only referring to our Catholic brethren? In actual fact I was thinking in terms of the World Council of Churches in which the Catholics do not take part, so I was actually excluding them from my comment.

I'm shocked that you all haven't reached a level of theosis where you can discern what I am thinking without my expressing it

John.

 

[emil_g]

Of course, but so are the sacraments, which a large proportion of Protestant Christianity do not accept.

But Lutherans and Anglicans does accept the main christian sacraments

I'm shocked that you all haven't reached a level of theosis where you can discern what I am thinking without my expressing it

:0) theosis is so far from me

Emil

 

[St. Tikon]

Of course the Canons, the Rudder that steers the Church does not. There is no Grace outside the Church and no Church but Orthodoxy. Sadly, many of the hierarchy of World(ly) Orthodoxy have thrown out the Rudder to the Ship of Faith and instead have plotted a new course down into the waters of sin.

When chrismation was used before IN EKONOMIA it was to fill an empty form IF a form was done correctly. But no people teach and believe the heresy that outside the Church mysteries of heretics have Grace. Sad when Tradition and Patristic teachings are thrown out for happy feelings and political correctness of accepting the heterodox as being anything other than what they truly are, Heretics needing the Grace of God in His Church.

Glad to see someone stand up for the Truth, even when it isn't politrically correct to do so.

 

[St. Tikon]

But Lutherans and Anglicans does accept the main christian sacraments


:0) theosis is so far from me

Emil

Lutherans only accept two of the 7 sacraments, and Anglicans accept only 6, and they are vague about the real presence during Divine Liturgy.

 

[St. Tikon]

I find it a difficult thing to say in today's multicultural world where all must accept all or be condemned as bigots, but we cannot do the diservice to our relatives in Christ (even though brothers and sisters seems much to close to be accurate -- I would more comfortably call them distant cousins).

We must stand up for the truth of God as revealed by the Prophets, as proclaimed by Christ, and perserved unconquerable by the Church Fathers. The Roman Catholic Church has not preserved the truth of Christ without blemish. It has adopted teachings that can only be described as heretical. To coddle them and court them by legitimizing their positions does no one any good. Shake off the innovations of the West and embrace Christ. What more can we say. It is correct they need us, only because we have preserved the true faith; not because we are so charming, or always friendly on this board.



We, Orthodox, are not a denomination, but rather we are those who rightly believe the faith of the Apostles. I am a convert and appreciated the candor of my Priest when he clearly delineated the differences between my false protestant beliefs and the truth of Orthodoxy. I had to humble myself and say, "I have believed and even taught heresy."

This is not to say their can be no salvation outside of Orthodoxy, but this is not revealed to us. The Orthodox Church we know is the true Body of Our Lord; it's sacraments valid and effectual for our salvation.

The Truth is not always pleasant, but sometimes needs to be said.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

St Tikon-

Are Catholics "saved" or are we doomed because we are not part of your Church?

 

[St. Tikon]

Archbishop Vitaly is not my superior, nor is ROCOR. ROCOR, which is not in communion with the OCA or the MP. My Bishops are involved with the NCC and WCC, which is fine by me. We have not sold our beliefs down the river.
We can live in fear and bury the talent given us, or we can live in the hope of the Resurrection and share our faith with all people. We do not sell out by listening to folks that are not us, we may even learn something.
Fundamentalists have a fear of the one world religion. They think that the WCC is going to usher in the age of the anti-Christ. We also have Our Lord's prayer that they may be one even as we are one. We know all the division amongst Christians is caused by sin, our sin. One of the first things that can be done is to realize that those folks that meet at the church across the street from ours are not devils, are not the scum of the earth, and in fact are folks just like us. It seems Biblically in the Old Testament Israel felt that it had a lock on the promises of God and wanted to keep it for themselves, but the prophets rose up and said it was for all people. Where best to show forth the Light of Orthodoxy than in the ecumenical movement? We do not need to circle the wagons in fear.
Jeff the Finn

ROCA is a canonical Church, and though we are not in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, it is for strict political reasons. I commune on a REGULAR BASIS at an OCA Church, so I think you are wrong in that regard. And because we are canonical, A bishop of the church is still a bishop. Just like I said to Matrona, it was not my place to criticize a shepherd of the Church, it is also not yours as well. You can disagree, but to publicly deride him is not right. His decrees are valid as well.

 

[St. Tikon]

St Tikon-

Are Catholics "saved" or are we doomed because we are not part of your Church?

Sorry: I am not going to fall into that trap.
Work out your own salvation with "fear and trembling" as the scripture says.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Sorry: I am not going to fall into that trap.
Work out your own salvation with "fear and trembling" as the scripture says.

Its not a trap, its a question about your beliefs. If you think your beliefs are not appropriate under the TOS of CF, then why do you post here? Why do you feel the need to hide your beliefs?

 

[St. Tikon]

Regardless of what I believe, it has been made clear to me that my stance against ecumenicalism is not appreciated by some here, and I would rather not say certain things in public. Write me in private, and I will elaborate.

 

[Oblio]

A bishop of the church is still a bishop. Just like I said to Matrona, it was not my place to criticize a shepherd of the Church, it is also not yours as well. You can disagree, but to publicly deride him is not right. His decrees are valid as well.

So you are saying that laity have no voice in the Church, there is no protection against a rogue Bishop ? And where has he been derided ? His decrees may be valid in your jurisdiction (ROCA) and Diocese, but not mine, nor Jeff's. To think otherwise is to fall into same the erroneous doctrine that the Patriarch of Rome governs the entire Church.

 

[Oblio]

Regardless of what I believe, it has been made clear to me that my stance against ecumenicalism is not appreciated by some here, and I would rather not say certain things in public.

Ya'll still haven't even defined that which you stand against

Or is allowing Armenians and Copts a place in our forum part of the nebulous evil ecumenicalism ?

 

[St. Tikon]

So you are saying that laity have no voice in the Church, there is no protection against a rogue Bishop ? And where has he been derided ? His decrees may be valid in your jurisdiction (ROCA) and Diocese, but not mine, nor Jeff's. To think otherwise is to fall into same the erroneous doctrine that the Patriarch of Rome governs the entire Church.

Not at all. But the other Patriarchates haven't said Archbishop Vitaly or others ARE rogue Bishops. The laity have a voice, but must be guided by the Church, and the Canons. And of course, nothing in the post that I can see violates the Churches position as a whole.

 

[St. Tikon]

Ya'll still haven't even defined that which you stand against

Or is allowing Armenians and Copts a place in our forum part of the nebulous evil ecumenicalism ?

Do you REALLY think I can answer that question and not get banned?
I wouldn't want to be accused of breaking any forum rules.....

 

[emil_g]

Lutherans only accept two of the 7 sacraments, and Anglicans accept only 6, and they are vague about the real presence during Divine Liturgy.

The doctrine about seven sacraments has come to us from the catholics.

 

[prodromos]

Well, if I remember correctly, the Orthodox sacraments number more than seven.

John.

 

[nyj]

I wouldn't want to be accused of breaking any forum rules...

It's Lent... why the sarcasm?

 

[nyj]

If you get down to "brass tacks" that is exactly what the Archbishop is saying. In a larger sense, we are Brothers in Christ...

So the "brass tacks" say "Salvation only for the Orthodox" but in a larger sense "we are Brothers in Christ". That makes zero sense.

Of course, that really wasn't a question, so I suppose I should bow out of this and let you guys discuss this amongst yourselves.