Against Ecumenism

[St. Tikon]

A quote from Archbishop Vitaly of Montreal, regarding Ecumenism:


"The Orthodox Russian Church Abroad, headed at the present time by Metropolitan Philaret, confesses itself to be an inseparable part of the historical Russian Church. As a Local Church it has the right to assemble its own regular sobors and to pronounce resolutions which are completely obligatory for all her children dispersed throughout the world. Time will show whether the other Local Churches will accept our decision concerning Ecumenism, even as in their own time, the decrees of the ten Local Councils were accepted by all, and were entered into the "Book of the Canons of the Holy Apostles, the Holy Ecumenical and Local Councils and the Holy Fathers" of the Ecumenical Church. ... As far as Ecumenism is concerned, every Local Church has had sufficient time over the past one hundred years to study it, and if any given Local Church bases its teaching and life on the canons of the Holy Apostles, on the canons of all the Orthodox Councils, then it cannot but acknowledge the fact that Ecumenism has assembled into one all the heresies which have ever existed, both past and present, and called this unity a church. Such a manifestation is already plainly of the Antichrist. Thus, in proclaiming the Anathema, we have protected our flock from this apocalyptic temptation, and unintentionally have simultaneously posed a serious question to the conscience of all the Local Churches, which they must sooner or later resolve on one side or the other. Their future spiritual fate in the universal Orthodox Church will depend upon the resolution of this question. De jure the Anathema which has been pronounced by us is of a purely local character of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, but de facto it has an immense historical significance universally, historically and ecclesiastically, precisely because Ecumenism itself is a heresy of a world-wide scale. This position of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is clearly on the conscience of all the Orthodox. For us, this is a great cross which the Lord has placed upon us. But we can be silent no longer, for further silence would be tantamount to a betrayal of the truth; from which betrayal may the Lord deliver us all.

+Archbishop Vitaly of Montreal"

 

[nicodemus]

I like the majority of what I've read from Archbishop Vitaly.

 

[Moros]

The ecumenical patriarch needs to cease his coddling of the roman catholics. Ecumenism is heresy, they shouted on Mt. Athos.

 

[Oblio]

The ecumenical patriarch needs to cease his coddling of the roman catholics. Ecumenism is heresy, they shouted on Mt. Athos.

Who shouted this Osel ?

And what is your definition of Ecumenism, and what is the Bishop's definition ?

 

[Reader Nilus]

Unless we say that all Christian bodies are null and void, except us, that would speak against ecumenicalism. But most Orthodox do not hold that view at all, I was chrismated into the Church, my Lutheran Baptism was valid, and I was considered a Christian. Given that ecumenicalism is a must. Our Church needs to engage the other Christians in dialogue, needs to cooperate with them when it comes to human need. If we did not want to engage in ecumenical activity, none of us would be posting on Christian Forums, which is a cyberland grass roots ecumenical movement.
Jeff the Finn

 

[St. Tikon]

Unless we say that all Christian bodies are null and void, except us, that would speak against ecumenicalism. But most Orthodox do not hold that view at all, I was chrismated into the Church, my Lutheran Baptism was valid, and I was considered a Christian. Given that ecumenicalism is a must. Our Church needs to engage the other Christians in dialogue, needs to cooperate with them when it comes to human need. If we did not want to engage in ecumenical activity, none of us would be posting on Christian Forums, which is a cyberland grass roots ecumenical movement.
Jeff the Finn

The Orthodox Church has survived for 2000 years without help from other Churches. We don't need them, they need us.

Unless we say that all Christian bodies are null and void

That is EXACTLY what the Archbishop is saying!

 

[nyj]

That is EXACTLY what the Archbishop is saying!

No salvation except for the Orthodox then?

And here I thought that you said that we were brothers in Christ. Now you're telling me my Catholic faith is null and void. Brothers we are not. This I am now sure of.

 

[Reader Nilus]

No salvation except for the Orthodox then?

And here I thought that you said that we were brothers in Christ. Now you're telling me my Catholic faith is null and void. Brothers we are not. This I am now sure of.

That NYJ is not the view of the OCA I know, and most of SCOBA would not hold such a view. I consider Catholics my brothers and sisters.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Photini]

The Orthodox Church has survived for 2000 years without help from other Churches. We don't need them, they need us.

When I read this, I was reminded of a sentence in the biography of St Seraphim of Sarov by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore. There was a woman who had a vision in which a certain western saint visited her along with St. Seraphim. He said to her, "My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is [referring to St Serphim]. It supports everyone, and does not require support from anyone."

 

[St. Tikon]

No salvation except for the Orthodox then?

And here I thought that you said that we were brothers in Christ. Now you're telling me my Catholic faith is null and void. Brothers we are not. This I am now sure of.

If you get down to "brass tacks" that is exactly what the Archbishop is saying. In a larger sense, we are Brothers in Christ, but lets face it:
You are RC, I am Orthodox, there is a SCHISM between us. Both Churches feel the other one is wrong. These decisions are made by higher men than you and I. Don't take everything as a personal attack.

 

[St. Tikon]

That NYJ is not the view of the OCA I know, and most of SCOBA would not hold such a view. I consider Catholics my brothers and sisters.
Jeff the Finn

Gee Jeff, I didn't know you had made a "pronouncement" from the throne and ended the Schism. I will make sure to inform my Bishop <SARCASM>

 

[St. Tikon]

When I read this, I was reminded of a sentence in the biography of St Seraphim of Sarov by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore. There was a woman who had a vision in which a certain western saint visited her along with St. Seraphim. He said to her, "My daughter, you seek the true Church. It is there, where he is [referring to St Serphim]. It supports everyone, and does not require support from anyone."

St. Seraphim is one of my favorite Saints.

 

[Reader Nilus]

If ecumenical activity is so bad, why do you even post on an ecumenical forum? We know where there is salvation, but none of us knows where salvation is not. I imagine that His Beautitude Met HERMAN leading marchers for the right to life, is a a terrible thing, goodness he is making common cause with what you consider as heathens, but you back tracked, if they are brothers and sisters in Christ, then you do not help them by walling oneself off, and living in a rose garden. It seems Our Lord was taken to task more than once for eating and drinking with sinners and tax collectors. Goodness the first person he told that he was the Christ was not even a Jewish person! That must have gone over great with the powers that be in his day of the Jewish Religion. He taught us to be a neighbor, and not to worry about creed, we are to heal, period. But if one is so afraid of others that to talk with them will get us dirty, we do not have a very good hold on life, and the knowedge that Our Lord is Merciful.

Jeff the Finn

 

[Suzannah]

Tikohn,
May I ask this: if you really feel this way, why are you here ? CF is owned by a Non-Orthodox. I'm beginning to see these posts from you as in extremely poor taste, in light of the fact that Erwin has been so kind to us. It is basically, bad manners.
No one here has asked you to partake of the Eucharist with Nontraditional Orthodox, or anyone else for that matter. These issues are best left for your parish council meeting.

This is just a message board, a virtual hangout on the web. It is not a "sanctified" place.

 

[Photini]

St. Seraphim is one of my favorite Saints.

My son's patron Saint is St. Seraphim of Sarov

 

[St. Tikon]

Tikohn,
May I ask this: if you really feel this way, why are you here ? CF is owned by a Non-Orthodox. I'm beginning to see these posts from you as in extremely poor taste, in light of the fact that Erwin has been so kind to us. It is basically, bad manners.
No one here has asked you to partake of the Eucharist with Nontraditional Orthodox, or anyone else for that matter. These issues are best left for your parish council meeting.

This is just a message board, a virtual hangout on the web. It is not a "sanctified" place.

You may notice, that with the exception of the help I gave on the Mormon Thread, I do NOT go and debate on any other parts of this forum. We are certainly commanded to be charitable to our Non-Orthodox Brothers & Sisters, just as our Lord was charitable. BUT....we don't violate the direction of our Church to do so. I am very active in the Pro-Life Movement, and have gone to jail many times with a Roman Catholic Bishop. He and I are friends, but we do not commune with each other, and we agree to disagree. We meet on a common ground. That is not ecumenicalism. Big difference. Also I obey my superiors without question. One of our Archbishops has said it, I accept it as such. What I post, I do so, to show the viewpoint in Traditional Orthodoxy. I believe I do have the right to do so.

 

[Suzannah]

You may notice, that with the exception of the help I gave on the Mormon Thread, I do NOT go and debate on any other parts of this forum. We are certainly commanded to be charitable to our Non-Orthodox Brothers & Sisters, just as our Lord was charitable. BUT....we don't violate the direction of our Church to do so. I am very active in the Pro-Life Movement, and have gone to jail many times with a Roman Catholic Bishop. He and I are friends, but we do not commune with each other, and we agree to disagree. We meet on a common ground. That is not ecumenicalism. Big difference. Also I obey my superiors without question. One of our Archbishops has said it, I accept it as such. What I post, I do so, to show the viewpoint in Traditional Orthodoxy. I believe I do have the right to do so.

You have not answered my question. If you feel so strongly that you cannot have dialogue with other people at CF without bashing them over the head regarding ecumenism, why are you here?

 

[St. Tikon]

If ecumenical activity is so bad, why do you even post on an ecumenical forum? We know where there is salvation, but none of us knows where salvation is not. I imagine that His Beautitude Met HERMAN leading marchers for the right to life, is a a terrible thing, goodness he is making common cause with what you consider as heathens, but you back tracked, if they are brothers and sisters in Christ, then you do not help them by walling oneself off, and living in a rose garden. It seems Our Lord was taken to task more than once for eating and drinking with sinners and tax collectors. Goodness the first person he told that he was the Christ was not even a Jewish person! That must have gone over great with the powers that be in his day of the Jewish Religion. He taught us to be a neighbor, and not to worry about creed, we are to heal, period. But if one is so afraid of others that to talk with them will get us dirty, we do not have a very good hold on life, and the knowedge that Our Lord is Merciful.

Jeff the Finn

Fellowship with non-Orthodox is not Ecumenicalism unless we betray our beliefs to do so. And fellowship is a good thing.

 

[Suzannah]

Also I obey my superiors without question. One of our Archbishops has said it, I accept it as such. What I post, I do so, to show the viewpoint in Traditional Orthodoxy. I believe I do have the right to do so.

Why do you wish to imply that the rest of us don't obey our superiors without question?

 

[Suzannah]

Fellowship with non-Orthodox is not Ecumenicalism unless we betray our beliefs to do so. And fellowship is a good thing.

Well, certainly not. Fellowship is a wonderful thing and I would be lonely on that hilltop. Where has anyone betrayed their beliefs? Or is it YOUR beliefs we are betraying?