Affirmative Action

[sethad]

Is racism, on the whole, no longer a reality in the US?

racism is a big reality. doesnt matter if its whites discriminating against hispanics, blacks discrimination against whites, and so on. its still there.

 

[k]

racism is a big reality. doesnt matter if its whites discriminating against hispanics, blacks discrimination against whites, and so on. its still there.

How do we address the issue?

 

[sethad]

How do we address the issue?

make discrimination illegal. which to some extent it is...they still allow hate groups as long as their "registered" but its really the individuals you have to watch out for. that and its very hard to say "they didnt hire me because i'm not [black, white, hispanic]" because usually the employer will just say that the other person was "more qualified" I've gotten that before.

I think in general AA is okay...I need to read more into it. however when it comes to colleges I think they should use it more based on location/economical reasons and not race. not even have race on the applications. because what happens is that a poor black kid from the inner city and a bad high school will get the advantages from AA but a poor white kid from the same location wont.

 

[Jetgirl]

make discrimination illegal. which to some extent it is...they still allow hate groups as long as their "registered" but its really the individuals you have to watch out for.

That will generally come down to the legalization of personal opinion, bad idea IMO.

that and its very hard to say "they didnt hire me because i'm not [black, white, hispanic]" because usually the employer will just say that the other person was "more qualified" I've gotten that before.

The problem with this is that it is equally easy to say "I wasn't hired because they discriminate" when the case really WAS that you were unqualified, perhaps in some manner that you do not recognize.

Because you are say, black or some other minority, or female for instance, and are consistantly not hired may imply not that you are being discriminated against, but that you do not have the skills or experience to enter the field you are trying to get into.

At my workplace, we refuse to hire anyone who has spelling or grammatical errors in their resume. It turns out that the tendency is that those people are minorities. Are we discriminating?

 

[sethad]

That will generally come down to the legalization of personal opinion, bad idea IMO.

people can have their own opinions no matter how stinky they may be. but if they start using those opinions at their jobs to treat people bad etc...then its wrong. I think that kind of discrimination should be illegal. if any kind of discrimination causes harm...its not good.

The problem with this is that it is equally easy to say "I wasn't hired because they discriminate" when the case really WAS that you were unqualified, perhaps in some manner that you do not recognize.

Because you are say, black or some other minority, or female for instance, and are consistantly not hired may imply not that you are being discriminated against, but that you do not have the skills or experience to enter the field you are trying to get into.

At my workplace, we refuse to hire anyone who has spelling or grammatical errors in their resume. It turns out that the tendency is that those people are minorities. Are we discriminating?

that was my point. its very hard to pinpoint if someone wasnt hired because of their race/gender/weight/disability/etc or because they werent qualified.

I've been called for interviews and "come and have an interview then you can start work" but the moment they figure out that "oh wait...eh...he's deaf..." they call and say "sorry...we found someone 'more qualified'". Question is...was that person actually more qualified or did they just not want to hire me because of my hearing status? (a term called Audism...not in the dictionary but its a term used in Deaf culture to mean discrimination by hearing ability). I dont feel like going through the legal red tape/time/money/etc to find out of it was actually discrimination (although I feel like it was) and chances are the company would make a case for me being "less qualified" anyway.

Being [deaf white black hispanic asian..etc] doesnt necassarily automatically mean someone isnt qualified. if they arent hired for ONLY being [insert any of the above here] that means its discrimination and it should be illegal.

 

[Jetgirl]

people can have their own opinions no matter how stinky they may be. but if they start using those opinions at their jobs to treat people bad etc...then its wrong. I think that kind of discrimination should be illegal. if any kind of discrimination causes harm...its not good.

What if not discriminating, in the dictionary sense of the word, causes harm to the business? I'll give an example below.

that was my point. its very hard to pinpoint if someone wasnt hired because of their race/gender/weight/disability/etc or because they werent qualified.

Yep.

I've been called for interviews and "come and have an interview then you can start work" but the moment they figure out that "oh wait...eh...he's deaf..." they call and say "sorry...we found someone 'more qualified'". Question is...was that person actually more qualified or did they just not want to hire me because of my hearing status?

This may sound cruel, but I myself would not hire you on the basis that you are Deaf.

I actually sign myself and have a number of friends in the Deaf community here, but in this case I would have to re-organize my entire unit, and gear the unit's functioning toward supporting one employee. To work in my unit you need to constantly interact with various vendors and clients over the phone, and can almost guarentee that none of them are TTY equipped. The clients are also very unforgiving and making them go out of their way AT ALL for any reason is not a good idea.

In other words, your Deafness itself makes you unqualified as a hire for my unit. Being black or hispanic or female or obese or in a wheelchair would have no hinderance at this job whatsoever and I would hire the most qualified person of that group.

I'd hire you as a bookkeeper, we need one, but I doubt you have the kind of bookkeeping experience we're looking for.

Being [deaf white black hispanic asian..etc] doesnt necassarily automatically mean someone isnt qualified. if they arent hired for ONLY being [insert any of the above here] that means its discrimination and it should be illegal.

Well, I wouldn't hire you only because you are Deaf, regardless of any other qualifications (and I've hired other 18 y/o's who are doing great, so that's not a problem either).

Hiring a Deaf person to do a communication-heavy job is just irrational in a business sense. You would not be able to do the job that the job entails.

If I had a job that wasn't communication-heavy I wouldn't much hesitate.

 

[sethad]

that's part of the problem is that most people dont have a clue about deafness, Deaf culture, ASL...ttys etc. so working at places like that wouldnt work anyway. I wouldnt apply for a job like that in the first place.

however...if there was a business like that in a place where there was a large Deaf community you could use a deaf person.

I know of banks, etc that have Deaf people working and they work with any Deaf clients that come in.

makes much more sense for me to work within the Deaf community anyway since most Hearing people dont have a clue

 

[Jetgirl]

that's part of the problem is that most people dont have a clue about deafness, Deaf culture, ASL...ttys etc. so working at places like that wouldnt work anyway. I wouldnt apply for a job like that in the first place.

however...if there was a business like that in a place where there was a large Deaf community you could use a deaf person.

Yeah, definitely, I've been trying to see if my boss wants to extend into that field, since I know several out of work interpreters who would love to do our stuff, but it involves more work than say, the Hispanic community where all you need is someone bilingual.

I know of banks, etc that have Deaf people working and they work with any Deaf clients that come in.

makes much more sense for me to work within the Deaf community anyway since most Hearing people dont have a clue

You're having a hard time from employeers that already work within the Deaf community?

 

[sethad]

no...i'm back home now where i'm in this stupid town where if you said "deaf" they'd think "braille"

lol

i'm planning on moving as far away as home as possible soon. i hope. once i have more money. its getting the money thats been the problem.

 

[praying]

The problem with this is that it is equally easy to say "I wasn't hired because they discriminate" when the case really WAS that you were unqualified, perhaps in some manner that you do not recognize.

It is easy to say but very difficult to prove and the www.eeoc.gov site statistics reflect that.


Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA) Charges
FY 1992 - FY 2004
http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/ada-charges.htmlhttp://www.eeoc.gov/stats/ada-charges.html

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

For all those opposed to AA...is this equitable to stating that racism, overall, has been antiquated?

No, racism is still out there. From all sorts of groups.

The problem people have with AA is that it is using more racism to try to correct the effects of racism. Because no matter how people spin it, no matter what watered-down terms they use to describe it, AA at the end of the day introduces race as a factor in hiring and college admission.

 

[k]

No, racism is still out there. From all sorts of groups.

The problem people have with AA is that it is using more racism to try to correct the effects of racism. Because no matter how people spin it, no matter what watered-down terms they use to describe it, AA at the end of the day introduces race as a factor in hiring and college admission.

Okay, but that STILL does NOT qualify AA as being RACIST. Why? Because it would have to oppress whites as a WHOLE GROUP. In fact, it does not oppress whites at all because it does NOT prevent them from getting jobs. The # 1 benefactor of AA are white women.

 

[MethodMan]

Okay, but that STILL does NOT qualify AA as being RACIST. Why? Because it would have to oppress whites as a WHOLE GROUP. In fact, it does not oppress whites at all because it does NOT prevent them from getting jobs. The # 1 benefactor of AA are white women.

Yo are going around in circles - AA not designed to elimninate racism yet use it for a reason to call for it.

 

[k]

Yo are going around in circles - AA not designed to elimninate racism yet use it for a reason to call for it.

No, I am not going in circles, but it may appear as such to some. Not my fault 'cause I don't set the speed limits for these things.

 

[TheDaywalker]

The biggest problem with Affirmative action in general is that it serves to weaken support for underprivledged minorities in useful ways. When "disadvantaged" minorities (no Asians or Jews allowed) gain entitlment through education or jobs they not only are less benficial to the institution which the are accepted into, but also they draw attention away from the problems that cause these disadvantages in the first place.
Racism is still present underneath the skin of America, but in many ways has taken a form different than it had 50 years ago. Cultural racism is far more rampant now, even amongst the more educated class, and it hurts "white trailer park trash" as much as it does "crack smoking n*****s".
And often minorities reiforce these stereotypes. Blacks often accuse successful rich black of "selling out" to whites, assuming that they needed to kiss ass to get their position. It may be true, but hpw could anyone actually know? This sort of intra-racial denegration, along with affirmative aciton, only reinforces the concepts that minorities cant do anything for themselves.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Okay, but that STILL does NOT qualify AA as being RACIST. Why? Because it would have to oppress whites as a WHOLE GROUP. In fact, it does not oppress whites at all because it does NOT prevent them from getting jobs. The # 1 benefactor of AA are white women.

Racism is both an individual and a group thing. If a person is treated poorly because of their race, it’s still racism, regardless of how others in their group are treated.

And yes – AA can be sexist too.

 

[k]

Racism is both an individual and a group thing. If a person is treated poorly because of their race, it’s still racism, regardless of how others in their group are treated.

And yes – AA can be sexist too.

One hurdle is understanding there are different definitions of Racism operating. What one may consider to be racist another may consider to be simple prejudice.

The most basic definition of racism is: discrimination based on race AND power. The two must be equally present for racism to exist.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

One hurdle is understanding there are different definitions of Racism operating. What one may consider to be racist another may consider to be simple prejudice.

The most basic definition of racism is: discrimination based on race AND power. The two must be equally present for racism to exist.

Well, given that AA laws are enacted by government, I would contend that discrimination based on race AND power is indeed present.

 

[k]

Well, given that AA laws are enacted by government, I would contend that discrimination based on race AND power is indeed present.

That would be true if AA mandated most whites became the property of African-Americans and that they had to work for them completely free.

It is a complete misnomer and myth to say that AA is "reverse racism" because it does not even come close to the racism whites have placed on African-Americans in the US.

 

[Jetgirl]

That would be true if AA mandated most whites became the property of African-Americans and that they had to work for them completely free.

But that's already illegal.

It is a complete misnomer and myth to say that AA is "reverse racism" because it does not even come close to the racism whites have placed on African-Americans in the US.

So racism isn't really racism unless it's the same scale of racism that has already been dealt with and put down in this country?