Adventist Investigative Judgment

[tall73]

I am going to go through some high level clarifying questions just to spell things out a bit:

Bob, or other Adventists if you could indicate agreement or disagreement with these, or add any context or details or nuance you like.

- Adventists indicate that the purpose of the investigative judgment is not for God's knowledge, as He knows all, but for that of the angels and any other created intelligence that God has made, and vindicates God's justice.

- Adventists see the cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844 as indicating that in 1844 Jesus began to do a work in the heavenly sanctuary that is the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement cleansing type that the high priest would perform within the temple. (They do not see Jesus as currently performing anything to do with the scapegoat portion that happens when He exits the temple, as that is a later event, as in the type).

 

[tall73]

Continuing clarifying questions:

- Miller was not the first to posit the idea of a year/day principle, or the idea that this prophecy reached until around 1843/44, as there were other interpreters who had at least somewhat similar calculations at least as it relates to the general timeframe, if not the same meaning (Miller does however indicate he came to these independently of others). Froom in his work prophetic faith of our fathers outlines a number of such interpreters from before Miller's time, and Martin and Barnhouse concur that there were a number previous to Miller, and all of them, including Miller, came from mainline existing denominations before the beginning of the ecumenical Millerite movement.
(As an aside an Adventist may want to discuss the workings of the proposed day/year principle).

- The beginning of the 2,300 days in the Adventist framework is not stated in chapter 8 where the bulk of the prophecy occurs, but rather in chapter 9, which Adventists indicate spells out the beginning of both the 2,300 days and the 70 weeks prophecies, which they see as running concurrently with the same beginning point.

 

[tall73]

Additional clarifying:

- Adventists indicate that the only names reviewed in the investigative judgment are those who are "professed" followers of God. The judgment of the wicked takes place at a later time.




Do Adventists agree with the following quote from the Great Controversy chapter 23?

Please note, I am only posting this as it is usually agreed upon by Adventists, and not to demonstrate the doctrine, or to claim that Adventists are attempting to demonstrate the doctrine with statements by Ellen White. But since this is a technical statement, I also don't want to be accused of misrepresenting the Adventist view. Again, Adventists, please add any context or clarification desired.

Here is the link to the context. I was going to post from multiple chapters of the GC in full, but per the copyright page of the White Estate I do not believe I can do so. Therefore, please do not accuse me of not trying to place the context.

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 23: What Is the Sanctuary?

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by [422] the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation—a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12.

 

[tall73]

I was going to post some additional material but due to copyright am not sure that I can. So this post is not needed.

 

[BobRyan]

- Adventists indicate that the purpose of the investigative judgment is not for God's knowledge, as He knows all, but for that of the angels and any other created intelligence that God has made, and vindicates God's justice.

Agreed. The myriads and myriads in Dan 7:9-10 are gaining the benefit of seeing the data and showing the reader that compelling evidence is what drives to the correct conclusion in a free will system such as God has maintained by design in the universe.

- Adventists see the cleansing of the sanctuary in 1844 as indicating that in 1844 Jesus began to do a work in the heavenly sanctuary that is the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement cleansing type that the high priest would perform within the temple.

True

(They do not see Jesus as currently performing anything to do with the scapegoat portion that happens when He exits the temple, as that is a later event, as in the type).

true - because in Lev 16:15 the term "the goat of the sin offering" is an unambiguous reference to the "Lord's goat" and does not at all point to the "scapegoat". All sin offerings are slain according to Leviticus. Lev 16 makes a distinct point that the scapegoat was not to slain. It is not a symbol of "atoning sacrifice" for someone.

In Lev 16:5 before lots are cast - both goats are included in the term "sin offering" but once roles are assigned - lots are cast - only the Lord's goat is referenced as sin offering - of the two goats.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.

Here we see it as "sin offering" and no reference at all to the "Lord's lot" selecting it - because at this point only one goat is the sin offering.

15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

This gets "the type" setup to represent a key Gospel of salvation detail - explaining how atonement happens.

=====================

Christ is both priest and sin offering in Lev 16 -

Heb 8:1-5 says that Christ as our High Priest in heaven "is the main point"

1. On the Cross - Christ offers his body - Heb 10:10
2 Then in heaven - the inauguration of Heb 9
3. followed by the daily,
4. and finally the Day of Atonement phase.

the "main point" In Heb 8: a still-functioning heavenly sanctuary and a still fully functional High Priesthood ministry of Christ in that fully functional Sanctuary in heaven.

Lev 16
25 Then he shall offer up in smoke the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

Ex 30:20 NASB when they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die; or when they approach the altar to minister, by offering up in smoke a fire sacrifice to the Lord.

Heb 9: 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,


Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Only on the Cross did Christ "bears the sins of many". In Heaven He is pleading His blood in our behalf - His blood shed after having had the "sins of many" placed upon Him - and then dying as our substitutionary atoning sacrifice.

Clearly that is not "in the sanctuary"

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

He entered in once for all

One sacrifice -- offered up -- offering the body of Christ - on the cross.

And in every case in scripture - the inauguration service is not part of the "Day of Atonement"

 

[tall73]

true - because in Lev 16:15 the term "the goat of the sin offering" is an unambiguous reference to the "Lord's goat" and does not at all point to the "scapegoat". All sin offerings are slain according to Leviticus. Lev 16 makes a distinct point that the scapegoat was no to slain. It is not a symbol of "atoning sacrifice" for someone.

In Lev 16:5 before lots are cast - both goats are included in the term "sin offering" but once roles are assigned - lots are cast - only the Lord's goat is referenced as sin offering - of the two goats.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.

This gets "the type" setup to represent a key Gospel of salvation detail - explaining how atonement happens.

And just to underscore this point, the scapegoat is somewhat of a different teaching for Adventists. And unless Adventists object I would suggest that if anyone wants to take up the question that it be done in another thread, as it is not the main thrust of the Adventist Sanctuary doctrine, and is its own whole debate. Nor am I aware of any passage acknowledged by all parties in the New Testament that touches on the scapegoat in any way that would be definitive in spelling out its fulfillment.

 

[BobRyan]

Continuing clarifying questions:

- Miller was not the first to posit the idea of a year/day principle, or the idea that this prophecy reached until around 1843/44, as there were other interpreters who had at least somewhat similar calculations at least as it relates to the general timeframe, if not the same meaning (Miller does however indicate he came to these independently of others).

Yes in fact wikipedia has an article on historicist day-for-year and how Protestants were affirming this Bible teaching.

Froom in his work prophetic faith of our fathers outlines a number of such interpreters from before Miller's time, and Martin and Barnhouse concur that there were a number previous to Miller, and all of them, including Miller, came from mainline existing denominations before the beginning of the ecumenical Millerite movement.

exactly --

(As an aside an Adventist may want to discuss the workings of the proposed day/year principle).

Well we believe that the day represents a "solar year" so then real years and no "compensating calculations" need to be applied to make it work out to a year. As noted in my post on Dan 8 and 9 - we see Dan 9 as a well accepted day-for-year example that almost all protestant groups agree with and we say it demonstrates a key principle in apocalyptic timeline interpretation for Dan 7, and 8 and for Rev 11,12,13.

- The beginning of the 2,300 days in the Adventist framework is not stated in chapter 8 where the bulk of the prophecy occurs, but rather in chapter 9, which Adventists indicate spells out the beginning of both the 2,300 days and the 70 weeks prophecies, which they see as running concurrently with the same beginning point.

Agreed - I tried to go into that in my posts on Dan 8 and 9.

 

[tall73]

Does this generally represent the relation of the 70 weeks prophecy and the 2300 days prophecy in the Adventist understanding? (pretty sure it is not to scale!)

I drew this up a moment ago, so no copyright issues. Anyone can use it however they want.

 

[tall73]

Does this generally represent the Adventist view of the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy?

Again, I just made this, anyone can use it freely.

 

[BobRyan]

Does this generally represent the Adventist view of the last week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy?

Again, I just made this, anyone can use it freely.

View attachment 298667

yes - that is the last 7 years of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9 that starts in 457 B.C. (just as the 2300 years of Dan 8 starts in 457 B.C.) as you pointed out here #28

 

[tall73]

When it talks about “many older versions of the Bible,” what versions is it referring to? The Codex Sinaiticus? The Peshitta? The Septuagint? The Masoretic text? The Vulgate or the Vetus Latina?

We can get a bit more into it when we get to the critique phase. I think we are still in the clarifying phase, so that you can understand the full teaching.

However, I think that they are likely referring to the English versions available (primarily by that time the KJV) to those who initially studied out the issue in the time before Miller, during the Millerite movement, and also in the early period after the disappointment. It is particularly relevant to those after Hiram Edson's understanding of it referring to the heavenly sanctuary, and Crozier's spelling that out.

Miller understood the earth to be the sanctuary. As referenced, he thought that the earth would be cleansed with fire. At that time he likely also thought that the little horn power would be destroyed, which would be a fulfillment of Daniel 8, referring to the defilement of the little horn.

When now the focus is on the heavenly sanctuary, and the understanding is now that Jesus entered into the Day of Atonement fulfillment of cleansing, that means you now have to find references to the Day of Atonement in chapter 8 to make that all tie-in together.

In the KJV the same word is used of the cleansing in Leviticus 16 and Daniel 8:14

Lev_16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev_16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

For those who didn't read the other thread, the statement is from the denomination's review of the doctrine at Glacier View, and is in the glacier view documents, specifically Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary

Ministry Magazine a special edition

According to many older versions of the Bible, at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is to be "cleansed.'" The Hebrew word here is nisdaq, which has a broad range of possible meanings. Its basic idea is "make right," "justify," "vindicate," or "restore"; but "purify" and "cleanse" may be included within its conceptual range. In Daniel 8:14 it is evident that the word denotes the reversal of the evil caused by the power symbolized by the "little horn," and hence probably should be translated "restore." While there is, therefore, not a strong verbal link between this verse and the Day of Atonement ritual of Leviticus 16, the passages are, nevertheless, related by their parallel ideas of rectifying the sanctuary from the effects of sin. (emphasis supplied)

The overall issue being addressed in that statement is whether Daniel 8 has in mind the Day of Atonement cleansing. The "verbal link" would be if Leviticus 16 and Daniel 8 described cleansing using the same term. In the KJV there is a verbal link with the word "cleanse". But in the Hebrew the two words used are different.

However, as I said earlier, the larger issue is not so much the term. For the Adventist view it would be nice if the two terms were the same, but it is not required to understand the text to be speaking of the same service. And the term used in Daniel 8 does have a range of meanings in usage. In particular the rendering in the LXX translated it as

Dan 8:14 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἕως ἑσπέρας καὶ πρωὶ ἡμέραι δισχίλιαι καὶ τριακόσιαι, καὶ καθαρισθήσεται τὸ ἅγιον.

Lev 16:19 καὶ ῥανεῖ ἐπ᾿ αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἵματος τῷ δακτύλῳ ἑπτάκις καὶ καθαριεῖ αὐτὸ καὶ ἁγιάσει αὐτὸ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀκαθαρσιῶν τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ.

Some allege this is because the translators had in mind that Antiochus was the fulfillment, but either way that is speculation, and they still translated it as they did. And to my thinking restoring the sanctuary from outside defilement could well be categorized as cleansing.

However, the issue that Ford was raising, and we can get into a bit more later, is that the whole passage seems to have a context centered on something other than the Day of Atonement cleansing of the sins of all professed followers of God. The focus seems to be on the cleansing necessitated by the activity of the little horn power. And the statement does acknowledge that context:

In Daniel 8:14 it is evident that the word denotes the reversal of the evil caused by the power symbolized by the "little horn"

 

[tall73]

In Dan 7 you have "A problem" little horn , persecution of saints, then judgment then second coming.

In Dan 8 you have a "little horn problem" that grows exceedingly great that causes trouble for the saints, the sanctuary is cleansed and the problem is solved.

I think if he is going to understand how this all works you are going to have to give the Adventist identification of the little horn, and explain why. I would recommend noting comments by reformers so that it is not seen as a unique position, and referencing historical sources means less chance of running afoul of any rules.

 

[pasifika]

Does this generally represent the relation of the 70 weeks prophecy and the 2300 days prophecy in the Adventist understanding? (pretty sure it is not to scale!)

I drew this up a moment ago, so no copyright issues. Anyone can use it however they want.

View attachment 298660

I think the 2300days is within 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks prophecy is the entire timeline up to the second coming.. (the 2300days or about 6yrs is referring to the time of antiochus Ep which ends at cleansing of sanctuary during the maccabees revolt)..

 

[BobRyan]

I think if he is going to understand how this all works you are going to have to give the Adventist identification of the little horn, and explain why. I would recommend noting comments by reformers so that it is not seen as a unique position, and referencing historical sources means less chance of running afoul of any rules.

Ok I updated that post with a few more details but as you note I don't want to go too far down that road of the little horn -- because I don't want anyone to get bogged down in more Protestant Reformation topics before we have the big picture defined for everyone with the Bible texts that go with it.

Dan 8:13 asks "how long is the vision"...

It would be like saying "how long a period of time is covered by the WWII movie that has Hitler bombing England).

It is asking for the time span covered by the Dan 8:2-12 animated sequence of ram and goat and the little horn.

The answer is given in Dan 8:14 - 2300 days. And since all apocalyptic timelines use the same day-for-year rule as already agreed upon in Dan 9.. that is 2300 years.

Dan 8 gives duration of the vision but no start date.

Dan 9 gives detail to help explain Dan 8 -- and that includes the start date of 457 B.C. which means the 2300 year timeline in Dan 8 ends in 1844.

In Dan 7 you have

• "A problem" little horn ,
• persecution of saints for 1260 years during what some call "the dark ages",
• then judgment event is setup
  
• and then when that completes the little horn problem is solved (vs 25-26)
  
• Dan 7 says you have the second coming after that point.

In Dan 8 you have

• a "little horn problem" that grows exceedingly great
• that causes trouble for the saints
• then the sanctuary is cleansed
  
• and when that completes - the problem is solved.

The judgment in Daniel 7 corresponds to the cleansing of the sanctuary solution in Dan 8.

The Little horn problem in Dan 7 is in persecuting the saints. Which continues until the judgment completes and the 2nd coming happens according to Dan 7.

The little horn problem in Dan 8 is in "flinging truth to the ground" which results in distorting the truth about the Sanctuary in heaven, and the work of Christ as our High Priest.

10 "It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

• (persecution of the saints and deception of some of the saints)

11 "It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.

• deception regarding the role of Christ as High Priest
  
• deception regarding the continued function of His sanctuary in heaven.

12 "And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper.

• the saints are given over to persecution
  
• the work of Christ in the daily (regular) sacrifice is covered up - obscured by error taught on Earth.

The "fix" for that "little horn problem" is two fold

1. Preach the truth on Earth regarding the ongoing work of Christ as High Priest and the continued fully functional Sanctuary in Heaven. The truth regarding forgiveness of sins "the daily" so that each person comes to Christ "in real time" during their life time instead of "something else"
2. Bring about the conclusion of the judgment "passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 so that the second coming happens and all the wicked on earth are stopped Dan 7:25-27. (the Day of Atonement - judgment and cleansing of the sanctuary).

 

[BobRyan]

I think the 2300days is within 70 weeks prophecy.

No doubt that 2300 days fits within 70 weeks if we don't use the same day-for-year rule consistently for all apocalyptic timelines in Dan 7,8,9.

==================
Adam Clarke – Commentary on Dan 8

Verse 14. Unto two thousand and three hundred days

"Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years."

 

[BobRyan]

Miller understood the earth to be the sanctuary. As referenced, he thought that the earth would be cleansed with fire. At that time he likely also thought that the little horn power would be destroyed, which would be a fulfillment of Daniel 8, referring to the defilement of the little horn.

When now the focus is on the heavenly sanctuary, and the understanding is now that Jesus entered into the Day of Atonement fulfillment of cleansing, that means you now have to find references to the Day of Atonement in chapter 8 to make that all tie-in together.

In the KJV the same word is used of the cleansing in Leviticus 16 and Daniel 8:14

Lev_16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Lev_16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

true --
But as I pointed out - you can get the basic Bible teaching that judgment comes after the dark ages and before the 2nd coming from Dan 7 alone.

And we can see that the same little horn problem persecuting the saints is addressed in both chapters where in one chapter (Dan 7) it calls the solution "the judgment" and the other chapter (Dan 8) calls the solution "the cleansing of the Sanctuary". The same event that solves the problem is being given two different names between the two chapters.

So from Dan 7 and Romans 2 - we have a pre-advent investigative judgment that takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages and ends before the 2nd coming. In that Judgment Christ comes to the Ancient of days - the court sits - judgment is passed in favor of the saints and then persecution of the saints ends. And the second coming event happens.

That judgment is just as Romans 2:5-16 describes it in the failing cases and in the succeeding cases according to the Gospel of Rom 2:16 and Rev 14:6-7.

Dan 8 pushes the time line for starting the judgment - out just a little beyond the end of the 1260 years of dark ages identified in Dan 7.

All that is without very much at all of the day of Atonement details included -- just enough to show that the end of the 2300 years is the start for that judgment.

=====================================

You bring up an interesting detail in that the term "Cleansing of the sanctuary" as tied to the "Atonement" concept - for example "Day of Atonement" Lev 16 - is an interesting study.

I would add Ezek 45:18,20 to your point about Lev 16:30 -- where Ezekiel connects Atonement with cleansing.

Ez 45:
18 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “In the first month, on the first day of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary.

19 The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar, and on the gateposts of the gate of the inner court.

20 And so you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who has sinned unintentionally or in ignorance. Thus you shall make atonement for the temple.
=====================

And Heb 9 explicitly applies the concept of "cleansing the sanctuary" as part of the work of Christ as High Priest - in heaven.

22 And almost all things are cleansed with blood, according to the Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these things, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these


And here is one area where I see that we differ

Both views claim that

• Christ died once, one sacrifice fulfills ALL the sacrifices
  
• and entered once into the Sanctuary in heaven.

The difference is in what happens IN the Sanctuary in heaven. So in the Bible model that I am following

1. Inauguration is the focus for cleansing in Heb 9 see 9:18 (Not Day of Atonement). So we can't wedge Day of Atonement in as a past event in vs 18.

2. God is always in the sanctuary - and there is no such thing as "God not here" in the Sanctuary.

3. God's sanctuary has two areas as Heb 9 points out - representing the two features of the Gospel one for sinners converted and the other for judgment.

4. Hebrews 7 and 10 refer to the body of Christ offered as a sacrifice on the cross "offered up" as a sacrifice for sin. "bearing the sins of many" on the cross. Not in heaven - not in the sanctuary.

5. Christ is not "bearing the sins of many" in heaven - because that He did "once for all" at he cross.

6. Christ is seated in His role as "priest and king" Zech 6:13 - seated as High Priest Heb 8:1 Heb 10:12

7. When Christ stands up - as in Dan 12:1 it is to "wage war" to rescue the saints.

 

[tall73]

true --
But as I pointed out - you can get the basic Bible teaching that judgment tcomes after the dark ages and before the 2nd coming from Dan 7 alone.

And we can see that the same little horn problem persecuting the saints is addressed in both chapters where in one chapter (Dan 7) it calls the solution "the judgment" and the other chapter (Dan 8) calls the solution "the cleansing of the Sanctuary". The same event that solves the problem is being given two different names between the two chapters.

You bring up an interesting detail in that the term "Cleansing on the sanctuary" tied to "Day of Atonement" Lev 16 - is an interesting study.

I will wait to address this while the doctrine is clarified. I only addressed his earlier questions since he had asked it based on the other thread.

I will agree that there is a judgment before the second coming that we see in Daniel 7, though I do not see it the same.

I also will not rule out the possibility of a pre-advent investigative judgment of the sort Adventists mention, I just don't see it spelled out in Scripture as such.

 

[BobRyan]

Additional clarifying:

- Adventists indicate that the only names reviewed in the investigative judgment are those who are "professed" followers of God. The judgment of the wicked takes place at a later time.

Do Adventists agree with the following quote from the Great Controversy chapter 23?

Please note, I am only posting this as it is usually agreed upon by Adventists, and not to demonstrate the doctrine, or to claim that Adventists are attempting to demonstrate the doctrine with statements by Ellen White. But since this is a technical statement, I also don't want to be accused of misrepresenting the Adventist view. Again, Adventists, please add any context or clarification desired.

Here is the link to the context. I was going to post from multiple chapters of the GC in full, but per the copyright page of the White Estate I do not believe I can do so. Therefore, please do not accuse me of not trying to place the context.

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 23: What Is the Sanctuary?

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by [422] the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation—a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12.

1. That statement argues that the judgment must be concluded before the 2nd coming - which we already saw in Daniel 7.

2. It says that all - even the saints have their deeds brought up and the record reviewed - -
We already saw that in 2 Cor 5:10 and in Rom 2:5-16

3. It further states that the "visual aid" the mechanism for recording and then cleansing is the Sanctuary in heaven. Lev 16 already ties the cleansing and atoning of the people , with the cleansing and atoning of the sanctuary. The sanctuary itself is not "a being" that can sin or not sin so this must be referring to the sanctuary's role in atonement and its record of sin.

It is clear that there are two groups of people in Lev 16 - those covered by the blood and those who are not - (the saved and the lost). Today all Christians agree that these two groups exist and in the end there will be the saved and the lost.

All the saved are covered by the blood of Christ and all the lost pay their own debt of sin in the lake of fire. Jesus reminds us of this in Matt 18 with his teaching on "forgiveness revoked" for one of whom it is said "I forgave you all that debt because you asked" and then the final state was the command to return the full debt - with the unforgiving servant paying it all - in full.

Romans 11 is similar to that "you stand only by your faith .. you should fear for if He did not spare them - He will not spare you either... to you God's kindness IF you continue otherwise you to will be cut off". This shows that before the final and complete Judgment -- forgiveness revoked and a return of the full debt is very real.

Those texts do not fit the OSAS model - but SDAs are one of the Christian denominations that does not believe in OSAS.

 

[tall73]

Do any of the non-Adventists have further clarifying questions?

Bob or other Adventists, do you have any other elements you would like to spell out further? Thanks again Bob for taking the time on this.

I have read through all of the creation thread that you referenced. I am contemplating what I could post that would help, but am not sure yet.

When the question and clarification stage is done I plan to go through and note all the elements I agree with. As I do so I would encourage non-Adventists to do the same.

From there we can start to examine any elements where there is not agreement.

 

[BobRyan]

Do any of the non-Adventists have further clarifying questions?

Bob or other Adventists, do you have any other elements you would like to spell out further? Thanks again Bob for taking the time on this.

I have read through all of the creation thread that you referenced. I am contemplating what I could post that would help, but am not sure yet.

When the question and clarification stage is done I plan to go through and note all the elements I agree with. As I do so I would encourage non-Adventists to do the same.

From there we can start to examine any elements where there is not agreement.

Thanks - I am very happy to get all the Bible details that Adventists see as pertaining to this topic and to address any questions about exactly what our POV is on the judgment in Daniel 7.

In addition I am fine with the fact that this is a distinctive doctrine for Seventh-day Adventists so that means there must always be "at least one" point where our view would differ from the next person's view. Differences are fine in my book. But step one is to determine accurately what those similarities and differences are.

===============
As for details relating to Christ's ministry as high priest --

Christ is both priest and sin offering in Lev 16 -

Heb 8:1-5 says that Christ as our High Priest in heaven "is the main point"

He offers his body on the cross - and then takes up his role in heaven as high priest seated at the right hand of the Father, after the inauguration service that we see in Heb 9.

Heb 10:10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Jesus is "seated as priest and king" - He does his work - seated on His throne.

Zech 6:13 Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

In Dan 12 He "stands up" to mark the end of that work - and the beginning of vengeance to rescue the saints.

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The inauguration of the temple begins the service (but is not part of the daily nor a part of the Day of Atonement at the END of the year) - but Christ enters each phase of the sanctuary as He himself laid it out in the Temple. First he does the daily where the records/sins are transferred case-by-case and then the judgment phase dealing with all the records and final disposition in full view of the Dan 7 court - with each detail for each person as Romans 2:4-16 specifies.

again - the Dan 7 detail shows the relationship between WHEN the judgment is going on - and WHEN the 2nd coming happens. So also does Rev 14:6-7 show u that all the while the judgment hour is current - the Gospel is going forward.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on, and the gospel is being preached Rev 14:6 - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

======================= as for Hebrews 9


Heb 9 never says that “Christ [offers his blood once for all in the Sanctuary”.
Heb 9 never argues that the ministry of the benefits of the sacrifice has ended in the heavenly Sanctuary
Heb 9 never argues that the Day of Atonement event in heaven has already begun at the time of Paul's writing.



Heb 9:18-20 does state that the inauguration event in heaven is in the past.
Heb 9 does state that the benefits realized in the daily service of the sanctuary are current and ongoing. Vs 11-15

Hebrews tells us that Christ’s work is in the Holy Place – 9:12, 9:24
On the Altar of sacrifice (the cross) – the “body of Christ” is offered as a sacrifice – Heb 10:10 “once for all”

On the Altar of sacrifice (the cross) – Christ is in the role of the sacrificial lamb – “bearing the sins of many” – Heb 9:28

• But now “ongoing” Christ “appears in the presence of God for us” Heb 9:24 As our High Priest
• Christ’s High Priestly ministry – SEATED on this throne Zech 6:13, Heb 8:1, Heb 10:12
• Dan 12:1-2 – He stands up at the end of time to rescue the saints. He appears at the 2nd coming to wage war.. Rev 19:11 “wages war”

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Cleansing of the sanctuary is needed because of sin - according to Lev 16, Heb 9 does not say why it is needed for the sanctuary

God's doctrine on "Day of Atonement" makes it clear what it is that results in the need to cleanse

Heb 9 by contrast does not deal with the Day of Atonement. But rather inauguration - and also shows the "cleanse" fact applied even to the heavenly sanctuary.

Lev 16
16 He shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their unlawful acts regarding all their sins; and he shall do so for the tent of meeting which remains with them in the midst of their impurities. 17 When he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, so that he may make atonement for himself and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it; he shall take some of the blood from the bull and some of the blood from the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and consecrate it from the impurities of the sons of Israel.

29 “This shall be a permanent statute for you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble yourselves and not do any work, whether the native, or the stranger who resides among you; 30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is to be a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, so that you may humble yourselves; it is a permanent statute. 32 So the priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as priest in his father’s place shall make atonement: he shall put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33 and make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar

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1. The subject of the Day of Atonement is not for sins committed on that day in Lev 16. Rather it is for ALL the sins for the year.

2. Cleansing is with respect to sins - as Lev 16 point out - no other reason is given for it.

By contrast - Heb 9 does not say why cleansing is needed.