Adventist Investigative Judgment

[tall73]

Tall73: 2. Daniel 7 does not meet the criteria that Ellen White lays out for the investigative judgment. It is conducted prior to the second coming. However, It includes powers that were not composed of professed followers of God, such as Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. who have their dominion stripped. Per Ellen White the investigative judgment is only on the professed followers of God, so this would not match up. Moreover, the judgment pictured is on nations, and God has been judging nations from the beginning. The saints are delivered from the little horn power. There is no reference to individual judgment of individuals, or confusion regarding those who are the saints.

1. There is "wayyy more Ellen White" in your comment than anything I presented. you are going off script a bit.

Bob, you agreed the judgment was only on the professed believers of God and the judgment on the wicked was a distinct process.

So are you now disagreeing with Ellen White?

This judgment doesn't meet those qualifications.

2. Ellen White does include a great many non-Christians in the Rom 2:11-16 group who "have no scripture at all" and yet are saved. You have inserted your view of what she meant without looking into the full scope of those she claims are being justified - set right - in the sanctuary - revealed as born-again and saved in the way Paul says it in Rom 2:16.

Bob, we are talking about "professed followrs of God" not "non-Christians".

The whole of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were not professed followers of God. So the investigative judgment which is supposed to only look at the cases of the professed followers of God does not match up with this.

edited to respond to new content Bob added:

Your quote of her statement here May 7, 2021 #23 said this -

"This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12"​

hmmm "every man" is not leaving anyone out from what I can see. But the only cases that are "in doubt" are those of anyone having a claim to forgiveness no matter how slim that claim is.

She claims that the judgment is finished by the second coming. And she claims He brings His reward with him. However, she also claims that the only cases considered are the professed people of God. And she stated that the judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work.

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. Great Controversy Chapter 28

That doesn't match up with Daniel 7 where nations which are not professed people of God are judged.

Now are you claiming that everyone, even the wicked, even those who do not profess to follow God are included in the judgment? That is not what Ellen White stated. She indicates that the only ones who could be rewarded are those who make a profession, and the other cases are not considered.

And that doesn't match Daniel 7.

 

[BobRyan]

5. The portion of the Day of Atonement that related to entry with blood and presentation before the Father already happened in the first century, along with all the other blood-work.

While the type had many sacrifices throughout the year the fulfillment had only one perfect sacrifice of Christ, once for all. Following Jesus' death He appeared before the Father, presenting His completed sacrifice. And in that act all that was necessary for sin purification was completed.

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, He, having made purification for sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He then sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

He not only died, but offered the one sacrifice for sins forever.

Having done all of the blood work he sat down. .

Jesus is "seated as priest and king" - He does his work - seated on His throne.

Zech 6:13 Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

In Dan 12 He "stands up" to mark the end of that work - and the beginning of vengeance to rescue the saints.

===============

The inauguration of the temple begins the service (but is not part of the daily nor a part of the Day of Atonement at the END of the year) - but Christ enters each phase of the sanctuary as He himself laid it out in the Temple. First he does the daily where the records/sins are transferred case-by-case and then the judgment phase dealing with all the records and final disposition in full view of the Dan 7 court - with each detail for each person as Romans 2:4-16 specifies.

again - the Dan 7 detail shows the relationship between WHEN the judgment is going on - and WHEN the 2nd coming happens. So also does Rev 14:6-7 show u that all the while the judgment hour is current - the Gospel is going forward.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on, and the gospel is being preached Rev 14:6 - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you agreed the judgment was only on the professed believers of God and the judgment on the wicked was a distinct process.

1. Christ is speaking to "professed believers" in Matt 7 with many lost and few saved.

2. Ellen White said "anyone" who had any claim at all to the blood of Christ is included - and she also said that some people in heaven would hear the name of Christ "for the first time".

3. Wise men from the East - were not Jews, were from the nations listed in Dan 7 - and were also included. Not just the "narrow road" of believers in Matt 7 but also the "wide road" anyone with any claim at all as Christ points out in Matt 7.

Paul said that having no access to scripture at all "they do instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the Law written on the heart" which is New Covenant terms.

Your restrictive view is imposing limits not consistent with the author's writing you are quoting.

3. There is "no other judgment" where lost people are deemed saved - because no other judgment venue has Christ still in his role as mediator and high priest . Rev 15:8 makes it clear that all of that ends not merely at the 2nd coming - but in fact at the start of the 7 last plagues in Rev 16. So nobody will be saved at all if they are not covered by that Dan 7 judgment.

Only one Gospel, only one High Priest, only one Mediator, only one Heavenly Sanctuary - and only one judgment in Dan 7. And while it goes on - the saints are being persecuted according to Dan 7 - and the world is being evangelized according to Rev 14:6-7.

Saints and sinners in Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - since even the Jews were part of those empires during that time. And more than "just jews" were saved in the OT.

 

[tall73]

2300 years would be "many days in the future" and the vision was not unsealed and understood until we see it as an "open book" in Rev 10:8

A somewhat esoteric point that is not going to be of a lot of interest to non-SDAs unless I am missing something.

The vision was not incomplete. It was true and to be sealed up. The starting point was already contained in the vision.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression g]">[g]of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”


14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred h]">[h]days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The question is literally "until when" the vision concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression.

The starting point is either

a. the beginning of the events of the whole vision,

3 Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could d]">[d]withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great.

b. The beginning of the activity of the little horn since the question has particular reference to its activities.

“How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

Therefore there is no reason to impose the starting point from Daniel 9 when Daniel was already informed this vision was true and to seal it up before the events recorded in Daniel 9 happened.

 

[BobRyan]

The vision was not incomplete. It was true and to be sealed up. The starting point was already contained in the vision.

Dan 8
27 Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was no one to explain it.

Dan 9
21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

Dan 9 includes the start date/event - which was missing from Dan 8. The decree by Persia to rebuild - is the time in Dan 8 where the Ram is already risen and is dominant.

The star event in Dan 9 -- fits the requirement for the start of Dan 8.

 

[BobRyan]

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression g]">[g]of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”


14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred h]">[h]days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The question is literally "until when" the vision concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression.

The question is literally "how long is the vision". It deals with the length of the vision in terms of the time period it covers. But does not provide a starting event during the time of the RAM (which the vision says is Medo-Persia).

Dan 8:13 NASB "How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply,"
Dan 8:13 NKJV "How long will the vision be"

The Dan 8:1-3 start point is before the little horn. The vision does not start with the little horn.

It is like asking how long a period of time is covered by the WWII movie that includes the dropping of the A-bomb. You need the starting event and the length to know what point in time marks its end

 

[tall73]

Tall73: 3. Daniel 8 points to cleansing from the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement cleansing. When Miller formulated the doctrine he thought the earth was the sanctuary, and the little horn power would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus. However, since the Adventist interpretation of Daniel 8 is that the Day of Atonment cleansing is in view, the context does not match up. The cleansing in chapter 8 is not the cleansing of the Day of Atonement. Rather, as in Daniel 7, the little horn power is in view.

Daniel 8:11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

The context is the place of His sanctuary being cast down by the little horn power. It is in this context that we see the question regarding the 2,300 days:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The context does not reference the Day of Atonement, but restoring the sanctuary after the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary.

1. This event is parallel to the judgment event in Dan 7 and resolves the problem of persecution of the saints in both Dan 7 and 8.

Indeed, both deal with the persecution of the little horn. But Daniel 7 didn't deal with individual judgment, but judgment on nations, including those that were not made up of professed followers of God.

And the Day of Atonement presentation of blood for the removal of the sins of all the believers is not the focus in either. In both the issue is activity of nations, and activity of the little horn that is then corrected.

2. The judgment "passes in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 - and that is what limits the wicked from having more ability to persecute the saints.

Yes, God judges the little horn power because it persecuted His saints. The saints are the beneficiaries of the decision against the little horn power.

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

Judgment on nations and powers has happened throughout time as the prophets, etc. confirm.

3. The Sanctuary in heaven is also referenced as "Those who dwell in heaven" Rev 13:"6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven." - Rev 3: "12 The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God".

Yes the little horn assaults the saints, the sanctuary, etc.

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

But the little horn's actions against the sanctuary is not the same as the sins of all the people. This is speaking of actions of the little horn that God judges.

And He also judges nations in Daniel 7 and in Daniel 8 because He is the one that sets up kings and takes them down.

As in Job 1 and 2 - the false accusations against the people of God - are what is being addressed by this judgment out of the books of Dan 7 - where 2 Cor 5:10 says both good and bad deeds are being evaluated and Romans 2:4-16 says both good and bad outcomes are the result.

You don't have individual judgment on professed followers of God in Daniel 7 or 8. You have judgement against nations and the little horn.

Having the false separated from the true - and the good trees shown to be good trees by their fruits - provides the "solution" in Dan 7 and 8 that allows God to shut down persecution of the saints. Questions are fully addressed that way. Accusations resolved.

It appears that the problem is resolved by the judgment of the little horn altogether and its destruction.

And the judgment on the saints is seen to take place bodily before the Lord Jesus Christ, after which there are no questions as every knee bows, and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord (Phil. 2).

4. Lev 16 is explicit that the sins of the people are what is being atoned for on the Day of Atonement - just as 2 Cor 5:10 and Romans 2:4-16 point to the actual deeds of the person.

Indeed! And that presentation of blood happened with the once for all sacrifice and once for all entry into God's presence in the first century. That was the only time those things happened. And they will not be repeated.

The benefits of the blood work are then realized in real time as we come to the throne of grace for help in time of need. And ultimately they are realized when we endure to the end, and stand before the Lord. Those who believe in Him are not condemned.

But you are confusing application of blood in the sanctuary in Lev. 16 with review of books.

There were no books reviewed in the sanctuary in Lev. 16.

And the judgment in Daniel 7 and 8 is on nations and the little horn power.

 

[tall73]

Tall73:

4. We will stand before Christ Himself, in person. As was pointed out by the Liturgist in the other thread, there will be a judgment for each person, and it will resolve any issues of justice, etc. Everything will already be revealed when we stand in person before the judgment seat of Christ:



The Liturgist said: ↑

In the eschaton, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ Pantocrator, and our Lord and God, in the person of the same Jesus Christ who is our savior and the only begotten Son and Word of God, will judge the living and the dead, and Himself separate the wheat from the tares.


The texts that speak of this indicate that it is not a judgment in absentia before His coming, but rather an in-person judgment at His coming.

1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When the Lord comes He brings to light the things now hidden in darkness and discloses the purposes of the heart. There will be no question after that. And this includes Paul, a professed follower of God.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat. We bow before Him. We confess. We give an account. This is not describing a judgment from books without our presence. This clearly portrays a judgment in person by the Lord. And this includes the professed followers of God because Paul is speaking to believers.

1. Rev 22 when Jesus appears his reward is with Him - the judgment is over.

His reward is with Him, and He dispenses it after judging those who are bodily present.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

He judges the quick and dead at His appearing.

And that judgment is not in absential.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

2. In Dan 7 when Jesus appears - the judgment is over.

The judgment on the nations, the little horn, etc. yes.

But

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The judging of the quick and the dead happens at His appearing.

3. Saints are persecuted all during the review where that judgment is going on - I doubt saints will be zipped up to heaven while the wicked torment them and they stand before Christ to be judged - most people do not accept that idea as valid.

No, and most people don't posit this review going on of individual cases at that time either. Because the in person judgment is before the Lord Jesus' Christ at His coming.

And the scenes you showed were on nations and powers, not individuals.

4. Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while the people on Earth are responding to the Gospel

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
Rev 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”
Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The hour of His judgment is come is also speaking of the judgment on the beast power, and on Babylon. Babylon is judged and is fallen. To remain within her is to suffer with her. She is already condemned.

And the warning is given that the one receiving the mark will likewise suffer. And even here the judgment against these powers is proclaimed, but the sentence is not yet carried out. We see that in subsequent chapters.

5. Dan 7 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.

The judgment on the little horn and babylon, yes. That is why the people are warned to separate from them.

There is no "stand in person" in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up -- while saints are being persecuted on Earth.

Yes there is. For we not only "appear" before the judgment seat, but we receive what is due at that time.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

And you made no attempt to explain:

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

We also see this in the parable of the talents. Jesus returns and asks what the servants did with the talents given them. After the investigation they receive their rewards.

And:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

You have confused the judgment on nations and the little horn with the judgment in person before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[tall73]

Jesus is "seated as priest and king" - He does his work - seated on His throne.

Note the order:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. Having made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

The presentation of blood was already completed.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

First He offered, then He sat.

Zech 6:13 Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the Lord, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

We agree, He is a priest on the throne. He now ministers the results of that already offered sacrifice.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

In Dan 12 He "stands up" to mark the end of that work - and the beginning of vengeance to rescue the saints.

Agreed:

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

But the historical events of His once for all death, once for all entry, and appearance in God's presence for us already happened. And then He sat down to reign and administer the benefits of that blood ministration.

The inauguration of the temple begins the service - but Christ enters each phase of the sanctuary as He himself laid it out in the Temple. First he does the daily where the records/sins are transferred case-by-case and then the judgment phase dealing with all the records and final disposition in full view of the Dan 7 court - with each detail for each person as Romans 2:4-16 specifies.

There is no need for a protracted daily ministration as in the earthly, because He is superior:

Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

You didn't even address the clear Day of Atonement references.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

- High Priest
- Cleansing of the heavenly things
- Christ entered to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
- He did not offer Himself repeatedly as the high priest enters yearly with blood not His own.

He entered once for all with His own blood:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

And yes, He also inaugurated. But that reveals that He went to the Most Holy Place as well, because the inauguration involved all the sanctuary.

His one death fulfilled all the sacrificial deaths. His one entry fulfilled all the the entries with blood, and He appeared in God's presence for us.

Even Adventist scholars have been forced to admit Day of Atonement references:

Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary on Hebrews 10:1:

Compare ch. 9:25, 26, where the work of Christ is again contrasted with that of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement.

M.L. Andreasen in The Book of Hebrews:

Verses 25, 26. The priests entered the first apartment daily, the high priest once every year when he went into the most holy with the blood of the bullock and the goat. (127)

William Johnsson in his essay "Day of Atonement Allusions," which can be found in the DARCOM volume on Hebrews, lists 9:25 as clearly alluding to the Day of Atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest . . . yearly . . . blood [cf. 9:7]) (113)

Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series, speaking of verse 24, 25:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary. (227)

Richard Davidson, notes that vs. 25 is an unmistakable reference to the Day of Atonement:

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002, 79)

Felix Cortez states in his article "From the Holy to the Most Holy Place: The Period of Hebrews 9:6-10 and the Day of Atonement as a Metaphor of Transition" in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 125.3, Fall 2006, 527 (footnote):

Unchallenged references to the Day of Atonement in the central section include 9:7, 25

Notice this last one in particular. An Adventist scholar, writing in journal with an audience from various backgrounds, acknowledges that there is no challenge that vs. 25 is a reference to the Day of Atonement.

again - the Dan 7 detail shows the relationship between WHEN the judgment is going on - and WHEN the 2nd coming happens. So also does Rev 14:6-7 show u that all the while the judgment hour is current - the Gospel is going forward.

The judgment on the Beast power, yes.

The judgment on the individuals is timed to His appearing:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

The fact that the wicked are persecuting the saints during the time the judgment goes on, and the gospel is being preached Rev 14:6 - completely removes the idea that all of the judgment waits for the 2nd coming to begin.. Rather as Dan 7 points out - the judgment completes THEN the 2nd coming happens.

The judgment of the quick and the dead is at His appearing.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[tall73]

Tall73: Bob, you agreed the judgment was only on the professed believers of God and the judgment on the wicked was a distinct process.

1. Christ is speaking to "professed believers" in Matt 7 with many lost and few saved.

Bob that doesn't address how you have non-professed believers in the Daniel 7 judgment if it is only on professed believers. All of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were not professed believers. It doesn't fit.

But let's look at Matthew 7:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

On that day Bob. They will be there before Him. And they will ask Him a question. And He will speak to them. This is not the Adventist judgment in absentia.

It is at His appearing:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2. Ellen White said "anyone" who had any claim at all to the blood of Christ is included - and she also said that some people in heaven would hear the name of Christ "for the first time".

But that doesn't explain how all of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome would be professed believers. They are clearly not. It doesn't fit.

Your restrictive view is imposing limits not consistent with the author's writing you are quoting.

3. There is "no other judgment" where lost people are deemed saved - because no other judgment venue has Christ still in his role as mediator and high priest .

When Christ comes the judgment takes place. He has already done all they needed for salvation.

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

He offered that sacrifice way back in the first century, and by that single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being made holy.

He continues to minister the grace from that sacrifice. And When He comes to judge, those who have trusted in Him will be saved.

And it is when He comes that the secrets of hearts will be revealed:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at His coming that all the purposes of the heart are revealed.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Rev 15:8 makes it clear that all of that ends not merely at the 2nd coming - but in fact at the start of the 7 last plagues in Rev 16. So nobody will be saved at all if they are not covered by that Dan 7 judgment.

Bob, we are not saved by a judgment. We are saved by Christ. And when He comes He reveals the secrets of the heart as we stand before Him.

Only one Gospel, only one High Priest, only one Mediator, only one Heavenly Sanctuary - and only one judgment in Dan 7. And while it goes on - the saints are being persecuted according to Dan 7 - and the world is being evangelized according to Rev 14:6-7.

One judgment on the little horn.

But it is at His appearing that we are judged:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And there will be no question of His justice or His rule, because every knee will bow and tongue confess:

Php 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Saints and sinners in Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - since even the Jews were part of those empires during that time. And more than "just jews" were saved in the OT.

Bob, the judgment is on the nations, their dominion is taken away. It is not on individuals, and not all the individuals in those nations were professed believers.

Judgment is given on behalf of the saints because of the persecuting power that is condemned.

 

[tall73]

Dan 8
27 Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was no one to explain it.

Indeed, and before that the vision was said to be true and sealed up. There was no indication it was incomplete.

Daniel's lack of understanding was stated. But not that the vision was incomplete. If it were incomplete it could not be sealed up. Part of the confusion was that there was no sanctuary yet, having been destroyed. The 70 years of captivity was nearly up. And now He sees a vision of the sanctuary again being cast down by some power.

Dan 9
21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously,

Yes Gabriel was the same one who he had seen in the vision previously.

came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

And what were Daniel's pleas about?:

Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—
Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
Dan 9:3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.
Dan 9:4 I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,
Dan 9:5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules.

He is trying to figure out when the restoration from captivity and the end of the desolation of Jerusalem will happen. This was a source of confusion to him in Chapter 8. And now it is revealed more of the timing of the restoration.

But the vision of chapter 8 is dealing with something even beyond that of the casting down of the temple not yet even restored. That vision was already given, was true, and was to be sealed up.

This clarifies Daniel's question about the 70 years of captivity referenced by Jeremiah, and the rebuilding of the temple.

Dan 9 includes the start date/event - which was missing from Dan 8. The decree by Persia to rebuild - is the time in Dan 8 where the Ram is already risen and is dominant.

The vision was already true and was to be sealed up. There was no indication it was incomplete or it would not be ready to seal up.

The star event in Dan 9 -- fits the requirement for the start of Dan 8.

It does not. The events start with the ram charging westward. Cyrus conquered Babylon around 539 BC moving westward from Persia.

Dan 8:4 I saw the ram charging westward and northward and southward. No beast could stand before him, and there was no one who could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.

 

[tall73]

The question is literally "how long is the vision". It deals with the length of the vision in terms of the time period it covers. But does not provide a starting event during the time of the RAM (which the vision says is Medo-Persia).

It does, the ram is seen before charging westward which started before 457.

The Dan 8:1-3 start point is before the little horn. The vision does not start with the little horn.

I noted it could be either the start of the whole vision, or the portion of the little horn because of the qualifiers he uses.

But the start of the vision is the charging westward of the ram. And that was before 457. So if it is the whole vision, then that can't be 457.

It is like asking how long a period of time is covered by the WWII movie that includes the dropping of the A-bomb. You need the starting event and the length to know what point in time marks its end

The starting events of the vision are explained, charging westward, then northward, then southward.

And the vision was true, and was to be sealed up. There was no indication it was incomplete.

 

[BobRyan]

It does, the ram is seen before charging westward which started before 457.

That is not stated in the chapter

2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking, I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision, and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. 4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand against him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and made himself great.

The actions of the Ram are dominant in all directions - and this is from the start of the vision. There is no point where the Ram is going North and not west or south and not west.

1. You appear to be inserting a restriction that is not required in the parable/illustration.
2. Starting the 2300 years even earlier than 457 does not help your argument.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with these elements of the Adventist view:
- Agreed the Daniel judgment scene happens prior to the second coming, resulting in judgment on the little horn.

Speaking of 2 Cor 5:10

The texts that speak of this indicate that it is not a judgment in absentia before His coming, but rather an in-person judgment at His coming. .

There is no way that deeds of the saints (both good and bad) are being reviewed in the Dan 7 judgment and "again" at the second coming.

The Daniel 7 judgment was future to 2 Cor 5 -- and Paul was not skipping over the judgment that "passes in favor of the saints" to point to the saints being judged in 2 Cor 5. Rather Paul is speaking of that very future judgment in Rom 2, and in 2 Cor 5:10. They all describe the same judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

It does, the ram is seen before charging westward which started before 457.

You are inserting the start of charging west - that is not a restriction in the chapter.

You are free have that preference if you wish - I don't see it as consistent or required in the chapter. Dan 8 does not refer to the rise of Persia - it only shows Persia as already dominant -and starting the 2300 years before 457 B.C. does not even help your version of this.

In fact there is NO PLACE in the history of the Persian empire where you could have started the 2300 year timeline and gotten it all to collapsed down into a completed form at the resurrection and ascension of Christ 2000 years ago. Your arguments appear to be shooting themselves in the foot if you are trying to have it both ways just then. And there is no place where either a heavenly or earthly sanctuary would have been cleansed in the model you use for starting with the rise of the Persian empire and not 457 B.C.

 

[BobRyan]

4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"

Except it doesn't spell out individual judgment. It spells out judgment against nations and powers and judgment for the saints who were being persecuted.

Dan 7:22 "judgment passed in favor of the saints" and Rom 2 explains how that happens - showing that it is "individually" both in the case of the saved and the lost.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat. We bow before Him. We confess. We give an account. This is not describing a judgment from books without our presence.

Phil 2
9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

No doubt this happens in Rev 20 at the Great White Throne judgment -- but at that time only the cases of the wicked are brought in review - the cases of the saints where "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 already happened before the second coming - as you already agreed.

But you are compressing those two phases of judgment future to Paul's day into one as if it all happened in the Dan 7 judgment that you already admitted is - before the 2nd coming. I thank that is conflating too many events into one to get what you are looking for.

In those two phases of Judgment - one of them has this
1. Judgment passed in favor of the saints Dan 7:22
2. Persecution of the saints while judgment is going on Dan 7:24-26
3. Gospel evangelism while judgment is going on - Rev 14:6-7

The other one has this
1. only the wicked raised in the 2nd resurrection are judged
2. Every knee bows in the presence of Christ the judge of all.

 

[The Liturgist]

The texts that speak of this indicate that it is not a judgment in absentia before His coming, but rather an in-person judgment at His coming.

1Co 4:4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.
1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

When the Lord comes He brings to light the things now hidden in darkness and discloses the purposes of the heart. There will be no question after that. And this includes Paul, a professed follower of God.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat. We bow before Him. We confess. We give an account. This is not describing a judgment from books without our presence. This clearly portrays a judgment in person by the Lord. And this includes the professed followers of God because Paul is speaking to believers.

I agree completely, and would add that as a high church Protestant, I believe the Blessed Virgin Mary and the rest of the Church Triumphant will intercede on our behalf. I am not a universalist, but I consider it remotely possible, but unlikely given the scriptural verses and the extreme evil of some people, that everyone might be saved, or at least everyone who asks, but even then, our Lord warns us that He will say to those who are, in effect, as I read it, religious hypocrites or members of non-Christian cults “Depart from me, I never knew you!” But I do believe that as CS Lewis wrote, the gates of Hell are locked on the inside. I love his novella, The Great Divorce, in which one by one, denizens of Hell on a special bus to Heaven come up with worldly excuses to disembark.

However, as much as I disagree with Adventist eschatology, I did promise them I would refrain from criticizing the Investigative Judgement in this thread because I wanted to know what this most elusive doctrine, which sounded remotely plausible was. I can now say that I don’t regard the investigative judgement as being an eschatological possibility from an orthodox, Patristic perspective, but I intend to keep my word and not argue against the doctrine in this thread, as I want to build trust with the Adventist community.

 

[tall73]

That is not stated in the chapter

2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking, I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision, and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. 4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand against him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and made himself great.

The actions of the Ram are dominant in all directions - and this is from the start of the vision. There is no point where the Ram is going North and not west or south and not west.

Not all directions. All but East because they are coming from the East. And their Empire expanded in those directions.

Dan 8 does not refer to the rise of Persia - it only shows Persia as already dominant

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, Daniel, after that which appeared to me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in the vision; and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the vision, and I was at the Ulai canal.


The vision takes place before the conquest of Babylon. It is in the third year of the reign of Belzhazzar.

It begins in Elam. You can review the historical sources which notes that the movement from Elam into Babylonia started prior to 457.

Dan 8:2 And I saw in the vision; and when I saw, I was in Susa the citadel, which is in the province of Elam. And I saw in the vision, and I was at the Ulai canal.

The Ram then expands to the west, north and south from Elam.

Creative Commons license, by user Morningstar1814

Elam - Wikipedia

 

[tall73]

Speaking of 2 Cor 5:10



There is no way that deeds of the saints (both good and bad) are being reviewed in the Dan 7 judgment and "again" at the second coming.

The Daniel 7 judgment was future to 2 Cor 5 -- and Paul was not skipping over the judgment that "passes in favor of the saints" to point to the saints being judged in 2 Cor 5. Rather Paul is speaking of that very future judgment in Rom 2, and in 2 Cor 5:10. They all describe the same judgment.

Dan 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
Dan 7:12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Dan 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
Dan 7:19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet,
Dan 7:20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions.
Dan 7:21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Bob, the judgment is on nations and the little horn power. And it culminates in the saints inheriting the kingdom, which is subsequent to Jesus' second coming.

But the judgment of the quick and dead is at His appearing:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;