Freeindeed, your argument leaves God's vindication in front of the universe in tatters. According to your reasoning, the devil can easily but in and assert that 1) God has made robots 2) It is impossible to obey His commands 3) There's no point in trying to please Him anyway because He chooses whoever He wants - we are just pawns in a chess game!
Do you not see this?
There is NOTHING that God needs to be vindicated from. This is pure rubbish from EGW.
The devil has NO power over GOD! He is NOT the nemesis of Christ.
Jon0388g said:
I have seen this many, many times on this website. The 'you cannot take it out of its context' argument is the most reliable counter. But, I'm afraid what I said still stands. A verse can be taken out of its immediate context if it can stand independently, and be applied to other situations. I am worried that you do not have the faith in your Lord that He strengthens you to do anything. Including overcoming your sin.
I disagree. You can't pluck verses out of their context and apply them to other non-related situations as you're trying to do with Phil 4:13.
And DON'T worry about me. Christ strengthens me to endure whatever situation as he did for Paul (context!!!). He already overcame my sin on the cross. I worry for you that you haven't trusted in HIM to take away YOUR sin. You're still trying to overcome it by your efforts!? A dangerous and scary place to be.
Jon0388g said:
No: I choose to be saved.
Really??? You're giving yourself a LOT of credit. Do you believe that if Christ hadn't chosen you, you would have chosen him? Do you believe it's your choice that saved you?
Jon0388g said:
These questions are meaningless and you know it. Can God build a rock so large that not even He can move it?
You're claiming that YOU can do anything, and by your own admission, you play a significant part in your own salvation! I'm on the other side of the fence. 100% of my salvation comes from Jesus Christ. (YES! Even my response to him! From birth I was set against him. The fact that he lives in me now is ALL him and his miracle!)
Jon0388g said:
I am quite suprised that a confessed Christian does not believe that the power of God has limits to what it can achieve. Don't say I am putting words into your mouth either: you have already implied that we are powerless against sin - even with God's help. This I find disappointing.
You're putting word into my mouth (actually you're lying). There are no limits to God's power or to what he can do with it.
And man is powerless agianst sin! That's why Romans 8 says:
"The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. he sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit." v.3, 4
And v.37 says, "No, despite all these things, overwhelmling victory is ours through Christ, who loved us."
It's all about Jesus, not us. He overcame sin and victory is ours through him alone!
Jon0388g said:
This text says that we cannot save ourselves alone. With God, our salvation is possible.
Again, you're implying that with God's help we save ourselves. The verse says that it is impossible for man, but NOT for God. He saves us! We don't save ourselves.
Jon0388g said:
Again, your reasoning suggests that either 1) Nobody is lost or 2) God is unfair - why choose X over Y?
I didn't write the text, I just quoted it. My argument was that we cannot save ourselves. You're arguing against that point, which means you believe we can save ourselves (with God's help), which you've clearly demonstrated by your words.
Jon0388g said:
Are you serious?
Faith. That is what cast the demons out.
If we have no faith, we are powerless.
My Bible tells me Moses parted the ocean. My Bible tells me David killed a giant. My Bible tells me Peter walked on water.
Were these miracles done by the power of humans? Of course not! But did humans enact them? YES! "..to him who believes, all things are possible."
Our faith is not what does these things. It's who our faith is in. Jesus is the source of power and HE does these things for us and through us. Our faith is not the power itself, but we have faith in the One who has all power.
Do you believe that Moses actually parted the sea? Or did God do it?
Jon0388g said:
Freeindeed, you have not answered the question that many people have asked you. WHY ARE PEOPLE LOST THEN?
Because they are sinners and God's holy anger burns against their sin. They do not have perfect righteousness. (BTW, there's only one place to get it!)
Jon0388g said:
What do you do with this text?
"For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you." 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
I thought you said that salvation had nothing to do with man's choice?
Where does this text say that salvation is man's doing?
Jon0388g said:
And this:
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4
If salvation has nothing to with man, and is wholly up to God, then surely, all men are saved according to this verse! See the problems yet?
What? Incompatible with your understanding? Must be the context..... lol
I'll ignore your sarcasm. The text says that the Savior desires all to be saved. There are no problems with this text. It still doesn't show that man saves himself as you're proposing (with God's help, I assume).
It does go on to say this though:
v. 5-6, "For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and people. He is the man Christ Jesus. He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message that God gave to the world at the proper time."
Jesus purchased our freedom (not us). Jesus reconciles us to God (not us).
Jon0388g said:
You have not addressed the Scripture at all. Firstly, as OntheDL rightly stated, Jesus' death saves everyone from Adam right down to me and you today. Secondly, you are saying that God had not forgiven their sin yet. That is plain false. I hope I don't have to go into Scripture to prove that.
Sin was not permanently dealt with under the old system. Sins were covered, but they were not removed. In a sense they were put on hold, but not counted against them still. That's why they had to bring sacrifice after sacrifice, over and over again.
But the new covenant promised that sin would be forgiven and forgotten. This was not offered in the old covenant. The sacrifices never dealt with sin. It was Jesus who destroyed sin's control by being the ultimate sacrifice.
Jon0388g said:
Thirdly, whether God was talking to the wicked or the justified is irrelevant. God implores mankind to turn away from their unrighteousness, 'and live.' If that is not clearly asking us to make the choice, then you will never see it.
It's not irrelevant. It's the wicked he's imploring to turn. (This is all before Christ too!) The righteous don't need to turn because they've already been credited with Christ's righteousness and have his Spirit living in them. Why would those who have God living in them need to turn? Jesus is the Life. When we turn to him we live.
Jon0388g said:
Lastly, the passage states:
"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die." Ezekiel 33:13
If that is not a devastating blow to your 'Christ has done it all for us' theology and general OSAS undertones, then I don't know what is!
How is this a devastating blow to post-cross Christians who claim that Christ saved them 100%?
Jon0388g said:
If I ever completely turn away from my sin, God willing I do, it would be by my conscious effort yes, to employ the freely offered power from the throne of Jehovah, that Christ Himself successfully utilated to complete His earthly mission.
"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jude 24-25
I love that verse! It affirms the 1 Timothy passage that it is Christ who reconciles us to God. Here he promises that we will be able to stand blameless before God becuase of righteousness and what he has done for us. It's all about Jesus our Savior!
