Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

[freeindeed2]

Issues already raised:

Sabbath, we have a thread on it already in DST
Eschatology (seal, mark, identification of the beast, remnant)
Ellen White
Sanctuary
the nature of the law/obedience
approach to scripture/hermeneutic, proof text, historical-critical, historical-grammatical
Great Controversy Theme

The Investigative Judgment (Incomplete atonement at the cross/1843/1844) - Maybe this falls under sanctuary, just being specific
Old and new covenants

There are more, but the list is already longer than we can adequately deal with through this medium. I'm game AS TIME ALLOWS though.

 

[freeindeed2]

I think that would fall under "Great Controversy Theme." I will add it to the list. But please don't fall into the irreconcilable differences trap before we have had a chance to iron out the specifics. We are in the "let's critique generally phase." It lends towards extremes and polarization. The specifics of the texts themselves tend to bring us back to reality that not everything is cut and dry. That is not relativism. That is just the facts. These things are more complex than we are allowing for in this mode of conversation.

They sure are. Don't you sometimes wish that we could take 3 or 6 months and get paid to meet together and study with all of the resources across the board provided for us in an easy reference computer program. Toward evening we could all go out and play a round of golf before doing it again the next day.

I would enjoy that for a time. The fellowship would be incredible.

There is no denying we are currently at very different understandings. But if one or the other is to be convinced it will be by prayer and careful reasoning and sincerity.

The Holy Spirit lays conviction on the heart. I don't think anybody will ever convince anyone in here. The Holy Spirit may do some convicting but I doubt anyone would admit it here if it happened.

I have received many encouraging PM's though. I'm sure you have too.

God bless!

 

[tall73]

Issues already raised:

Sabbath, we have a thread on it already in DST
Eschatology (seal, mark, identification of the beast, remnant)
Ellen White
Sanctuary-investigative judgment.
the nature of the law/obedience
approach to scripture/hermeneutic, proof text, historical-critical, historical-grammatical
Great Controversy Theme

 

[tall73]

[/b]

They sure are. Don't you sometimes wish that we could take 3 or 6 months and get paid to meet together and study with all of the resources across the board provided for us in an easy reference computer program. Toward evening we could all go out and play a round of golf before doing it again the next day.

I would enjoy that for a time. The fellowship would be incredible.


The Holy Spirit lays conviction on the heart. I don't think anybody will ever convince anyone in here. The Holy Spirit may do some convicting but I doubt anyone would admit it here if it happened.

I have received many encouraging PM's though. I'm sure you have too.

God bless!

You would be surprised. Many people both have learned and admitted it here, and even changed.

It is not the venue that limits discussion. Certainly time does. But if you are going to have a hobby then studying is one of the better ones. And forums are a way to give lots of time to responses, to put everything in detail, precisely. They are in many ways better than some other forms of dialogue. But we have to be disciplined enough to use it. Even verbal communication breaks down when the parties don't really want to work with each other.

We just have to be orderly in how we conduct this or we will be wasting what time we do have.

Yes it would be fun to get paid to hammer out issues. Of course, they had that very thing for some time in regards to the sanctuary--but it came to no published conclusions. Which proved to be a bigger waste of time and resources.

 

[Jon0388g]

[/b]

Don't you sometimes wish that we could take 3 or 6 months and get paid

I like this idea. LOL!

Toward evening we could all go out and play a round of golf before doing it again the next day.

Even more... (Although I'd prefer a good game of football (Soccer))


Jon

 

[tall73]

Make it basketball and I am there!

Ok..I would even go for soccer. But I would need medical for when I turn an ankle.

 

[Jon0388g]

You would be surprised. Many people both have learned and admitted it here, and even changed.

It is not the venue that limits discussion. Certainly time does. But if you are going to have a hobby then studying is one of the better ones.

We just have to be orderly in how we conduct this or we will be wasting what time we do have.

Yes it would be fun to get paid to hammer out issues. Of course, they had that very thing for some time in regards to the sanctuary--but it came to no published conclusions. That is not to say some of the members didn't come to conclusions. They did over time.

I was just thinking tonight how fun it will be when we get to heaven and see each other face to face. I could very easily picture some 'I told you so' moments lol

Jon

 

[Jon0388g]

Make it basketball and I am there!

Ok..I would even go for soccer. But I would need medical for when I turn an ankle.

Something tells me you are pretty good at basketball...

Its all in the name.....

Jon

 

[tall73]

I was just thinking tonight how fun it will be when we get to heaven and see each other face to face. I could very easily picture some 'I told you so' moments lol

Jon

Yes, but I am afraid I will be told at least as much as I am telling!

 

[freeindeed2]

I like this idea. LOL!



Even more... (Although I'd prefer a good game of football (Soccer))


Jon

Way too much running! LOL! Fifteen years ago I might have agreed more! Training for a triathalon right now and it's kicking my tail. I've never done one and want to have that goal accomplished before turning 40, so my wife and I and two other couples will be doing one this summer.

I'd be the goal keeper though! The other team might score a lot of goals, but at least I wouldn't have to run around so much...

 

[tall73]

Something tells me you are pretty good at basketball...

Its all in the name.....

Jon

If only height really did make someone good at basketball!

It is a nice help, but far from a guarantee!

 

[tall73]

Ok, so which of those topics should we tackle first?

Weigh in.

 

[Jon0388g]

Way too much running! LOL! Fifteen years ago I might have agreed more! Training for a triathalon right now and it's kicking my tail. I've never done one and want to have that goal accomplished before turning 40, so my wife and I and two other couples will be doing one this summer.

I'd be the goal keeper though! The other team might score a lot of goals, but at least I wouldn't have to run around so much...

Lol!

If there is one sport we'd be taking to heaven, its got to be football. No other like it.

Jon

 

[freeindeed2]

Make it basketball and I am there!

Ok..I would even go for soccer. But I would need medical for when I turn an ankle.

I swore off of basketball and 'retired' after playing in college (SDA college). It wasn't my sport. I prefer to pound a volleyball down my oponents throats!

Of course, age has brought rotator cuff problems on my striking arm. Too much baseball as a kid and volleyball as an adult! I'm ready for my glorified body!

 

[freeindeed2]

Lol!

If there is one sport we'd be taking to heaven, its got to be football. No other like it.

Jon

I actually watched the World Cup this year for the first time. It was great!

Sorry to tell you though, I already know that it's golf that goes to heaven!

 

[Jimlarmore]

I must admit that Adventists have taught this.

Well, they didn't teach it to me. I have done a lot of thinking on this today. I think we need to examine what we are talking about here for just a minute. It seems there are a lot of folks who have a mistaken perspective on this. If you look at what the seal of God is you have to step back and look not only at the Bible but the literal aspects of what a seal is. If you hold a seal in your hand it's a tool to stamp an impression of significance for legal work. It has the name, authority and territory of the one whose impression it represents.

It's a seal just as the Sabbath is a seal but what it seals is Not Sealed until someone stamps it with the seal. It's the same with God and the Sabbath. We are not sealed by the Sabbath we are sealed by God. In this case the components of the seal of God are within the Sabbath commandment therefore becoming the seal of God. However, it is God who descides who is worthy of obtaining the actual seal on the lives of His faithful or unfaithful. The Sabbath and it's observance is only part of what makes a person worthy of the getting sealed.
Additionally, it seems Freeindeed has made an insinuation that teaching the 7th day Sabbath is the seal of God by the SDA church is some kind of heinous heresy. If they are at fault at this it is in not completely teaching what the actual sealing is not that the Sabbath is the seal of God because it is.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Koey]

One semantic clarification here. A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties. The law could never be the covenant between God and His people. The covenant was their pledge to obey the laws. The laws were the frame work and base for the covenant but not the covenant itself. I think this is significant. It wasn't the ten commandments fault or something wrong with them it was the people who didn't obey them as they agreed to do before their creator.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

When a law defines the terms of a covenant, the two become synonymous. The Holy Scriptures say this when they say that the Decalogue was the old covenant (Ex 34:28), as in "the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." The rest of the laws especially in Deuteronomy only define that covenant in greater detail.

That is why the Hebrew Scriptures are variously referred to as the law, the old testament, or the old covenant.

 

[freeindeed2]

The Sabbath and it's observance is only part of what makes a person worthy of the getting sealed.

This is the 'safe-to-be-saved' doctrine that SDA's teach. We will never be 'worthy'!

Jesus alone is worthy, and his righteousness credited to us through faith is the ONLY thing that makes us worthy. We are worthy because Christ has GIVEN (credited, imputed) us HIS righteousness, not because we observe or don't observe something. It is his Spirit that seals us, and the Spirit IS God, so it's a pretty good deal for sinful man.

I know you'll somehow disagree.

Additionally, it seems Freeindeed has made an insinuation that teaching the 7th day Sabbath is the seal of God by the SDA church is some kind of heinous heresy. If they are at fault at this it is in not completely teaching what the actual sealing is not that the Sabbath is the seal of God because it is.

Scripture says the seal is the Holy Spirit, and you have again just said that the Sabbath is the seal of God.

 

[ricb]

Tall, for me, everytime a person makes the statement that we will fail everytime we attempt to be obedient to God's Law, it is essentially the same charge that satan has against God which caused 1/3 of the angels to be deceived.

Jon

Interesting comment. Can you demonstrate that from Scripture? Or is this an extra-Bibilical belief?

 

[ricb]

look not only at the Bible but the literal aspects of what a seal is. If you hold a seal in your hand it's a tool to stamp an impression of significance for legal work. It has the name, authority and territory of the one whose impression it represents.

Please provide your source material for the claim that seal must have name, authority and territory.

You have already acknowledged that it is not a Biblical claim (so much for Scripture alone), so let us see your actual source.

Additionally, it seems Freeindeed has made an insinuation that teaching the 7th day Sabbath is the seal of God by the SDA church is some kind of heinous heresy. If they are at fault

Don't you mean "we" rather than "they" Jim? Are you trying to distance yourself from SDAism?