Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

[tall73]

The quote is provided both pre-flood and post-flood. Post-flood covers a long time. Reference to Noah's immediate family was in reference to pure race lineage that started off just after the flood pure because Noah and his family were a family of believers. Over time after many generations passed the families developed believers and unbelievers. This of course was not immediate or was it application to Noah and His immediate family.

Nor was it due to intermarriage.

Post-flood covers a lot of history over time. Through intermarriage the amalgamation of believer and unbelievers post-flood continued leading to idolatry and unbelief which is also in reference to intermarriage of believers with unbelievers leading to idolatry. This can be seen even in the historical records and scriptures in regards to Israel. Solomon and His heathen wives being a good example.

Sure, and Israel was not a "pure" race either, because at times it was filled with idolatry. Which is why it makes no sense to talk about pure races in Ellen White's time.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nor was it due to intermarriage.

Sure it was, this has already been shown to have occurred over time pre-flood through the sons of Seth and the sons of Cain (Sons of God and the Sons of men) that is what the quote says. Intermarriage leading believers into idolatry also happening post flood after many generations had passed with Noah's family of believers.

Sure, and Israel was not a "pure" race either, because at times it was filled with idolatry. Which is why it makes no sense to talk about pure races in Ellen White's time.

True no one said they were. There was a mixed multitude tagging along by the time they left Egypt and they once again were taking Heathen wives leading them into idolatry. This said Israel began with Jacob and his sons who believed and followed God over time believers became mixed with unbelievers through intermarriage leading Gods' people into idolatry.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The problem is this one doesn't work either. And I took it off the list since it is already clear that no race at the time of Ellen White was free of unbelievers. It was not just certain races that had intermarriage with unbelievers.

I respectfully disagree. The problem as posted earlier is in your definition of race and context to the development of mankind pre and post flood and not considering the contexts of the SOP quote you provided.

 

[tall73]

Sure it was, this has already been shown to have occurred over time pre-flood through the sons of Seth and the sons of Cain (Sons of God and the Sons of men) that is what the quote says.

I was stating it did not start with intermarriage. There were no heathens to marry for Noah's family after the flood.

Nor did Cain turn away from the Lord by marriage.

Now we agree in a number of instances people intermarried with unbelievers and were drawn away. But that happened in every race, not just certain ones.

Intermarriage leading believers into idolatry also happening post flood after many generations had passed with Noah's family of believers.

The first one couldn't be intermarriage. There were no unbelievers to marry.

True no one said they were. There was a mixed multitude tagging along by the time they left Egypt and they once again were taking Heathen wives leading them into idolatry. This said Israel began with Jacob and his sons who believed and followed God over time believers became mixed with unbelievers through intermarriage leading Gods' people into idolatry.

There goes one more pure race candidate for you. And you don't actually have any candidates because every race has been filled with idolatry and intermarriage, not just certain.

 

[tall73]

I respectfully disagree. The problem as posted earlier is in your definition of race and context to the development of mankind pre and post flood and not considering the contexts of the SOP quote you provided.

No, the problem is you can't find races without unbelievers, which would be necessary for Ellen White's statement that amalgamation could be seen in CERTAIN races of men in her day, after the flood.

So your definition doesn't fit. Better find a novel view since you already dismissed the other three.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I was stating it did not start with intermarriage. There were no heathens to marry for Noah's family after the flood.

According to the quote it did start pre-flood through intermarriage with the Sons of God (Seth) and the daughter of men (Cain)

Nor did Cain turn away from the Lord by marriage.

No one said Cain turned away from God by marriage.

Now we agree in a number of instances people intermarried with unbelievers and were drawn away. But that happened in every race, not just certain ones.

Problem here is application to the definition of "races" which is very broad in application.

The first one couldn't be intermarriage. There were no unbelievers to marry.

The quote contexts is to pre-flood intermarriage between the Sons of God (Seth) and the daughter of men (Cain). Not Cain and Able.

There goes one more pure race candidate for you. And you don't actually have any candidates because every race has been filled with idolatry and intermarriage, not just certain.

Why it was shown in the same quote beginning at Jacob and his sons. So no my definitions fit perfectly.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, the problem is you can't find races without unbelievers, which would be necessary for Ellen White's statement that amalgamation could be seen in CERTAIN races of men in her day, after the flood.

So your definition doesn't fit. Better find a novel view since you already dismissed the other three.

No. I posted to you the quotes contexts to sons of Seth (sons of God) and the sons of Cain (daughters of men), There is Abraham's lineage with Isaac and Ishmael, there is Noah and His family post flood. Goodness there is too many examples of a pure lineage. Jacob and his family is the pure lineage of Israel before it became corrupted. There has always been believers and unbelievers all through time since Cain and Able as there has been intermarriage with believers and unbelievers leading God's people into idolatry (e.g. Solomon and his Heathen wives)

 

[tall73]

No. I posted to you the quotes contexts to sons of Seth (sons of God) and the sons of Cain (daughters of men), There is Abraham's lineage with Isaac and Ishmael, there is Noah and His family post flood. Goodness there is too many examples of a pure lineage. There has always been believers and unbelievers all through time since Cain and Able.

Noah and his family were not around in Ellen White's time, and the races that were all had unbelievers. Even Israel, God's chosen people, had many unbelievers.

It doesn't fit.

 

[tall73]

Why it was shown in the same quote beginning at Jacob and his sons. So no my definitions fit perfectly.

Jacob and his sons were not around in Ellen White's time. And their line, Israel, certainly had many documented idolators and intermarried folks as you attested.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Noah and his family were not around in Ellen White's time, and the races that were all had unbelievers. Even Israel, God's chosen people, had many unbelievers. It doesn't fit.

It does fit. EGW did not need to be around in Noah's time. The quote you provided was pre-flood and post-flood. It does not say she was around or that the quotes are provided in Noah's time.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jacob and his sons were not around in Ellen White's time. And their line, Israel, certainly had many documented idolators and intermarried folks as you attested.

DITTO see last post

 

[tall73]

It does fit. EGW did not need to be around in Noah's time. The quote you provided was pre-flood and post-flood. It does not say she was around or that the quotes are provided in Noah's time.

No it does not fit. She said:

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. 3SG 75.2

This quote is after the flood. The previous were all wiped out.

This quote says as may be seen....she is noting you can see amalgamation. Why do you think that is?

Uriah Smith suggested some races where he "saw" it.

There were no pure races in Ellen White's day to see, by your definition.

However, if we took Uriah Smith's or one of the others, then you could.

 

[tall73]

DITTO see last post

“Amalgamation”: Ellen White’s Most Controversial Statement

Here is another possibility from Ellen White's time referenced in the Adventiist history article.

While this may seem strange today, for Americans during the time of the American Civil War there was this paternalistic attitude toward African-American slaves. Some expositors of slavery argued that “Negros” were created with the animals and therefore subject to the dominion of Adam. In one 1851 example: “Time nor circumstance nor climate affect not the negro race, all nature forbids an amalgamation between them and the Caucasians. Nature tolerates not hybrids, or mules, or mulattoes.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No it does not fit. She said:

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. 3SG 75.2

This quote is after the flood. The previous were all wiped out.

This quote says as may be seen....she is noting you can see amalgamation. Why do you think that is?

Uriah Smith suggested some races where he "saw" it.

There were no pure races in Ellen White's day to see, by your definition.

However, if we took Uriah Smith's or one of the others, then you could.

Yes it absolutely does fit. Here your providing the post-flood quote (pre-flood and post-flood quotes provided in post # 323 already) but your not considering the full definition of "race" pre to post flood to the continuing development and separation of mankind from God's judgements post-flood. Contexts of the quotes of course is to amalgamation with man with man (believers and unbelievers through intermarriage leading to idolatry) and beast with beast leading to the many different species of beasts that God did not create. The races post flood of course as posted earlier having application not only to those of like mind (pre-flood) but now over time mankind is further separated by common language (race); communities (race) countries (race), ethnicity (race), physical features (race). I am not sure why you cannot see this to be honest unless your just choosing not to see it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

“Amalgamation”: Ellen White’s Most Controversial Statement

Here is another possibility from Ellen White's time referenced in the Adventiist history article.

While this may seem strange today, for Americans during the time of the American Civil War there was this paternalistic attitude toward African-American slaves. Some expositors of slavery argued that “Negros” were created with the animals and therefore subject to the dominion of Adam. In one 1851 example: “Time nor circumstance nor climate affect not the negro race, all nature forbids an amalgamation between them and the Caucasians. Nature tolerates not hybrids, or mules, or mulattoes.”

The post here and the quote you have provided makes no difference to what was shared with you above as it is a continuation of the expanded definition or "race" already provided post-flood. I think this is what your not considering here.

 

[tall73]

Yes it absolutely does fit. Here your providing the post-flood quote (pre-flood and post-flood quotes provided in post # 323 already) but your not considering the full definition of "race" pre to post flood to the continuing development and separation of mankind from God's judgements post-flood. Contexts of the quotes of course is to amalgamation with man with man (believers and unbelievers through intermarriage leading to idolatry) and beast with beast leading to the many different species of beasts that God did not create. The races post flood of course as posted earlier having application not only to those of like mind (pre-flood) but now over time mankind is further separated by common language (race); communities (race) countries (race), ethnicity (race), physical features (race). I am not sure why you cannot see this to be honest unless your just choosing not to see it.

Because believer is not a race. And even pre-flood she didn't say believer was a race. She referenced the race of Cain.

And there was no race in Ellen White's day that didn't have unbelievers.

 

[BobRyan]

Because believer is not a race.

The "race of Cain" was a race according to Matthew Henry and so in the same way it makes the descendants of Seth - a race of man -- at the time of Gen 6. So then two races at that time and one was of believers and the other of unbelievers according to Matthew Henry and Ellen White and a few others ..

So then apostasy via mixed marriages ... "again" .. which was not limited to pre-flood people and even Israel's history demonstrates downfall in that same area.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Because believer is not a race. And even pre-flood she didn't say believer was a race. She referenced the race of Cain. And there was no race in Ellen White's day that didn't have unbelievers.

Once again your not considering the full definition of "race". A race can also mean groups of people with the same beliefs according to the definition and can also be expanded as applied to context from pre to post-flood application of "race" having application to individual meanings to collective meanings dependent on context to which it is applied (see post # 46 and post # 323 context linked). The context pre-flood was to the races of Seth and Cain (the Sons of God -believers and the daughters of men -unbelievers). So your not correct here.

................

I might leave it here guys. Thanks for the discussion Tall. We might have to agree to disagree as we seem to be going about in circles again. I do not know why you cannot see what I have shared with you as it is plain as daylight to me and completely agrees with the quote of your OP. Perhaps I will pray for you.

All the best for now

 

[BobRyan]

And there was no race in Ellen White's day that didn't have unbelievers.

Again... "not the point".

The point in Gen 6 is not that "one unbeliever in the race of Seth ended the world" -- I think we all can see that.

The point is that over time that practice caused the light of that race to go out - entirely - as Jesus said "you are a light set on a hill" and "you are the salt of the Earth" --

Taking that race that represented the race of believers and having defections that over time corrupted the entire group - was "the problem" - noted repeatedly here.

 

[tall73]

Again... "not the point".

The point in Gen 6 is not that "one unbeliever in the race of Seth ended the world" -- I think we all can see that.

The point is that over time that practice caused the light of that race to go out - entirely - as Jesus said "you are a light set on a hill" and "you are the salt of the Earth" --

Taking that race that represented the race of believers and having defections that over time corrupted the entire group - was "the problem" - noted repeatedly here.

The point is there is no race in Ellen White's time that was not full of unbelievers, not just one.

And your notion of pure and defaced races seems a very strange theology to develop to "defend" Ellen White.

I takes a strange statement and turns it into an even stranger theology.