Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

[tall73]

My posts respond to your view even if I add other content that might be helpful to the conversation and understanding of others.

Your post always adds a bunch that is unrelated then you want people to post the whole thing.

Since you cannot do what Bob did and put a simple definition, I will wait for him to answer the question.

 

[prodromos]

LOL! How many times has LGW left the discussion?
Proverbs 26:11 comes to mind.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would say believing in pure and defaced races is a distraction from the Scriptures from Ellen White. And no, you don't get to make up claims I didn't make.

Here is an updated version dealing directly with the quote context applied to the correct definitions of "race" (pre and post-flood).

Post-flood of course we start with Noah and His family there was only believers (pure race of believers). Over many generations as the populations of mankind grew, there of course are those who become unbelievers separating themselves from believers far removed from Noah (believers and unbelievers). Two races of people based on their belief and views which is one of the definitions of race. Let's look at both quotes pre and post-flood and plug in the definitions race (the definitions of "race" and historical use of race is provided from Wikipedia here in post # 47 linked) to context.

.............

PRE-FLOOD CONTEXT AND STATEMENT

At this point understanding of the races is helpful here as shown above but also understanding the contexts of the quotes you provided as there are two of these quotes pre-flood and post-flood..

Those who honored and feared to offend God, at first felt the curse but lightly; while those who turned from God and trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily, especially in stature and nobleness of form. The descendants of Seth were called the sons of God—the descendants of Cain, the sons of men. As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry. Many cast aside the fear of God, and trampled upon his commandments. But there were a few who did righteousness, who feared and honored their Creator. Noah and his family were among the righteous few. The wickedness of man was so great, and increased to such a fearful extent, that God repented that he had made man upon the earth; for he saw that the wickedness of man was great, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. {3SG 64}

...........

Instead of doing justice to their neighbors, they carried out their own unlawful wishes. They had a plurality of wives, which was contrary to God's wise arrangement. In the beginning God gave to Adam one wife—showing to all who should live upon the earth, his order and law in that respect. The transgression and fall of Adam and Eve brought sin and wretchedness upon the human race, and man followed his own carnal desires, and changed God's order. The more men multiplied wives to themselves, the more they increased in wickedness and unhappiness. If one chose to take the wives, or cattle, or anything belonging to his neighbor, he did not regard justice or right, but if he could prevail over his neighbor by reason of strength, or by putting him to death, he did so, and exulted in his deeds of violence. They loved to destroy the lives of animals. They used them for food, and this increased their ferocity and violence, and caused them to look upon the blood of human beings with astonishing indifference.

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him. He would not suffer them to live out the days of their natural life, which would be hundreds of years. It was only a few generations back when Adam had access to that tree which was to prolong life. After his disobedience he was not suffered to eat of the tree of life and perpetuate a life of sin. In order for man to possess an endless life he must continue to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Deprived of that tree, his life would gradually wear out. {3SG 64}

.................

Note this is the pre-flood quote it does not say amalgamation of man with beast but man and beast. That is the amalgamation of mankind with mankind (sons of Seth and the sons of Cain or believers with unbelievers). Two races of people based on their belief and views which is one of the definitions of race. This is one definition of race of groups of people of like mind in this case believers and unbelievers.

The other part of the quote is to beast with beast and the making of the confused species. Context here is shown to the species of beast that God did not create and the endless varieties of species of animals and in certain races of men through intermarriage (compare with post-flood quote and the definitions of races already provided)

................

POST FLOOD STATEMENT

Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood (post-flood) there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 72}

Note: Application of this quote here as posted earlier is to post-flood and of course starting with Noah and His family there was only believers (pure race of believers). Over many generations as the populations of the earth grow there of course are those who become unbelievers far removed from Noah (believers and unbelievers). Two races of people based on their belief and views which is one of the definitions of race. This is one definition of race of groups of people of like mind in this case believers and unbelievers but post flood it does not stop here. Over time we see the judgements of God from man building the Tower of Babel. Here mankind is again further separated by language, communities, locations, ethnic groups and physical traits, these also being further definitions of race as shown earlier in post # 47 linked. This is not very hard to understand once the different definitions or race are applied to the quote you provided and understanding the contexts to pre-flood and post-flood context of mankind and the quote you provided from the SOP. Amalgamation of mankind being God's people with unbelievers or Seth's line and Cains line (two races) amalgamating through intermarriage leading God's people into idolatry and and beasts with beasts making confused species that God did not make.

So understanding both context and the definitions of "race" show there is no problem with the quote you provided here in your OP.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LOL! How many times has LGW left the discussion?
Proverbs 26:11 comes to mind.

Yea too many times. Proverbs 26:11 is only an insult your side which I will ignore. I seem to pop back when I am discussed in a negative way behind my back in someone's post for some reason. Your right though it is really time for me to leave this one as everything that has been said has already been said and there does not seem to be any more new content. Thanks for the discussion all

 

[tall73]

Note: Application of this quote here as posted earlier is to post-flood and of course starting with Noah and His family there was only believers (pure race of believers). Over many generations as the populations of the earth grow there of course are those who become unbelievers far removed from Noah (believers and unbelievers).

Which wasn't by intermarriage by the statement above.

Two races of people based on their belief and views which is one of the definitions of race. This is one definition of race of groups of people of like mind in this case believers and unbelievers but post flood it does not stop here.
Over time we see the judgements of God from man building the Tower of Babel. Here mankind is again further separated by language, communities, locations, ethnic groups and physical traits, these also being further definitions of race. This is not very hard to understand once the different definitions or race are applied to the quote you provided and understanding the contexts to pre-flood and post-flood context of mankind and the quote you provided from the SOP. Amalgamation of mankind being God's people with unbelievers or Seth's line and Cains line (two races)
amalgamating through intermarriage leading God's people into idolatry and and beasts with beasts making confused species that God did not make.

So understanding both context and the definitions of "race" show there is no problem with the quote you provided here in your OP.

The pre-tower of Babel definition is the same as the post-tower of Babel. A race is a group of people.

The problem is that you went from the "race" of Cain and the "line of Seth to "believers" being a race. In the extended context you quote she mentions the race of Cain. She doesn't mention any race called "believers."

She ties the notion of unbelief to Cain's race. And she ties the notion of believing to Seth's race.

So race means just what it started out meaning--groups of people. And she claims one race was faithful, and one not--until they the faithful one married the unfaithful one.

Now post-flood, same thing. Race still means what it always did, groups of people.

But you still haven't explained how you have in Ellen White's day these races that are pure, and have no unbelievers. And the only way you try to get around that is to change the definition of race to be "believers and unbelievers" which she did not state.

She said race of Cain.

She said Negro race.

 

[tall73]

I seem to pop back when I am discussed in a negative way behind my back in someone's post for some reason.

Behind your back? Each quote sends a notification.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Behind your back? Each quote sends a notification.

No you did not use @LoveGodsWord. You simply used LGW to other posters here making claims that I believe were not truthful

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Which wasn't by intermarriage by the statement above.

Sure it was. Did you read the quote contexts?

The pre-tower of Babel definition is the same as the post-tower of Babel. A race is a group of people.
The problem is that you went from the "race" of Cain and the "line of Seth to "believers" being a race. In the extended context you quote she mentions the race of Cain. She doesn't mention any race called "believers."

There is no problem the problem is in your narrow definition and application to "race" as the times change post flood application to the definition of "race" expands as shown in context over time post-flood and application to the definitions of "race"

She ties the notion of unbelief to Cain's race. And she ties the notion of believing to Seth's race. So race means just what it started out meaning--groups of people. And she claims one race was faithful, and one not--until they the faithful one married the unfaithful one.

Yes pre-flood application to the quote. There are two quotes one pre-flood and one post-flood. This is also one of the definitions of "race' already provided based on common cause and belief already provided.

Now post-flood, same thing. Race still means what it always did, groups of people.

Of course it means groups of people but it means more the definition of "race" and it is applied post flood and to changing context of the development of mankind also means groups of people that have common belief as shown earlier; people from different countries; people of national affiliations; observable difference of behavior; communities; ethnic groups; common language; common physical traits (see post # 47 linked).

But you still haven't explained how you have in Ellen White's day these races that are pure, and have no unbelievers. And the only way you try to get around that is to change the definition of race to be "believers and unbelievers" which she did not state.

I did post on this some time back. Seth's line were described in the bible as the sons of God. Those who believed and followed Gods' Word until they turned away from God through intermarriage and were led into idolatry. Also, Noah's line also started off as a pure line of believer's and followers of Gods' Word until over generation believers and unbelievers separated then once again intermarried between the two races.

She said Negro race.

She did not say this in the OP quote. This was to an unrelated quote and topic and of course in that quote and different topic is also a definition of race and has application post-flood. So not relevant here to this OP.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

No you did not use @LoveGodsWord. You simply used LGW to other posters here making claims that I believe were not truthful

I did refer to you as LGW when talking to Bob, just as I refer to Bob when talking to you. That is reference, but doesn't indicate any attempt to hide anything. If the thread were an apartment you would be fully moved in, so there was not expectation you would miss it.

 

[tall73]

Sure it was. Did you read the quote contexts?

You will have to explain how it was by intermarriage that unbelief crept into Noah's line post-flood. There was no one else there but his line. Someone had to become an unbeliever for someone else to marry them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You will have to explain how it was by intermarriage that unbelief crept into Noah's line post-flood. There was no one else there but his line. Someone had to become an unbeliever for someone else to marry them.

Already explained in the SOP quotes. Intermarriage with unbelievers leading to idolatry. This of course over many generations of time leading believers to become unbelievers and increasing populations of unbelievers through each generation. Even the example of Solomon is a good example here.

 

[tall73]

Also, Noah's line also started off as a pure line of believer's and followers of Gods' Word until over generation believers and unbelievers separated then once again intermarried between the two races.

Ellen White said you could see amalgamation in certain races of men in her day.

By her day Noah's line was a whole group of various races. And none of them were pure or had no unbelievers.

 

[tall73]

Already explained in the SOP quotes. Intermarriage with unbelievers leading to idolatry. This of course over many generations of time.

You just said all of Noah's line was believers. So where did they find the unbeliever to marry?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ellen White said you could see amalgamation in certain races of men in her day.

Sure why would that be a problem if you understand the meaning and application of "races"

By her day Noah's line was a whole group of various races. And none of them were pure or had no unbelievers.

Agreed the application by this time applies to all the definitions of "race"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You just said all of Noah's line was believers. So where did they find the unbeliever to marry?

I was referring to Noah and his immediate family just after the flood. Not sure why you thought any different as I went on to explain changes over time to an expanding use of the term "race" as mankind's circumstances changed over time and turned away from God and His Word.

 

[tall73]

I was referring to Noah and his immediate family just after the flood. Not sure why you thought any different as I went on to explain changes over time to an expanding use of the term "race" as mankind's circumstances changed over time

Intermarriage was not the cause of unbelief there then. Because they were all believers.

 

[tall73]

Sure why would that be a problem if you understand the meaning and application of "races"

Agreed the application by this time applies to all the definitions of "race"

And there were no races of people in Ellen White's time that do not have unbelievers so the statement doesn't make sense.

All races of people have unbelievers, so it is not just "certain", so your view doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should consider one of the other views:

“Amalgamation”: Ellen White’s Most Controversial Statement

1. Genetic combination of human and animal chimeras.
2. Bestiality.
3. Corruption of animals by sin to the point that they are no longer recognizable as forms of the original creation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And there were no races of people in Ellen White's time that do not have unbelievers so the statement doesn't make sense.

All races of people have unbelievers, so it is not just "certain", so your view doesn't make sense.

Maybe you should consider one of the other views:

“Amalgamation”: Ellen White’s Most Controversial Statement

1. Genetic combination of human and animal chimeras.
2. Bestiality.
3. Corruption of animals by sin to the point that they are no longer recognizable as forms of the original creation.

Why? I already posted you my view as a result of reading the SOP quote by considering it's contexts to pre- and post flood intermarriage leading to idolatry as a result of my own study taking into consideration context and the word meanings and definitions of the history and use of "race" and it's application to the quote and changing conditions and development of mankind over time pre- post-flood as posted through this thread and again more recently in post # 323. The other views do not make any sense as there is no historical evidence of technologies needed for the develop genetic recombination. Bestiality is not possible between animals of different genus and even if your talking possible species that would not explain the section of the quote that says "as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals" and the last one does not match the same section of the quote already provided. So I believe the only one that I can see is in harmony with all the quote is the amalgamation of man with man through intermarriage leading to idolatry and amalgamation of beast with beast leading to endless varieties of species. In fact I studied this out before I read your linked post where is also is stated.

............

"Dr. Standish referenced four possible interpretations that are highlighted in our Ellen White Encyclopedia article. They are:

1. Genetic combination of human and animal chimeras.
2. Intermarriage of the righteous with the heathen.
3. Bestiality.
4. Corruption of animals by sin to the point that they are no longer recognizable as forms of the original creation.

............

Where we can see that the view shared with you is also one that I found on my own by providing the quote contexts and definitions used for race applied to context over time as shown in post # 323.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑I was referring to Noah and his immediate family just after the flood. Not sure why you thought any different as I went on to explain changes over time to an expanding use of the term "race" as mankind's circumstances changed over time

Your response...

Intermarriage was not the cause of unbelief there then. Because they were all believers.

The quote is provided both pre-flood and post-flood. Post-flood covers a long time. Reference to Noah's immediate family was in reference to pure race lineage that started off just after the flood pure because Noah and his family were a family of believers. Over time after many generations passed the families developed believers and unbelievers. This of course was not immediate or was it application to Noah and His immediate family. Post-flood covers a lot of history over time. Through intermarriage the amalgamation of believer and unbelievers post-flood continued leading to idolatry and unbelief which is also in reference to intermarriage of believers with unbelievers leading to idolatry. This can be seen even in the historical records and scriptures in regards to Israel. Solomon and His heathen wives being a good example.

 

[tall73]

Why? I already posted you my view as a result of reading the SOP quote by considering it's contexts to pre- and post flood intermarriage leading to idolatry as a result of my own study taking into consideration context and the word meanings and definitions of the history and use of "race" and it's application to the quote and changing conditions and development of mankind over time pre- post-flood as posted through this thread and again more recently in post # 323. The other views do not make any sense as there is no historical evidence of technologies needed for the develop genetic recombination. Bestiality is not possible between animals of different genus and even if your talking possible species that would not explain the section of the quote that says "as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals" and the last one does not match the same section of the quote already provided. So I believe the only one that I can see is in harmony with all the quote is the amalgamation of man with man through intermarriage leading to idolatry and amalgamation of beast with beast leading to endless varieties of species. In fact I studied this out before I read your linked post where is also is stated.

............

"Dr. Standish referenced four possible interpretations that are highlighted in our Ellen White Encyclopedia article. They are:

1. Genetic combination of human and animal chimeras.
2. Intermarriage of the righteous with the heathen.
3. Bestiality.
4. Corruption of animals by sin to the point that they are no longer recognizable as forms of the original creation.

............

Where we can see that the view shared with you is also one that I found on my own by providing the quote contexts and definitions used for race applied to context over time as shown in post # 323.

Hope this helps.

The problem is this one doesn't work either. And I took it off the list since it is already clear that no race at the time of Ellen White was free of unbelievers. It was not just certain races that had intermarriage with unbelievers.