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Adventist: amalgamation in CERTAIN races of men.

tall73

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There were entire nations in Ellen White's time that had very little to no Christian influence in their populations still evident in the 1800's. I "thought" we both would have that as "a given".

a. Name the race, and how you "see" amalgamation.

b. I do not pretend to know who was regarding the Lord in any race at any point in time. The Lord can reveal Himself anyway He wishes, and reveals Himself to everyone through natural revelation. And He reveals Himself to any who seek Him. However, the trend is towards most people not regarding the Lord, and few find the narrow way.

c. You have yet to reference the races that you could not "see" amalgamation in either. And that is because no race has followed the Lord completely. Even in Israel, God's chosen people, vast numbers turned to idolatry throughout their history, and forsook the Lord. So if your definition of "amalgamation" is the defacing of the image of God through idolatry, or failure to heed the Lord, then all races, not just "certain" would have those signs. And even being an Israelite in the flesh didn't make one truly Israel.
 
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tall73

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Those who prefer an "All Ellen White all the time" sort of discussion outside of the Adventist denomination may not be satisfied with my "bible answers to bible topics" approach - but I am ok with just leaving it as "well then ... we differ".

The irony is that Adventists are the "Ellen White all the time" group. They just read her ideas into discussions of the Bible.

So LGW in the other thread said on one table there were four commandments and on the other six. The Scriptures do not say that, but Ellen White does.

LGW said Paul wrote Hebrews. The Scriptures do not say that, but Ellen White does.

You believe Moses wrote Job. LGW didn't even know Adventists believe that, but when shown the Ellen White quote also seemed to then know that Adventists believe that. The Bible doesn't say it, but Ellen White does.

Here you indicate Seth's line was not idolatrous but Cain's was until they intermarried. The Bible doesn't say that, but Ellen White does.

I imagine we will find some other examples of what Ellen White says, and that you say, but that the Bible does not say. So yes, I quote Ellen White to raise these issues.

However, it is Adventists that are all Ellen White because they take her writings as an inspired commentary on the Scriptures, and even those who have not read Ellen White often wind up mentioning her views because they have pervaded Adventist discussion of such things.

So here you are saying there are races that have the image of God defaced, and those that do not, because of Ellen White's statements. That has not been established by the Scriptures. And most wouldn't even want to "defend" her by claiming that is what she meant--a system of pure and defiled races.

Of course, other Adventists interpret the amalgamation quotes differently.

But they all have in common defending Ellen White, even though they say they don't want to, and would rather talk about the Bible, etc. Because they still see Ellen White as inspired. And if an inspired author comments on the Bible, then they of course agree with that comment.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The irony is that Adventists are the "Ellen White all the time" group. They just read her ideas into discussions of the Bible.

So LGW in the other thread said on one table there were four commandments and on the other six. The Scriptures do not say that, but Ellen White does.

LGW said Paul wrote Hebrews. The Scriptures do not say that, but Ellen White does.

You believe Moses wrote Job. LGW didn't even know Adventists believe that, but when shown the Ellen White quote also seemed to then know that Adventists believe that. The Bible doesn't say it, but Ellen White does.

Here you indicate Seth's line was not idolatrous but Cain's was until they intermarried. The Bible doesn't say that, but Ellen White does.

I imagine we will find some other examples of what Ellen White says, and that you say, but that the Bible does not say. So yes, I quote Ellen White to raise these issues.

However, it is Adventists that are all Ellen White because they take her writings as an inspired commentary on the Scriptures, and even those who have not read Ellen White often wind up mentioning her views because they have pervaded Adventist discussion of such things.

So here you are saying there are races that have the image of God defaced, and those that do not, because of Ellen White's statements. That has not been established by the Scriptures. And most wouldn't even want to "defend" her by claiming that is what she meant--a system of pure and defiled races.

Of course, other Adventists interpret the amalgamation quotes differently.

But they all have in common defending Ellen White, even though they say they don't want to, and would rather talk about the Bible, etc. Because they still see Ellen White as inspired. And if an inspired author comments on the Bible, then they of course agree with that comment.

Sorry I respectfully disagree with your claims here. Let me just bring this up. Your OP was already shot down sometime ago by looking at the contexts of the SOP you left out and definitions of "race" at the time of the SOP writings showing that once again your claims in this OP like many do the scriptures have been taken from their contexts to try and put a meaning on them that they are not saying according to your interpretation of them. We have had the same discussions on many SOP quotes in the past with the same outcome.

Once context was added back in they were never saying what you were claiming they were saying. As posted earlier this is the same problem many have that apply this same method of study to the scriptures. They pull the scriptures from their contexts to try and make them say things they never said or they read into the scriptures what the scriptures never say (eisegesis). I only want to point out one more thing.

It is you that is bringing up EGW and the SOP here no one else from the SDA Church. In our conversations I have only wanted to discuss the scriptures with you yet you decide to run off from that discussion like I have seen others do in the past to try and change the subject matter to discuss EGW and the SDA Church? So let me turn the subject matter back to the scriptures and ask you. Do you not believe that God gives his Church spiritual gifts and that prophecy is one of them? Also, and just as relevant, who does God give His Spirit to, those who obey him, or those who knowingly disobey Him?
 
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tall73

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Sorry I respectfully disagree with your claims here. Let me just bring this up. Your OP was already shot down sometime ago by looking at the contexts of the SOP you left out and definitions of "race" at the time of the SOP writings showing that once again your claims in this OP like many do the scriptures have been taken from their contexts to try and put a meaning on them that they are not saying according to your interpretation of them.

I didn't put any meaning to them. I quoted them and let you supply any context and meaning you wanted.

That is because various Adventists assign different meaning, and so find different context to be helpful. Uriah Smith would not have referenced the context you did because he indicated a blurring of human and animal.

And those Adventists who think it represented pre-flood gene splicing would not reference the context you did either.

So I allowed Adventists to posit their understanding, put any context they thought supported it, and then examined how that matched up with the statements.

And what you wound up with was the view that some races have the image of God defaced because of idolatry. Yet, there is no race that hasn't had idolatry. There have been unbelievers in every race. So her view that amalgamation could be seen in "certain races" would not make sense if we use your definitions. Nor did you wish to point out the races in Ellen White's time in which amalgamation could be seen.

We have had the same discussions on many SOP quotes in the past with the same outcome. Once context was added back in they were never saying what you were claiming they were saying.

You have always claimed so, of course! But I didn't say what she was saying. I let Adventists say what she was saying, and then looked at how well that matched up.

This is the same problem many have doing the same with thing with the scriptures. They pull the scriptures from their contexts to try and make them say things they never said or they read into the scriptures what the scriptures never say (eisegesis).

Or they try to make the Scriptures say what Ellen White said.

I only want to point one more thing. It is you that is bringing up EGW and the SOP here no one else. In our conversations I have only wanted to discuss the scriptures with you yet you decide to run off from that discussion like I have seen others do in the past to try and change the subject matter to discuss EGW.

LGW, I clearly, many times, said I would go through every single Sabbath related text with you. You said people didn't have the patience for that. That was your choice.

I still made 459 posts in that thread, many of them discussing the law and the Sabbath. So you can hardly say I didn't talk about the Scriptures.

Now I already stated I bring up Ellen White. And why? To point out that you do as well, you just don't always recognize it. So in the other thread when you said there were four commands on the first table, and six on the other, that is a statement of Ellen White, not Scripture.

And you don't even have to be aware of the quote to pick up on it. Because the Adventist church often references Ellen White's thoughts.

Moreover, I quote Ellen White so that Adventists know what she says. Because as soon as you state what she says Adventists fall in line.

For instance, I am guessing you now think Moses wrote Job, though previously you did not know Adventists believe that.

Am I wrong?


So let me turn the subject matter back to the scriptures and ask you. Do you not believe that God gives his Church spiritual gifts and that prophecy is one of them? Also, and just as relevant, who does God give His Spirit to those who obey him or those who knowingly disobey Him?

God gives the gift of prophecy.

But the point of this thread, as some of the content in the other thread, is to see how Adventists relate to Ellen White's writings. They indicate that the Scriptures are the test of doctrine. Yet, if Ellen White states something about Scripture, they fall in line.

As to your notions of Sabbath requirements, you already heard my view on that, by your request. But you also didn't think it worth going through every text. So we didn't. It is off topic here. Here we are talking about Ellen White's statements about amalgamation, and various Adventists interpretations of it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I didn't put any meaning to them. I quoted them and let you supply any context and meaning you wanted.

That is because various Adventists assign different meaning, and so find different context to be helpful. Uriah Smith would not have referenced the context you did because he indicated a blurring of human and animal.

And those Adventists who think it represented pre-flood gene splicing would not reference the context you did either.

So I allowed Adventists to posit their understanding, put any context they thought supported it, and then examined how that matched up with the statements.

And what you wound up with was the view that some races have the image of God defaced because of idolatry. Yet, there is no race that hasn't had idolatry. There have been unbelievers in every race. So her view that amalgamation could be seen in "certain races" would not make sense if we use your definitions. Nor did you wish to point out the races in Ellen White's time in which amalgamation could be seen.



You have always claimed so, of course! But I didn't say what she was saying. I let Adventists say what she was saying, and then looked at how well that matched up.



Or they try to make the Scriptures say what Ellen White said.



LGW, I clearly, many times, said I would go through every single Sabbath related text with you. You said people didn't have the patience for that. That was your choice.

I still made 459 posts in that thread, many of them discussing the law and the Sabbath. So you can hardly say I didn't talk about the Scriptures.

Now I already stated I bring up Ellen White. And why? To point out that you do as well, you just don't always recognize it. So in the other thread when you said there were four commands on the first table, and six on the other, that is a statement of Ellen White, not Scripture.

And you don't even have to be aware of the quote to pick up on it. Because the Adventist church often references Ellen White's thoughts.

Moreover, I quote Ellen White so that Adventists know what she says. Because as soon as you state what she says Adventists fall in line.

For instance, I am guessing you now think Moses wrote Job, though previously you did not know Adventists believe that.

Am I wrong?




God gives the gift of prophecy.

But the point of this thread, as some of the content in the other thread, is to see how Adventists relate to Ellen White's writings. They indicate that the Scriptures are the test of doctrine. Yet, if Ellen White states something about Scripture, they fall in line.

As to your notions of Sabbath requirements, you already heard my view on that, by your request. But you also didn't think it worth going through every text. So we didn't. It is off topic here. Here we are talking about Ellen White's statements about amalgamation, and various Adventists interpretations of it.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. All of your tests, claims, accusations and interpretations to the SOP have failed from past discussions with you once contexts have been added back in to the discussion.

Now seriously Tall, who cares who wrote what? What is important is believing and following what God's Word says and Gods' Word says God only gives His Spirit to those who obey him not to those who knowingly disobey him *Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

According to John those who knowingly disobey God do not know him in 1 John 2:3-4 and Paul says those who once knew him and turn away from him or those who once received His Word and reject it in order to continue living a life in known unrepentant sin are in danger of the judgement in Hebrews 4:6-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

So what is more important, believing and following God's Word or not believing and following Gods' Word? Knowing who wrote what book of believing and following the words that are written in the book? Something we should all pray about don't you think?

For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men they break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Jesus says those who follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9.

So who should we believe and follow; God or man?
 
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tall73

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Sorry but I respectfully disagree. All of your tests have failed from past discussions with you. Who cares who wrote what? What is important is believing and following what God Word says and Gods' Word says God only gives His Spirit to those who obey him not to those who knowingly disobey him *Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

According to John those who knowingly disobey God do not know him in 1 John 2:3-4 and Paul says those who once knew him and turn away from him or those who once received His Word and reject it in order to continue living a life in known unrepentant sin are in danger of the judgement in Hebrews 4:6-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31.

So what is more important, believe and following God's Word or not believing and following Gods' Word? Knowing who wrote what book of believing and following the words that are written in the book? Something we should all pray about don't you think?


I think the same thing I told you before. Your appeals based on presuppositions we do not agree on are not convincing.

I offered to discuss every single Sabbath-related text, giving you the opportunity to see if we could find common ground that would make your premature appeals make sense. You refused to discuss every text. That was your choice. And this is not that thread. So get back on topic.

This thread is about Ellen White's statements on amalgamation.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think the same thing I told you before. Your appeals based on presuppositions we do not agree on are not convincing.

I offered to discuss every single Sabbath-related text, giving you the opportunity to see if we could find common ground that would make your premature appeals make sense. You refused to discuss every text. That was your choice. And this is not that thread. So get back on topic.

This thread is about Ellen White's statements on amalgamation.

I have not made any appeals based on presuppositions. I have only provided scripture. They are God's Words not my words. Of course you are free to believe them or not. I will leave that between you and God to work through and I do not judge you as we all answer only to God come judgement day according to John 12:47-48. I did not refuse to discuss anything with you that is simply not being truthful. In fact I am still waiting for you to catch up before you went off to change the subject matter to discuss EGW and the SDA Church.
 
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tall73

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I have not made any appeals based on presuppositions. I have only provided scripture. Of course you are free to believe them or not. I will leave that between you and God to work through and I do not judge you as we all answer only God God come judgement day according to John 12:47-48.

Yes, we will all answer to God, as I agreed in our previous conversation.

You are not God. And you are not on topic either. Get back on topic.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Yes, we will all answer to God, as I agreed in our previous conversation. You are not God. And you are not on topic either. Get back on topic.

True, I am not God but I share God's Word that are not my words but Gods' Word. Let me know when you want to discuss the scriptures until then of course we will agree to disagree.
 
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tall73

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I did not refuse to not discuss anything with you that is simply not being truthful.

Anyone can read the thread. I stated multiple times that we can go through each text and examine them. Then when we had only looked at a few you objected to looking at 100+ texts on the Sabbath question:

If we have to look at 100+ texts for example without knowing what the point of looking at 100+ texts without seeing how they connect to the Sabbath discussion I think your going to lose people before they can understand what your point is.


I offered to go through every text. You thought that would lose people

And you are making appeals based on presuppositions. The presupposition is that the Sabbath is required of all believers. And that was the point that was to be looked at by going through every text. But you thought going through every text would lose people.
 
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tall73

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So far we have three Adventist posters arguing for some variant of seeing amalgamation in "certain" races of men, that deface the image of God, while other races were pure.

Please note this is the interpretation placed on the text by those Adventists, not my interpretation.

None of the Adventists have yet said which races in Ellen White's day were the defaced ones, or the pure, however.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So far we have three Adventist posters arguing for some variant of seeing amalgamation in "certain" races of men, that deface the image of God, while other races were pure.

Please note this is the interpretation placed on the text by those Adventists, not my interpretation.

None of the Adventists have yet said which races in Ellen White's day were the defaced ones, or the pure, however.

Well that is not true. The truth is we have the OP trying to make claims of interpretation that the quotes provided do not say as shown once context has been added back as well as the definitions of what "race" means at the time the SOP quotes were provided. Of course both the contexts you have left out and the word definitions are all important to interpretation and it seems you have not considered there in your OP. These all of course are in disagreement with your OP and claims and accusations in regards to EGW and the SDA Church as already shown throughout this OP (see post # 43; post # 46; post # 71; post # 83). This is simply trying to keep the merry go round going when the ride is already over. Anyhow thanks for the discussion. We will of course agree to disagree. Let's talk more when you want to discuss the scriptures. I will leave it to you and others. I already left this OP some time ago when the ride had already finished.
 
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tall73

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Well that is not true. The truth is we have the OP trying to make claims of interpretation that the quotes provided do not say as shown once context has been added back as well as the definitions of what "race" means used at the time the SOP quotes were provided.

The original post didn't make any interpretation. It invited interpretation.

And Uriah Smith in the second post is one such interpretation, but there are several by Adventists. And he seemed to know what race meant in that day.

Of course both the contexts you have left out and the word definitions are all important to interpretation. These all of course are in disagreement with your OP and claims and accusations already shown throughout this OP (see post # 43; post # 46; post # 71; post # 83).

Your posts posited two different definitions of race. One was not supported by Ellen White's writings, and you didn't try.

The second is the one folks usually use. Which relates back to my last post.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The original post didn't make any interpretation. It invited interpretation.

And Uriah Smith in the second post is one such interpretation, but there are several by Adventists. And he seemed to know what race meant in that day.



Your posts posited two different definitions of race. One was not supported by Ellen White's writings, and you didn't try.

The second is the one folks usually use. Which relates back to my last post.
No, this is already addressed in the linked posts showing the context and word definitions of face pre- and post-flood you left out and are not considering. Your just repeating yourself here without considering what has been shared with you.
 
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tall73

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This is simply trying to keep the merry go round going when the ride is already over.


The merry go round is still turning. Haven't you read Bob's posts discussing defaced and non-defaced races?

Of course neither he nor you will name the "certain" races in Ellen White's day in which amalgamation is seen, which defaces the image of God. Nor will you name the races where it is not seen, who are not defaced.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The merry go round is still turning. Haven't you read Bob's posts discussing defaced and non-defaced races?

Of course neither he nor you will name the "certain" races in Ellen White's day in which amalgamation is seen, which defaces the image of God. Nor will you name the races where it is not seen, who are not defaced.
Not really. Both pre-flood and post-flood definitions of race have already provided along with context in the linked posts. Your just repeating yourself again. Thanks for the discussion though. I am out for now. :wave:
 
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tall73

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POST FLOOD APPLICATION TO RACE; populations of people' communities; Ethnic groups; common languages and physical traits.

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 75.2}

Name the "certain races" And name the others that are not showing amalgamation.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 75.2}

Name the "certain races" And name the others that are not showing amalgamation.

There are more then one EGW quotes to different application to pre and post-flood with different application to race. Already posted your this is just repetition. (same merry go round ride that has already ended some time ago). Do you have anything new to add? The term for races by the way is already answered in the definitions provided already shared with you in the linked posts already.
 
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tall73

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There are more then one EGW quotes to different application to pre and post-flood with different application to race. Already posted your this is just repetition. (same merry go round ride that has already ended some time ago)


I am asking you about this one:

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 75.2}


Name the certain races. And name the ones not in the certain races.

I am using the definition you supplied for post-flood:

LGW: POST FLOOD APPLICATION TO RACE; populations of people' communities; Ethnic groups; common languages and physical traits.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I am asking you about this one:

Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {3SG 75.2}

Name the certain races. And name the ones not in the certain races.

The term for races by the way is already answered in the definitions provided already shared with you in the linked posts already. This is only more repetition while ignoring what has already been shared with you by providing the contexts you have left out and the word definitions of "race" used at the time when these quotes were written. Now do you have anything else new?
 
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