Adventism refuted by Orthodoxy

[Paul Yohannan]

Babylon controlled the world, so did the Meds, the Greeks and the Romans, just not every inch if it. Each power controlled more and more of it. The question was why was the orthodox church not bought into the prophecies, because they were never a world power.

This is of course entirely untrue, as even a cursory knowledge of history would reveal. The Ottoman Empire and Russia, for example, played a pivotal role in world history between the 13th and 19th centuries, when the Inquisition was in effect.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

This topic is not about which group has the most members. The point is that most denominations do not engage in "Communion with the Dead" and we both know it. So it cannot be cast as "Just SDAs" vs Orthodux.

On this point you are mistaken; the subject of prayers for the deceased and the communion of the saints (who are not dead by the way; they are more alive than you or I are alive) is a tangent, which is distracting us from the actual topic, which is my argument that since Orthodox doctrine is more extreme than Catholic doctrine in a direction contrary to Adventist values, that this refutes Adventist prophecies relating to Rome, and subsequently, the "whole enchilada."

 

[mmksparbud]

This is of course entirely untrue, as even a cursory knowledge of history would reveal. The Ottoman Empire and Russia, for example, played a pivotal role in world history between the 13th and 19th centuries, when the Inquisition was in effect.

Yes, pivotal role----biblical prophecies are not about countries that okayed a pivotal role--they are dealing strictly with world powers. China and Japan and India had their roles too, but are not part of what is being prophesied about. It is the Catholic church that took over in power after the Roman Empire, It did so through religion. There is no comparison between the Orthodox church and the Catholic church as far as power and control over
land and governments and people goes. You're attempts at minimizing it's power are simply because it refutes your attempts at refuting us. It is blinding you to the clear facts.

"Since 313 A.D., when Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire, its power has been in near-constant growth.

The church was able to acquire land, most notably the Papal States surrounding Rome, convert pagan temples and claim relics for itself. Over 300 years, it became one of Europe’s largest landowners.

For the next thousand years, tithes and tributes flowed in from all over Europe. Non-Christians and even fellow Christians were killed and their property confiscated. For example, the Fourth Crusade and the sack of Constantinople in the early 13th century brought it gold, money and jewels."
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wealth-of-roman-catholic-church-impossible-to-calculate

 

[BobRyan]

Babylon controlled the world, so did the Meds, the Greeks and the Romans, just not every inch if it. Each power controlled more and more of it. The question was why was the orthodox church not bought into the prophecies, because they were never a world power.

Indeed they did not control Russia or China or ...

But still they are listed in Daniel 2 and 7 and 8. The Bible has a specific focus.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not understand why there would be any problem with Communion with the Dead given that in dying and rising Jesus conquered death, and the meaning and impasse of death as the full stop at the end of life has changed irrevocably, for death is now simply the gateway to immortality for those who die in Christ.

1. But you would agree that it is irrefutable that most denominations condemn the idea of "Communion with the Dead" be it seance, necromancy or any other form of it. Yet we all argue that Christ is risen from the dead. This is irrefutable.

2. And the Bible condemns it - as we see in Isaiah 8:19

3. And even the RCC provides a good explanation of it in a Q&A in Catholic Digest that "removes all doubt".


============================

Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129

“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…

Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.

===============================
Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints (CCC958 : Communion with the dead.) and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”

Ans:

“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!


The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!


They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

There is a bit of a "long tail" effect with denominations.
Collectively, the Orthodox and Catholics represent the second largest and largest denominations

And Christianity Today listed the Seventh-day Adventist church as the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world last year -
And the Jews were much larger than all the Christian church in the first century

This topic is not about which group has the most members. The point is that most denominations do not engage in "Communion with the Dead" and we both know it. So it cannot be cast as "Just SDAs" vs Orthodux.

, and together with high church Anglicans like my colleage Phillip

Do Anglicans claim to pray to the dead?? Maybe your colleague Phillip and clarify that for us.

What is more, the "Communion with the dead" is neither seance nor necromancy, and to liken it to such is deeply offensive.

Aside from "proof by taking offense" what is your factual argument for the conclusion that communion with the dead is not necromancy?? Given that most denominations claim that Communion with the Dead is against the Bible - what argument would you make that even so they should not view it as necromancy? Just looking for facts not emotions.

Necromancy is "defined" as "the supposed practice of communicating with the dead" -- your own doctrine is "Communion with the Dead" and the idea is to pray to them.

On this point you are mistaken; the subject of prayers for the deceased and the communion of the saints (who are not dead by the way; they are more alive than you or I are alive) is a tangent

The title of the CCC958 doctrine is "Communion with the DEAD" -- it not "communion with the living".

Hence the connection to the definition for "necromancy"

And Paul uses the term "the DEAD in Christ" not the "more alive than we are -- in Christ".

1 Thess 4
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

, which is distracting us from the actual topic, which is my argument that since Orthodox doctrine is more extreme than Catholic doctrine in a direction contrary to Adventist values, that this refutes Adventist prophecies relating to Rome, and subsequently, the "whole enchilada."

In this case you claim that you hold to their same CCC958 doctrine is "Communion with the DEAD" -- did you not??

As for "selecting whatever church you 'prefer' to be the main denomination to oppose" -- that is not at all the way this worked out.

There is a somewhat me-centered view that "other religions arise" just because they don't like yours -- they simply get up on the wrong side of the bed and say "hey -- today we don't like Methodists... or Baptists, ... or this particular Orthodox church .... or that particular Catholic church".

In that somewhat mythical world you could argue for "someone else not to like" and give some reasons.

But 'in reality" most protestant groups came into being based on "sola scriptura" reasons - where this or that doctrine is found to be Bible based and then it is also found that the Bible specifically identifies key players in history that promote truth - or promote persecution and error.

So it is not at all of the form "hey we woke up today really miffed about such-and-such a denomination".

 

[BobRyan]

On this point you are mistaken; the subject of prayers for the deceased and the communion of the saints (who are not dead by the way; they are more alive than you or I are alive) is a tangent, which is distracting us from the actual topic

It is your own tangent on your own thread

I propose that if one regards the Catholic Church as bad, the Orthodox must be regarded as infinitely worse. Whereas the Roman mass ends with "Ite, missa est," which simply means "Go, it is the dismissal," the Eastern Orthodox liturgy ends with petitions for the intercession of several saints.

CCC 958 "Communion with the DEAD"

That is a Catholic doctrine in their Catechism - no doubt you have something similar. I am not convinced that one of you is better or worse off than the other in that regard.

So then you post this

I propose that if one regards the Catholic Church as bad, the Orthodox must be regarded as infinitely worse. Whereas the Roman mass ends with "Ite, missa est," which simply means "Go, it is the dismissal," the Eastern Orthodox liturgy ends with petitions for the intercession of several saints.

And I responded with this


CCC 958 "Communion with the DEAD"

That is a Catholic doctrine in their Catechism - no doubt you have something similar. I am not convinced that one of you is better or worse off than the other in that regard.

 

[BobRyan]

This is of course entirely untrue, as even a cursory knowledge of history would reveal. The Ottoman Empire and Russia, for example, played a pivotal role in world history between the 13th and 19th centuries, when the Inquisition was in effect.

Nice - but they are not in Daniel 2 or 7 or Daniel 8 which deals with more than 1260 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. The focus of the SDA church is on Bible doctrine - it is on what the Bible focuses on.

 

[Philip_B]

Do Anglicans claim to pray to the dead?? Maybe your colleague Phillip and clarify that for us.

1] My name is Philip with one [L]. My family didn't have a lot of L's when I was growing up!
2] I am not sure why the term colleague is appropriate - I would see Paul and myself as 'brothers in Christ'
3] Anglicans make few claims - we have no creeds of our own save the creeds of the Catholic Church, we have no sacred texts beyond the canon of the Old and New Testament, we have no particular rite, custom or sacrament save that which we have received from the saints of old including Alban, Cuthbert, Botolph, Wilfred, Augustine, Theodore, Mother Julian, Bede, Stigand, Anslem, and many many more.

Dead is an interesting word to use when we are talking about the Church, and I am not sure that it has a lot of meaning in the context of the prayerful and sacramental life of the Church, as in Christ we claim they are alive who have passed through the gate that leads beyond to the new day.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Nicene Creed​

I am not sure what your understanding of prayer is in this context. For me prayer is not so much about directions as it is about celebration of the community we have in Christ. Worship is part of our prayer life in Christ, and worship is directed to God.

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Article 1​

Prayer life for Anglicans includes Intercession and Supplication, Thanksgiving, Confession and Adoration. These can be summed up as Please and Thank-you, Ooops and WOW! As Anglicans we pray together, and we pray alone. We pray for ourselves (supplication) and we pray for others (intercession). A dear friend of mine is in the closing stages of a battle with cancer and I have been praying for him, that God would watch over and care for him. Now I believe that God does watch over and care for him, but that does not preclude that I would uphold him in the presence of saints and angels and all the company of heaven. I suspect that the question you are asking me is that come the time (as it surely will) that his heart ceases to beat and his brain waves can no longer be detected, is it all over red rover, or can I trust the promises of Christ and continue to share in the love of God with him in communion with saints and angels and all the company of heaven.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Nicene Creed​

Please note that I would never presume to speak for all Anglicans, for we are divers yet find our unity of Christ.

May the souls of the faithful departed Rest in Peace and Rise in Glory!

 

[BobRyan]

1] My name is Philip with one [L]. My family didn't have a lot of L's when I was growing up!
2] I am not sure why the term colleague is appropriate - I would see Paul and myself as 'brothers in Christ'
3] Anglicans make few claims - we have no creeds of our own save the creeds of the Catholic Church,

Greetings Philip.

So then you just want me to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) to get the details?

we have no sacred texts beyond the canon of the Old and New Testament, we have no particular rite, custom or sacrament save that which we have received from the saints of old including Alban, Cuthbert, Botolph, Wilfred, Augustine, Theodore, Mother Julian, Bede, Stigand, Anslem, and many many more.

Do you accept/reject the "Westminster Confession of Faith"?

Dead is an interesting word to use when we are talking about the Church, and I am not sure that it has a lot of meaning in the context of the prayerful and sacramental life of the Church,

So then the Bible includes one use of it - that we are using here.

"the DEAD in Christ"

1 Thess 4
"13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."



Another example in CCC958

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129

Question:

“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints (CCC958 : Communion with the dead.) and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

========================================

Prayer life for Anglicans includes Intercession and Supplication, Thanksgiving, Confession and Adoration. These can be summed up as Please and Thank-you, Ooops and WOW! As Anglicans we pray together, and we pray alone. We pray for ourselves (supplication) and we pray for others (intercession).

As far as I know - that applies equally to all Christian denominations on the planet.

The question was specifically about "Communion with the Dead" CCC958 -- praying to what Paul calls 'the DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4.

I suspect that the question you are asking me is that come the time (as it surely will) that his heart ceases to beat and his brain waves can no longer be detected, is it all over red rover, or can I trust the promises of Christ and continue to share in the love of God with him in communion with saints and angels and all the company of heaven.

More pointedly - does the Anglican church promote the idea of praying to your departed friend and either asking favors of him, praise him for something or offer to do favors for him that will help him in his afterlife?

 

[Philip_B]

So then you just want me to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) to get the details?

I refer to the Catholic Church that we refer to in the Nicene Creed.

Do you accept/reject the "Westminster Confession of Faith"?

I have no opinion of it. It has never been an Anglican Document. We are not a Confessional Church.

"the DEAD in Christ"

I take this to mean physically dead yet alive in Christ

More pointedly - can you pray to your departed friend and either ask favors of him, praise him for something or offer to do favors for him that will help him in his afterlife?

I don't get this 'pray to' business. Surely if we cannot continue to share in the community of God's love we are implying that the death of Christ accomplishes nothing. I would not want to pray to, so much as to pray with. I refuse to reduce all of this to giving and getting which ultimately is materialistic.

May the souls of the faithful departed Rest in Peace and Rise in Glory!

 

[BobRyan]

I don't get this 'pray to' business. Surely if we cannot continue to share in the community of God's love we are implying that the death of Christ accomplishes nothing. I would not want to pray to, so much as to pray with

So then the Anglican church has no document or statement encouraging its members to pray to departed loved ones, saints?

The question is pretty basic. For example both Anglicans and Southern Baptists will say they believe that everyone has an immortal soul and is alive while being described by Paul as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - but if you ask about the SBC telling people it is ok to pray to the dead, pray to departed loved ones, pray to the saints... etc. The simple answer will always be "no".

 

[BobRyan]

May the souls of the faithful departed Rest in Peace and Rise in Glory!

almost every denomination (including the Seventh-day Adventists) could find agreement with that statement.

If presumably they are resting in peace - then they are not being prayed to, asked to solve problems on earth or assist people in some project, nor are they in torment awaiting entry into haven and hoping to be benefited by someone on earth trying to pray them out of their torment

 

[mmksparbud]

Even if the "dead in Christ" were actually with Christ in heaven after death, how does anyone know when an individual is really saved or not? It's one thing to think you, yourself, are saved--
but someone else? No one but God knows the heart, no one but God decides who is saved and who is lost. No one can possibly know that their sainted aunt has gone to heaven for that sainted aunt might have been a closet serial killer, and wonderful, kindly old grandpa might have been a child molester. There is no such thing as anyone knowing who is saved or lost and therefore you don't know that you are really praying to a saint or sinner.

 

[Philip_B]

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
John Donne Holy Sonnets​

John Donne, Dean of St Paul's 1621-1631, and certainly no friend of the Catholics, yet his poem in Holy Sonnets I have printed above in many senses I suspect touches on what most Anglicans believe about death.

I have just looked up the Westminster Confession of Faith, and my immediate impression is that to some extent it seems moulded after the Thirty Nine Articles - which is not for us a Confessional Statement - adding what they believe to be missing and omitting that for which they cared little, and as such significantly changing from the inclusive nature of the Thirty Nine Articles to a more specific and exclusive statement.

Chapter XXVI
Of the Communion of Saints

1. All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory: and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as do conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.
2. Saints by profession are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offers opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.
3. This communion which the saints have with Christ, does not make them in any wise partakers of the substance of His Godhead; or to be equal with Christ in any respect: either of which to affirm is impious and blasphemous. Nor does their communion one with another, as saints, take away, or infringe the title or propriety which each man has in his goods and possessions.

Westminster Confession of Faith
​

I quite liked this statement which in some aspects has borrowed phrases and ideas in the Thirty Nine, yet has clearly extended to notion of the communion of saints in a holistic and helpful way.

I recall being taught of the Church as Glorious and Victorious in Heaven, of the Church as Militant here on Earth (and sometimes a bit to militant for my liking), and the Church Expectant awaiting the return of Jesus, yet like the Holy Trinity this is not three Churches but one Church, understood always to be at one in prayer, in communion with our Saviour and Redeemer, Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Matter matters, but it is not the only thing that matters.

I think it is ingenues and defeatist to conclude that physical death destroys communion and brings an end to prayer.

 

[Philip_B]

So then the Anglican church has no document or statement encouraging its members to pray to departed loved ones, saints?
The question is pretty basic. For example both Anglicans and Southern Baptists will say they believe that everyone has an immortal soul and is alive while being described by Paul as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - but if you ask about the SBC telling people it is ok to pray to the dead, pray to departed loved ones, pray to the saints... etc. The simple answer will always be "no".

I am not sure that the anthropology you suggest is as I would understand it. I would probably prefer to say that everyone physically alive has a body. To reiterate my earlier statements that you do not seem to get, I don't talk about praying to but rather praying with. To exclude the physically dead from our life of prayer seems to me to give death more victory than it deserves.

The Anglican Church has no end of documents, which laid end to end would never reach a conclusion, however the Anglican Church is not defined by documents. We receive the canon of scripture and the believe the creed. The Thirty Nine Articles in a non-binding kind of way will give you an idea of what we believe.

An example of the non-binding nature of that is clear in Article 19 where it says As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, so also the Church of Rome hath erred, whilst not being specific one is left to conclude that Alexandria was thought to have erred at Chalcedon 451 where the were accused of being Monophysite - where as our more recent paper in Dialogue with the Oriental Church recognises that this was indeed in error and that they were truly Miaphysite and as such Article 19 may well be ary on that matter. (PS I am still trying to work out how Constantinople got off the hook there in Article 19)

There is more that unites us than tears us apart!

 

[BobRyan]

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
John Donne Holy Sonnets​

John Donne, Dean of St Paul's 1621-1631, and certainly no friend of the Catholics, yet his poem in Holy Sonnets I have printed above in many senses I suspect touches on what most Anglicans believe about death.

I have just looked up the Westminster Confession of Faith, and my immediate impression is that to some extent it seems moulded after the Thirty Nine Articles - which is not for us a Confessional Statement - adding what they believe to be missing and omitting that for which they cared little, and as such significantly changing from the inclusive nature of the Thirty Nine Articles to a more specific and exclusive statement.

Chapter XXVI
Of the Communion of Saints

1. All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory: and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as do conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.
2. Saints by profession are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offers opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.
3. This communion which the saints have with Christ, does not make them in any wise partakers of the substance of His Godhead; or to be equal with Christ in any respect: either of which to affirm is impious and blasphemous. Nor does their communion one with another, as saints, take away, or infringe the title or propriety which each man has in his goods and possessions.

Westminster Confession of Faith
​

I quite liked this statement which in some aspects has borrowed phrases and ideas in the Thirty Nine, yet has clearly extended to notion of the communion of saints in a holistic and helpful way.

I recall being taught of the Church as Glorious and Victorious in Heaven, of the Church as Militant here on Earth (and sometimes a bit to militant for my liking), and the Church Expectant awaiting the return of Jesus, yet like the Holy Trinity this is not three Churches but one Church, understood always to be at one in prayer, in communion with our Saviour and Redeemer, Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Matter matters, but it is not the only thing that matters.

I think it is ingenues and defeatist to conclude that physical death destroys communion and brings an end to prayer.

You have free will and are welcome of course to whatever view you like. My question was about the teaching of the Anglican church. Your poem seems to suggest sleep/rest-in-peace and waiting for resurrection. Which is fine.

However when the RCC speaks of "Communion of the saints" they don't mean that you and I are saints - they mean that some of those who have died are to be considered saints and they argue that we should ask the dead to pray for us, offer to venerate and serve them, and in cases where the person is not a saint but in purgatory - we would earn indulgences to get them out of trouble and into heaven. Thus it is all about "Communion with the DEAD" as they say. It is very specific to that aspect.

 

[BobRyan]

In this post I raise a very specific question and show an example of a very specific answer.

BobRyan said: ↑
So then the Anglican church has no document or statement encouraging its members to pray to departed loved ones, saints?
The question is pretty basic. For example both Anglicans and Southern Baptists will say they believe that everyone has an immortal soul and is alive while being described by Paul as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - but if you ask about the SBC telling people it is ok to pray to the dead, pray to departed loved ones, pray to the saints... etc. The simple answer will always be "no".

In the example with the Southern Baptists - they are not saying 'no - no one who has died would pray for those on earth' but their answer would not be vague when it comes to praying to the dead - no matter what the pretext/reason suggested for praying to them.

I am not sure that the anthropology you suggest is as I would understand it. I would probably prefer to say that everyone physically alive has a body. To reiterate my earlier statements that you do not seem to get, I don't talk about praying to but rather praying with. To exclude the physically dead from our life of prayer seems to me to give death more victory than it deserves.

The SBC folks would also never pray to the dead.

And like you - I doubt they would suggest that the "dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4 -- those who have died the first death and who rest in peace, should never pray for the living here on earth.

I differ with you both on the last point - but on the first point I agree - no praying to the "DEAD" not even the "Dead in Christ" of 1Thess 4. No bowing down to them, nor promising to serve them nor acting as if they are now all-knowing beings and can hear and answer every prayer prayed to them.

 

[Philip_B]

Communion of the saints

Whilst my personal preference is for the Nicene Creed, I recognise that as Anglicans we also receive the Apostle Creed which includes

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen​

My question, perhaps different to yours, is do you believe that those who are physically dead yet alive to God in Christ Jesus pray? And if they pray would you like to be included in their intercession or not? And if it is ok for them to include you in their intercession, why would it not be reasonable for us to include them in our intercession? Surely that is part of what it means to believe in the communion of saints?

 

[thecolorsblend]

They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

This is an interesting notion considering that 2 Maccabees shows someone making prayer and offerings for the sins of the dead.

Now you can accept or reject that text as canonical. That's not really the point. The point is that even hostile critics acknowledge that this text (as well as the rest of the deutero-canonical books) are reliable representations of history. So whether you believe those books to be truth (which isn't relevant), they nevertheless show us normative practice in history.

Meaning the OT faithful observed that very practice.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Whilst my personal preference is for the Nicene Creed, I recognise that as Anglicans we also receive the Apostle Creed which includes

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen​

My question, perhaps different to yours, is do you believe that those who are physically dead yet alive to God in Christ Jesus pray? And if they pray would you like to be included in their intercession or not? And if it is ok for them to include you in their intercession, why would it not be reasonable for us to include them in our intercession? Surely that is part of what it means to believe in the communion of saints?

I believe Adventists hold to the doctrine of "soul sleep," which would explain why they take such exception to our praxis.